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just to give you another perspective on the topic, try out different substitutions of the words "broodwar" and "Koreans".
For example: "should we ban Americans from playing basketball [in Europe]?" "should we ban Russians from playing chess?"
etc. if you're anything like me this will automatically lead to an answer to the original question. By the way, every country has tournaments for most sports, where they ban all other countries. They're called "national championships".
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This has been discussed to death........It's just not fair to discriminate anyone openly like that.
"Wahh Wahhhhhhh Koreans are so good"
Well take a second and think.... We wouldn't have HALF the E-Sports scene in BW/SC2 if it wasn't for them.
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Honestly this thread confuses me. There are dozens of lower end tournaments that already dont have koreans-- because our community is small, the skill set is low, and designed for a particular subset of players. I.e drtl, DRIT, CPL, etc. No koreans. The community already has tournaments that are meant to sustain and grow the community. If were just talking about purely high level players, frankly, I dont think Skizy or whomever are seeking easy competition.
Seems like a nonissue. SC2 had problems with Koreans destroying every tournament, broodwar doesnt. If anything our communities are already TOO separate.
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I think that it all boils down to the fact that this is the ' Foreign ' BW Scene, Foreign = Non-Korean ... So why would there be Koreans in Non-Korean aka ' Foreign ' Tournaments? Just because a Korean is part of the foreign scene, doesn't mean he/she should be able to participate in NON-Korean Tournaments, it is just common sense / simple logic.
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On June 13 2017 21:05 XsebT wrote: First, why Koreans are better is not really important. They just are. Second, by "banning Koreans" do we really just mean "ban scan"? I would not like that. Scan is an active part of the foreign community. Would he make some tournaments less exciting? Sure. But that's not a reason to ban a guy.
I really like this post, because it adresses the issue at hand.
As mentioned in the other thread, allowing Koreans never really was such a great idea for today's scene. It's quite small and you basically know everyone. The best tournament series and single time events generated a great atmosphere, both for viewers and players, due to this family-feeling. Koreans didn't really add to it, as shown by Defiler. You had guys like Anfod or Neagle showing up, either being arrogant, non-talkative and/or hacking in the case for the latter. There was nothing these guys added. Not mentioning other factors, such as lag, the language barrier kicking in and the general lack of interest in the foreign scene if it's not for a larger prize pool. I really do not recommend to add Koreans at all for generic events, as it takes a ton of fun and energy needlessly.
However, Scan is something different. Here you could actually argue about whether or not he should be allowed. It comes down to the organizer's decision to put him in, as he doesn't come with huge amount of auto lag, does contribute and speaks English better than some foreigners.
I also like the idea to host several events for foreigners only, since it might be really shitty to play such a good player non-stop everywhere. Face it, nobody here can or even wants to be "professional", therefore it's unrealistic someone will become good enough to compete with Scan on eye level in serious games for the next one or two years. The community has way too few dedicated young players to keep up with Brood War and the training regime it requires. I can understand the better players, when they say they get tired of getting smacked by him, as there is literally no other ground for them to play seriously outside an anon ladder. There's no gain for anyone, don't kid yourself, some measly 20-100$ every other week (keeping in mind that you can't predict at which point you lose to Scan in tours) is not such a big deal for most players, as by now most of us have steady paying jobs.
The idea to also host special events featuring Koreans and/or episodes free for Scan seems like a good solution. Just to test them out. But please, if you really want Koreans to attent, try to advertise these events in a fashion that's needed.
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On June 14 2017 01:25 GGzerG wrote: I think that it all boils down to the fact that this is the ' Foreign ' BW Scene, Foreign = Non-Korean ... So why would there be Koreans in Non-Korean aka ' Foreign ' Tournaments? Just because a Korean is part of the foreign scene, doesn't mean he/she should be able to participate in NON-Korean Tournaments, it is just common sense / simple logic. The only reason theres a foreign scene at all is due to connection and language barriers, no one actually wants it. Everyone would prefer to play on Fish. This community split isnt something to celebrate, it was never intentional. It simply happened.
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On June 14 2017 01:25 GGzerG wrote: I think that it all boils down to the fact that this is the ' Foreign ' BW Scene, Foreign = Non-Korean ... So why would there be Koreans in Non-Korean aka ' Foreign ' Tournaments? Just because a Korean is part of the foreign scene, doesn't mean he/she should be able to participate in NON-Korean Tournaments, it is just common sense / simple logic. Koreans do not ban foreigners from playing in korean tournaments though. Am I wrong?
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The problem really is the attitude. Obviously Scan has no challenge playing those tournaments, he is here for the prize money. So if it was 2 or 3 times he shows up and grab the cash that is ok. But he is here way too often to safely call that plain abuse. And to me, this is a problem, I haven't been educated this way.
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On June 14 2017 00:45 Heyjoray wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2017 23:49 lestye wrote:On June 13 2017 22:25 Heyjoray wrote: Why do foreigner wanna play on nothing but Fish, yet not want "them" (Scan) in their "Tournaments"? Ladder & Tournaments aren't the same thing Yes they are, you dont get pumped up in Korea, just to complain that koreans are playing in your "region". Koreans arent your personal sparring partner, who are just their whenever you like it. Especially when that Skill foreigner acquired is out of korea anyway It's completely different. Sparring isn't the same thing as an actual competition. It's practice and training.
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On June 14 2017 02:11 iFU.pauline wrote: The problem really is the attitude. Obviously Scan has no challenge playing those tournaments, he is here for the prize money. So if it was 2 or 3 times he shows up and grab the cash that is ok. But he is here way too often to safely call that plain abuse. And to me, this is a problem, I haven't been educated this way.
If you would like to state that I'm here for the money, then say it to all players who are participating as well. If you are just going to pick on me, you are wrong. If you want to point out money hunters, I can named them for you. Anfod, Neagle, and SonStar.
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User was warned for this post - Admins wtf? I expressed my opinion on this topic, and for what purpose it was created?
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On June 14 2017 02:23 LaStScan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2017 02:11 iFU.pauline wrote: The problem really is the attitude. Obviously Scan has no challenge playing those tournaments, he is here for the prize money. So if it was 2 or 3 times he shows up and grab the cash that is ok. But he is here way too often to safely call that plain abuse. And to me, this is a problem, I haven't been educated this way. If you would like to state that I'm here for the money, then say it to all players who are participating as well. If you are just going to pick on me, you are wrong. If you want to point out money hunters, I can named them for you. Anfod, Neagle, and SonStar.
You are the best example. If I was to join a D+ tourney every week end at some point I would feel bad about it, that's just me. At the end it's the organizer's choice.
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Korean's dont have any inherent physical or mental advantages when it comes to broodwar. It is just cultural and attitudes towards their dedication to the game. It is racist to try to have equal outcome instead of equal opportunity, which is what affirmative action really is.
Are blacks/hispanics just inherently dumber than asians? -No, but perhaps their cultural beliefs and values are different, one may put more emphasis and value in education which leads more of one ethnic group to make those kinds of decisions. We should judge a person as an individual, not based on their group that we subjectively decide on.
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Germany3128 Posts
On June 14 2017 02:25 greenterran wrote: - Admins wtf? I expressed my opinion on this topic, and for what purpose it was created? Other people who just said Yes/No and had no word in the discussion at all where also warned. It probably didn't help that you only registered for that post. Mods already said in the Filthy BW thread they would watch the discussion closely.
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On June 14 2017 02:11 iFU.pauline wrote: The problem really is the attitude. Obviously Scan has no challenge playing those tournaments, he is here for the prize money. So if it was 2 or 3 times he shows up and grab the cash that is ok. But he is here way too often to safely call that plain abuse. And to me, this is a problem, I haven't been educated this way. You can just as easily state that the foreigners complaining about Scan playing are only in it for the money as well. Is playing him and losing to him the issue? Or is playing him and not getting money the issue? Why wouldn't he be there for the money if he put the most time into this game and has the best chance to win?
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On June 14 2017 02:32 iFU.pauline wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2017 02:23 LaStScan wrote:On June 14 2017 02:11 iFU.pauline wrote: The problem really is the attitude. Obviously Scan has no challenge playing those tournaments, he is here for the prize money. So if it was 2 or 3 times he shows up and grab the cash that is ok. But he is here way too often to safely call that plain abuse. And to me, this is a problem, I haven't been educated this way. If you would like to state that I'm here for the money, then say it to all players who are participating as well. If you are just going to pick on me, you are wrong. If you want to point out money hunters, I can named them for you. Anfod, Neagle, and SonStar. You are the best example. If I was to join a D+ tourney every week end at some point I would feel bad about it, that's just me. At the end it's the organizer's choice.
Why does that lead that I am a money hunter? I always associate with TL members and audiences from my Twitch stream chat. I shared tons of stuff that not a lot of people knew/how to do some tricky micros, etc.
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Bisutopia19035 Posts
This is %100 up to the organizer. They put the sweat, money, and hours into making this event happen. That being said:
Message to players: If you disagree with the way a tournament is being run, then don't participate and politely state your reasons for not participating in the proper forum. Let the organizer be informed of why they have low attendance or viewers in a constructive way and maybe the organizer will change their ways. And if they don't, just show your appreciation for their dedication to the scene and accept that there is a difference of opinions.
Message to Organizers: I think it is very important for Organizers to try hard to understand and become familiar with the players that compete in their events. Teamliquid is very grassroots and everyone enjoys being a part of something great. Keeping an ear to the ground and facilitating good discussion is the way to be taken in by the community. Whether it is the Filthy Tournament thread or Where's moletrap thread, there is a lot of discussion around nonconstructive criticism. Now I know I'm not the biggest personality on the scene, but I get 0% negative/hurtful comments sent to me, but I do have tons of PMs with constructive criticism that I take seriously. And even if I don't agree I let everyone know I'm thankful for their time to care enough to reach out to me. Players are responsible for being really good at the game. Personalities should be responsible for setting a good example. As hard as it is, take the high road, love everyone despite their flaws, and the persistence will lead everyone down a better path.
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On June 13 2017 23:38 EndingLife wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2017 23:12 AQQuartz wrote: This is garbage Koreans are just better because they practice more and don't make silly excuses like this. Agreed. Instead of listing excuses, find a solution. You don't understand Korean so you can't comprehend what the players are saying during their coaching video? Learn Korean. You can't get games on Fish server because of lag issues? Get a better internet connection and or computer. It's not their fault that they have access these resources, it's your fault that you don't. Find a solution!!! In the end, we're ALL playing the same game here. Get real whiners...
You just found how to save the world. Guys, those arguments are the worst...
We should concentrate on the debate, what's the goal of those tournaments ? Having the best level in it ? Or helping foreign community ? If we wanted to have the best players in it we would not organize it on TL and we would need a lot more money because Flash and JD won't play in it. It's clearly to help foreign community.
Do you think allowing all koreans is helping foreigners ? If that's the case good for you, but please explain me how.
1week ago i played in filthy cup, i got a W.O in first round, then my opponent didn't show up 2nd round, i were in quarter final (3rd round) and had to face Scan. I waited 1h30 to play vs Scan who 8rax'd me. I'm not mad at him, it's the game bue how is that fun ? I could have played on fish or iccup or being with friends, but no i played in a tournament where there are no more players and got smashed without learning anything.
A lot of player lost interest in it, is it because of korean being allowed or just got bored i don't know, but maybe trying something different could help us to understand the situation better ?
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I've heard of a similar experience in the Yugioh community, where card shop owners would ban the top players due to them winning the tournaments all the time (maybe just a few tournaments, not all), giving the other players less incentive to participate if they didn't have a chance of winning. From a money standpoint for the card shop owner it makes sense, and of course in a free country a business owner should have the freedom to do business as they see fit. I don't think government has any right to tell a business owner they have to serve other ethnicities or groups for equality. I think the free market will dictate what happens to them naturally as their reputation will get around.
So likewise, if enough people are upset that the organizers are ostracizing some players due to them winning all the time, and if lower attendance comes as a result, they'll be forced to change their practices.
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On June 14 2017 02:34 EndingLife wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2017 02:11 iFU.pauline wrote: The problem really is the attitude. Obviously Scan has no challenge playing those tournaments, he is here for the prize money. So if it was 2 or 3 times he shows up and grab the cash that is ok. But he is here way too often to safely call that plain abuse. And to me, this is a problem, I haven't been educated this way. You can just as easily state that the foreigners complaining about Scan playing are only in it for the money as well. Is playing him and losing to him the issue? Or is playing him and not getting money the issue? Why wouldn't he be there for the money if he put the most time into this game and has the best chance to win?
Because the gap in skill is too big with Scan, everyone knows it and it is killing the fun, I don't know what more to say, we share different vision.
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