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On June 14 2017 08:37 GoShox wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2017 08:12 krooked wrote: So him being korean is irrelevant. Yes he understands korean and can understand what the streamers say, and play on fish with low ping. Its not really relevant, other foreign players have had this advantage in the past. Maybe people wanted to ban idrA back when he had been in korea, I don't know. But I doubt it was a discussion that was ever taken seriously. This actually did occur when TSL2 took place. I'm not sure if the TL people running the event actually seriously debated banning Idra but there was a lot of discussion about it here, since he had been winning a lot of events before that and was starting to show significant improvement after being in Korea for a while. Of course that situation is different than this since his job was literally to play BW, while here (I barely know anything about this guy or the current scene so correct me if I'm wrong) it doesn't seem that Scan plays the game for a living but rather on the side. Another note, it's interesting to see people consider a ban of Korean players as "racist". IIRC TSL and TSL2 had a rule banning Korean players, with exceptions for those that were living outside of Korea at the time (like that one Zerg player who was in the US when TSL2 started, w/e his name was). It used to be that the Korean scene was its own and the foreigner scene was its own and they didn't really clash too often. I'm not sure how things have changed in recent years. Edit: Found this topic which were the rules for TSL2: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/tsl-2/105526-tsl-player-eligibility-and-nongminzergIf we were to have a TSL5 on Remastered (one a million chance, I know ), who knows if they would use the same ruleset. But I think it is worth pointing out that this is how it used to be at least.
Nongminzerg is MAMAMU on fish server. He's Dream.T Clan. He resided in the US just like my case, then moved back to Korea. After that, he started to attend in one of the HongKong Universities in HK. His name is 김진형(BJ예림 Yerim for stream)
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On June 14 2017 09:05 aedeph wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2017 08:59 BigFan wrote:On June 14 2017 08:54 aedeph wrote:On June 14 2017 06:44 LaStScan wrote:On June 14 2017 06:09 TheNewEra wrote:On June 14 2017 05:34 KenZy wrote:On June 14 2017 05:27 CecilSunkure wrote:On June 14 2017 05:26 KenZy wrote:On June 14 2017 05:17 EndingLife wrote: Dat European logic tho... What do you mean by that ? Sure american logic is way better, you can't have access to all the knoledge from korean ? Lean korean. Okay. He means euro posters are showing some kind of superiority in posts. Like they deserve the #1 prize money. And yeah. American logic: you have a problem then fix it. Stop whining. Go learn Korean. That's a pretty American attitude. Seriously guys if we make constructiv critisism we are whining, and we just want the money ? Guys like Eonzerg, Trutacz, Bonyth, myself we played for 10years without earning anything but maybe 10$ we play because we love the game and our community. We don't fucking care about money, stop telling us we want the money, that's stupid. We just want the community growing and those tournaments are not helping while they could have been a succeed, we are just giving our opinion and making some constructive critisisms. Well then you guys should pull this through to the end if you want to boycott tournaments like Filthy BW Cup because of Scan/possible other amateur Koreans. If you want to have such a hard stance it's fine but then be firm on it. Otherwise it feels like as if the foreign top amateurs are hypocrits. For example: BisuDagger just announced yesterday an awesome series of 4 teammatches between Foreign Allstars and Team Ajae (basically the Korean OldBoys). Maybe we can argue about this but those guys are in parts legends and probably all on a skill level above Scan. But then you see the lineup for Team Foreign All-Stars. Trutacz is in there. And he has to play against even stronger Koreans than Scan. So what is the reasoning for this? I'm picking Trutacz now as an example, because he is really vocal about this whole 'Banning Koreans' topic but this may as well fit to other foreigners. I mean the chance is higher that Trutacz loses all his games, than just winning one there. Why is he playing there if he is heavily outclassed...(by the way he would get some sure money there, but not implying anything)? Don't get me wrong I understand the reasoning of the foreign top amateurs why they don't want Scan in the tournaments, even if I disagree with it, but if you don't have a firm stance on this and only cherrypick which tournaments/series you boycott because of Koreans, then these foreigners 'pros' will just look like douches. Oh no. Definitely wrong. Some Ajaes were good in the old history, but not in 2017. They struggle at C or barely get B. Yeah, they are so all bad right now, that they did not qualify for ASL3. What Scan was saying was that they aren't as good as they were in their prime, not that they are terrible lol. Oh, thanks for clarification, I mistakenly considered, that Scan disagreed about ajae players being better than him in 2017.
I do disagree that some ajae players are not better than me in 2017. I do respect their careers and high skill at their prime. The reason why I say this statement is I'm sure that I surpassed them.
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There are two points that I'd like to adress:
1) Morale. There were series of tournaments on old maps not so long ago "Old farts tournament" with some money to win. It happened to me to win 2 of them in a row. After that I had many thoughts of not joining the next one, to let other people fight for the title. The organiser may confirm, I asked him: "is it okay if i play in your tournament next time"? If i was on Scan's place, and saw so big discussion going on, I would definitely not play in all the tournaments. I would state to everyone, that I'm going to play every 2nd tournament, which would end the circle of hatred. I ask myself what are Scan's thoughts about it. He could end this hatred with a simple compromise, yet he chooses not to.
2) Entertainment for viewers. We have two sides here. One wants to watch foreigners compete against Scan. The other wants to see close, exciting games. No point arguing here. Everyone likes what he likes, there is no point trying to convince anyone in this area.
I'd also like to adress people who said that 'u can learn korean, u can buy better internet'. Let me rephrease what u said. Okay, I can learn korean, would cost me some, but I could do it. To buy a better internet, I would need to buy a new house with access to such internet and even then the ping wouldnt be satisfying simply because I live so far from Korea. I'd have to move to Korea. In other words, u're saying that in order to get better I actually need to essentialy become Korean :D Easily accessable with thousands of dollars to spend, which unfortunately I don't have.
The sad part about this is that there are 2 sides that could easily end this discussion: Scan and Organizers. It requires 1 step back to take to fix everything. And that's a hard thing to do. Not many people are capable of admitting they were wrong. Very often once they choose the path, they stay on it. I want u to imagine the scenario where Scan signs for every 2nd tour. There are no hatefull speeches. Every side feels satisfied. Casters enjoy what they do, so do sponsors, because they receive nothing but positive feedback. Players can both win the title and fight against the best. Viewers can both watch exciting matches between foreigners and the David against Goliath. Everything is in harmony... Damn I'm almost crying because the game we love so much is yet again on a fall, because we discourage Filthy, Schamtoo and other potential sponors from hosting other tournaments. We need to help it rise, people! Not weaken it!
And let me tell u one more thing. If I was rich, I would award players loyal to this game. I would sponsor a lot of tournaments, I would try to get new blood into this game somehow. I would.
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On June 14 2017 07:10 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2017 05:50 KenZy wrote:On June 14 2017 05:41 L_Master wrote:On June 13 2017 21:10 KenZy wrote:On June 13 2017 21:05 XsebT wrote: First, why Koreans are better is not really important. They just are. Second, by "banning Koreans" do we really just mean "ban scan"? I would not like that. Scan is an active part of the foreign community. Would he make some tournaments less exciting? Sure. But that's not a reason to ban a guy. I think you are wrong, why koreans are better matter. Would you like to see girl vs men in tennis ? or in boxing ? No, because it's not fair they don't have the same abilities, if the koreans are better because they play more then it's fair, if they are better because of their environment then, it's not fair. That's just life, life isn't fair. Most of the great Kenyan runners are born at altitude and raised there; which is great for increasing lung function and altering blood composition. Not to mention that genetically most the Kenyan runners have naturally favorable traits; small, highly placed calves, thin bone structures, etc. Nobody suggests to ban these people. In some sports, like golf, soccer, tennis, etc. a rich person can have access to a private coach and elite training from the time they are 5 years old. We don't suggest banning them. There is really only one case in which we except bans. Gender. There is always a protected female category, because the genetic advantages of being male of two overwhelming in most sports, and the genetic bases for gender is obviously damn near 100%. Any other advantage we accept as just inherent "luck of the draw". People will always have easier times being good at certain things compared to other people because of a combination of their genetics and their environment. In all but the most extreme cases (gender) they are not banned from competition. Again, the one side to this is competition by skill level. Many competitive activities do have skilled separate leagues and competitions. I.E. "open" league, then next category of players, then next category, them next category, on down to total beginners. Your comparison doesn't work, running is fine outside Kenyan, there plenty of runners. That's not the case for BW, I know life isn't fair, i wouldn't care scan playing in our tournaments if we had plenty of them and plenty of players but that's not the case. And instead there are less and less players in those 2 tournaments, i'm trying to help them finding a solution, i don't care Scan has an advantage, i don't care i'm not gonna have the money, but i care about the community. The players you are calling whiner, bitchs are the only one registring and playing in those tournaments, even if it's not even fun for them but just to keep it alive. And when we come with arguments to help them having more players you are all insulting them i seriously don't get it. Sometimes it's hard to be part of this community.... I most certainly did not call anyone a whiner, nor did I insult anyone. Calling someone a whiner is utterly unhelpful to moving a topic forward and serves only to anger people. Discussions are always better and more meaningful when the relevant issues have been clearly defined and understood, which is what I'm working to do. A very logical path to take would be: 1) Define the problem - In this case it's pretty clear, concerns about players that are too good. As I explained before, it's not a problem with koreans, not is it a problem with koreans who are too good. It's players who are too good. Admittedly, that's only koreans at the moment, but it could always change 2) Define why it's a problem - Most people are stating it isn't about the money, though all else equal I'm sure no one minds making a few extra dollars. As alluded to, the main issue then seems to be that playing against players of too high skill level results in lowered activity, because losing too much is discouraging, This, as near as I can tell, seems to be the problem with players that are "too good". If you think there is a different reason as to why players that are too strong is affecting attendance feel free to throw it out there. 3) Discuss solutions - At this point we have established that it's a problem when players that are too far above a given skill level play because many players find losing quickly in games where they feel they don't have a chance to win to be overly unpleasant and sapping the fun. Knowing that, we can discuss possible solutions, not to advocate these but to put down examples of possible solutions you'd have things like a) Increase the number of tournaments with a capped skill level, i.e. Max C rank on fish. b) Change the format such that anyone above C can play, but only at the very end as a "final boss" c) Host series/regional tours d) Allow B ranked players to play, but they must offrace x out of y games e) etc.
1) It is true that koreans are favourized in terms of getting knowledge. I dont know why people can't understand it. We - top foreigners dont have easy access to sources, we cant ask questions, we dont understand korean streamers. We cant speak korean. I'm not stating that if we would have, we would be even or better. Im stating that it's just unfair race.
2) Of course its a bit about money for these who can win it, that is normal.
Tours will survive without Scan, but will not without players in general. If organizers don't want to ban Scan/Koreans and other koreans are not coming, and the number of players is about 10 or something, tournaments will not last for a long time. Some people (some of them mentally 15years old) are imagining some words that havent been said by any of us that we want Scan banned because we can't win money. But we are these who are playing most of these tournaments, but tournaments are losing mid tier and low tier players. They have to offer something for them, because even if the top tier stop playing because they might be demotivated, bored of losing, not having a chance to win, any other personal reasons, lower tiers will still play if they find it interesting, because they dont pursuit the win so much. People who play the game understand that, those who dont will troll here and come with their fancy theories. But it has been always like that , those who dont know much about some situation, talk too much.
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On June 14 2017 06:48 TheNewEra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2017 06:44 LaStScan wrote:On June 14 2017 06:09 TheNewEra wrote:On June 14 2017 05:34 KenZy wrote:On June 14 2017 05:27 CecilSunkure wrote:On June 14 2017 05:26 KenZy wrote:On June 14 2017 05:17 EndingLife wrote: Dat European logic tho... What do you mean by that ? Sure american logic is way better, you can't have access to all the knoledge from korean ? Lean korean. Okay. He means euro posters are showing some kind of superiority in posts. Like they deserve the #1 prize money. And yeah. American logic: you have a problem then fix it. Stop whining. Go learn Korean. That's a pretty American attitude. Seriously guys if we make constructiv critisism we are whining, and we just want the money ? Guys like Eonzerg, Trutacz, Bonyth, myself we played for 10years without earning anything but maybe 10$ we play because we love the game and our community. We don't fucking care about money, stop telling us we want the money, that's stupid. We just want the community growing and those tournaments are not helping while they could have been a succeed, we are just giving our opinion and making some constructive critisisms. Well then you guys should pull this through to the end if you want to boycott tournaments like Filthy BW Cup because of Scan/possible other amateur Koreans. If you want to have such a hard stance it's fine but then be firm on it. Otherwise it feels like as if the foreign top amateurs are hypocrits. For example: BisuDagger just announced yesterday an awesome series of 4 teammatches between Foreign Allstars and Team Ajae (basically the Korean OldBoys). Maybe we can argue about this but those guys are in parts legends and probably all on a skill level above Scan. But then you see the lineup for Team Foreign All-Stars. Trutacz is in there. And he has to play against even stronger Koreans than Scan. So what is the reasoning for this? I'm picking Trutacz now as an example, because he is really vocal about this whole 'Banning Koreans' topic but this may as well fit to other foreigners. I mean the chance is higher that Trutacz loses all his games, than just winning one there. Why is he playing there if he is heavily outclassed...(by the way he would get some sure money there, but not implying anything)? Don't get me wrong I understand the reasoning of the foreign top amateurs why they don't want Scan in the tournaments, even if I disagree with it, but if you don't have a firm stance on this and only cherrypick which tournaments/series you boycott because of Koreans, then these foreigners 'pros' will just look like douches. Oh no. Definitely wrong. Some Ajaes were good in the old history, but not in 2017. They struggle at C or barely get B. Fair enough. Maybe not all are a level above you anymore but the point still stands in my opinion. Any FAT player is still the underdog against any of the Koreans in the lineup. So they shouldn't be hypocrits.
I've played vs a lot of those guys recently, PianO is definitely good. I dunno his ladder high from last season but he felt like an S rank player to me.
NaDa still has the ability to be really good if he decides to practice seriously instead of playing team games and ums's 24/7. Except for PianO all the other players are winnable games imo.. but obviously it wont be easy. I think it'll come down to how much each player practices. Kinda hoping that they announce the matchups beforehand so the foreign players can start practicing specific mus and maybe plan builds.
I wish more players would switch to 1.18, it's kinda hard to find good ladder games . It's been a month since i stopped laddering just because of how few koreans are on at my hours.. and when you do find a game you have to pray it doesn't lag. That for example is a limiting factor for a lot of foreigners who are trying to find quality practice and improve.
I don't really keep up with non P players but i dont think Dewalt or Bonyth are severe underdogs vs most of these players, maybe 45-55 max (unless they hit PianO). Not sure about the T/Z players tho.
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Im posting here like once a year but... This is ridiculous topic. Banning someone because hes better than you? If you want do european or USA or whatever only tournament just do it. But if its open tournament, just deal with it. If someone plays better, hmmm than leave it or simply practice harder.
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Lol, Filthy may leave or do whatever, but I'm not going anywhere. I'll be here for a while. I've basically built funding to do this for a year.
I'm here to build this scene. Whether you agree with how I do it or not, I'm thinking by creating these tours and creating this content we're getting ready slowly to handle the many people who will come in from Remastered. I'm building a history and a story. I'm here to lay the groundwork for Broodwar to become amazing again.
I knew it wouldn't be easy. I knew it would take a fight. It won't be in a few months, may take a year, but this is the beginning level. Gotta take out the ground before you can build a house.
My tours have everyone allowed because the scene is small, also I'm lazy and have very little time to do a lot of work on the tournament (Full time+more job). If anyone wants to build a better tour, go for it. Let me know if you need help. I'll give you all my resources, give you advice. I'm working with a foreign broodwar tour this very moment giving my advice on what i've discovered so far.
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One of the most important experiences in my BW career was the opportunity to watch a Korean ex-pro compete live at a tournament in Canada. What i learned there was invaluable and truly helped propel me into the competitive scene. Thank heavens their host didn't think like this OP. I hope with SC:R others in the foreign community can have similar experiences.
To deny entry/access to someone based on their ethnicity, well isn't there is a word for that... How small minded or selfish do you have to be to honestly think this is a good idea? WCG had the right idea. Location based requirements. We should embrace as much as possible the Korean scene not try to drive a wedge between them and foreigners. That's bad for BW.
I'm surprised and disappointed this thread is allowed to continue but people have been warned for replying No.
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Announcing the Make Yourself Feel Better (MYBW) BW Tournament w/o scan July 6th 2017 5pm PST. Scan is not allowed! No prize money, because it's about growing the community and not about money.
Only the most loyal members are allowed. Only the truest, most non-Korean players competing their hearts out!
The oldest and the most worthy European, Russian, American, and any other nationality can all compete in a completely safe zone, far from hateful speech and un-compromising Koreans.
Finally, Brood War can grow and become what we all want it to be.
Without further ado, here's our sponsor lineup!
~ ~ ~ + Show Spoiler [MYFB Summer 2017 Sponsor Lineup] +That's right! KeSPA has reformed in order to support this tournament! But not with money, just with hype.~ ~ ~ And finally the man himself. Scan agrees to play all games from now on until the end of his career without building a single Comsat Station. This will help the BW scene by increasing morale. ~ ~ ~
Everyone, let's make BW ... MY BW!!! It is not your BW, or his BW, but MYBW.
Tournament Rules :
- Scan is not allowed to play. Comsat stations are also not allowed.
- Koreans are not allowed.
- No money is allowed.
- This is a recurring tournament every month. The first place winner will be banned from each subsequent tournament to ensure the viewers enjoy the games.
- Everyone that participates, including viewers, must feel better. Otherwise viewers and players will be banned from future tournaments. The BW community cannot grow unless we feel better.
Cheers.
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On June 14 2017 09:35 NerO wrote: To deny entry/access to someone based on their ethnicity, well isn't there is a word for that... How small minded or selfish do you have to be to honestly think this is a good idea?
So u're saying that Filthy and Schamtoo receiving negative feedback, demotivating them from organizing tournaments is a good thing? U're saying that demotivating potential sponsors from creating more tournaments is a good thing? And please don't reply with 'so stop criticizing them', because I have no influence over other people and can't silence everyone's mouth with a magic pen. We should try to make both the sides happy. This way everyone is happy. You too.
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That "MYBW" is by far the best shitpost I've seen in a while. There's so many levels of cleverness at play there.
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United States9655 Posts
On June 14 2017 09:46 CecilSunkure wrote:Announcing the Make Yourself Feel Better (MYBW) BW Tournament w/o scan July 6th 2017 5pm PST. Scan is not allowed! No prize money, because it's about growing the community and not about money. Only the most loyal members are allowed. Only the truest, most non-Korean players competing their hearts out! The oldest and the most worthy European, Russian, American, and any other nationality can all compete in a completely safe zone, far from hateful speech and un-compromising Koreans. Finally, Brood War can grow and become what we all want it to be. Without further ado, here's our sponsor lineup! ~ ~ ~ + Show Spoiler [MYFB Summer 2017 Sponsor Lineup] +That's right! KeSPA has reformed in order to support this tournament! But not with money, just with hype.~ ~ ~ And finally the man himself. Scan agrees to play all games from now on until the end of his career without building a single Comsat Station. This will help the BW scene by increasing morale. ~ ~ ~ Everyone, let's make BW ... MY BW!!! It is not your BW, or his BW, but MYBW. Tournament Rules : - Scan is not allowed to play. Comsat stations are also not allowed.
- Koreans are not allowed.
- No money is allowed.
- This is a recurring tournament every month. The first place winner will be banned from each subsequent tournament to ensure the viewers enjoy the games.
- Everyone that participates, including viewers, must feel better. Otherwise viewers and players will be banned from future tournaments. The BW community cannot grow unless we feel better.
Cheers. This is the best post in the damn thread and basically hit everything on the head in terms of how silly it is. 420/69 satire would recommend.
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Yes, keep dividing us, keep enraging people, this is the right way to go.
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lol Bonyth. Nobody is dividing anyone except the idiots trying to BAN KOREANS
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No, they exaggerate some facts to prove their point. Players also don't want to appear greedy, because it's not a positive value.
I wanna ask everyone to try to comprehend that there is more than 1 way of looking at this matter.
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NICELY done CecilSunkure. The way you made your point is epic and I approve of your message! Banning the best player who participates in these tournaments or banning on the grounds of nationality is completely stupid! ;A;
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On June 13 2017 20:53 greenterran wrote: Ban koreans from tournaments
User was warned for this post
why was he warned for this post? there wasnt much content to his post but he expressed his opinion on the topic.. tl admins r weird sometimes..
anyways i think foreigner exclusive tournaments are a good idea because we all know the koreans are on another level, its like canada vs brazil in soccer. canada would get completely destroyed and it would never even be close to a competitive atmosphere. only a few very top foreigners can even maybe take 1-2 games off a real korean pro in a bo5 or bo7 series but hey im just a guy on tl so who tf cares what i think!!
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On June 14 2017 10:11 CecilSunkure wrote: lol Bonyth. Nobody is dividing anyone except the idiots trying to BAN KOREANS
Wow... so you didn't understand. Where do you see i'm trying to ban Scan ? I'm just pointing the fact that Scan at the moment is too strong and explaining why. And i'm asking for a new way to make tournaments because we don't have the best solution right now. If Scan play in all tournaments they are no fun to play/watch so i suggested some ideas, good or not for the best of all of us and with some of those ideas Scan won't lose any money, he will still win the tournaments with the most money in it but everyone would be happy, why would i be an idiot for that ?
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On June 14 2017 10:23 castleeMg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2017 20:53 greenterran wrote: Ban koreans from tournaments
User was warned for this post why was he warned for this post? there wasnt much content to his post but he expressed his opinion on the topic.. tl admins r weird sometimes..
It doesn't facilitate any discussion in a discussion thread. It is almost the equivalent of empty quoting someone, which has never been allowed on TL.net as far as I know. The topic is literally called "Should we ban Koreans from tournaments?" and his post contributed nothing in that regard. It makes perfect sense.
Kind of like this post
On June 14 2017 10:11 CecilSunkure wrote: lol Bonyth. Nobody is dividing anyone except the idiots trying to BAN KOREANS
Which is totally uncalled for. Bonyth and KenZy have both made their points and did it politely. People are getting way too heated over this topic.
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