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On February 14 2012 12:03 Jibba wrote: Lin hasn't played serious time with Stoudemire yet. That's an invalid argument to the Nash comparison. Everyone that talks about him being a pass first PG is flat out wrong, to this point in his career. It's an assumption because his skin is light and in the last 20 or 30 years basically every white point guard was pass first.
And he plays like Sam Cassell did.
I'm with this guy on all points (not just the quoted ones) except the Sam Cassell comparison, but more in playstyle. I only saw Cassell in his last 3-4 years, but Cassell was the best post-point guard I've ever seen, as in, PG willing to take a smaller defender into the post and back him down. The comparison just doesn't fit for me because in the 3 games I've seen of Lin, have yet to see him take anyone into the post.
As for the guys arguing he's a Pass-first PG, he's really not. I love watching him play because of the fact that he's an incredible story, but he's most certainly not a pass-first PG, he's taking tons of shots. Granted, it's on a squad without a lot of talent offensively at the moment, so we'll see how he does with 'mare and 'melo (yuck, 'melo the black hole.)
Finally, the Mayweather quote. It's about 50% true, the half that's true is there's other guys(black, white, irrelevant) doing what Lin does every single night, the -main- reason he's a big story is simply the fact that he was cut 42 million times, no scholarship, nobody thought he could do it, etc. (a la a Tim Tebow type story). However, there's a lot of attention lavished on him because he is Asian American as well (obviously, specifically from those of Asian descent!)
Anyways, just my thoughts Love me some BBall, and love watching stories like this!
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On February 14 2012 15:31 Jibba wrote: No, it goes both ways.
Uhh, you serious? Yeah, black people are totally passed over when it comes to professional athletics. No one thinks black guys can play ball...
Are you purposefully dense? Have you gone to college? Graduating with Honors from almost any program is a high scholastic achievement, and UConn is a top 20 public school with a very good business school and financial management program. Beyond that, the people who graduate with Honors and cum laude and above can probably achieve it just about anywhere. The US W&N rankings are hugely meaningless. Hmm, no i didn't graduate with honors but I did get a 3.4 at UW (and thats after fucking around and getting a 2.7 average GPA in freshman year) and a 3.5 in my Master's degree in Accounting.
Whatever about my own college career, I honestly don't think its that impressive but I only posted it so you wouldn't think I as just some highschooler talking shit. My point was never that Okafur's academic achievements were mediocre (my fault, I reread my earlier post and I communicated that pretty awfully). My point is the general public's opinion wouldn't have been focused on that because UConn isn't well known for its academic qualities. When people think of top colleges, they think Stanford, Princeton, Harvard, Yale, Brown, etc. If someone says "I went to UConn," people will think, "oh thats that basketball school right?" It was never because he was black that his academic achievements were passed over, its because the school he was at is not even close to famous for being a tough academic school.
In fact, it's ridiculous to suggest that somehow if Okafur was Asian that hed be praised for his academic achievements. People would be like, "Dang, an Asian doing well in school? Who woulda guess thatd happen? ....pfffff" No one would care. Which ties into my very first point. The fact that everyone thinks Asians suck at sports is the point where Jeremy Lin's race gets tied into this. No one thinks that black people automatically suck at sports, how in the hell does "it go both ways"??
His play has nothing to do with Nash and d'Antoni isn't even running all the same schemes. Don Nelson coached Steve Nash too. Did anyone start making Nash comparisons when Monta Ellis and Stephen Curry were playing under him? How Tim Hardaway? Baron Davis? http://www.bayareasportsguy.com/don-nelson-currys-the-next-steve-nash/
Also, Nash got MVP twice in a row starting the year he played for the Suns under d'Antoni. His most defining moments were with d'Antoni 2004-2006, so bringing up Don Nelson is a bad comparison in any case. Mike d'Antoni's team playing mediocre, gets a key PG and turns shit around. So far its applying to Lin too so I don't see how "light skin" is the natural connection between the two here. You'll have to explain to me where that came from.
Sure, I'll give you that the "pass-first" mentality of Lin is overplayed a bit because he takes it to the basket himself more than people seem to be suggesting. He's not exactly like Nash obviously but there are more similarities than just how "white" he is.
He was completely dominating the ball against the Lakers, rightfully so because the Lakers have terrible PGs. He tried it against Minnesota and it worked when he didn't have Rubio. He did it against the Wizard, and started gathering assists when they backed off. Assists are not the measure of how a PG distributes or dominates the ball, anyways. His passing is above average, but other scoring guards like Brandon Jennings and Tyreke Evans have tons of games with 8+ assists, and no one confuses them for a true PG.
He's got fresh legs during a shortened season, and he's mopping up when there's no one else on his team worth giving the ball to. We see big numbers from that latter combination all the time. One of his biggest weaknesses is how often he turns over the ball. From what I saw those mostly came from bad passes, but I would have to watch the games again to judge it better. I don't really know where I'm going with this part, but I think he is "pass-first" enough for people to play up his team mentality or draw connections to Nash. More so than his skin color in any case.
Well, I'm an Asian-American and I'm not pissed off by my post, so is that a start? Again you're gonna have to explain to me why, as an Asian-American, you would ever bring up our skin tone as a reason for a fellow Asian-American's success. I mean, if it was obvious then I wouldn't bring up any issues with it, but in this case it seems like you would have had to make an effort to draw that connection between Lin and Nash. I'm not even mad at this point and I'm sorry for my earlier rage-filled post. Right now I'm just a little confused.
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I believe Mayweather said that being Asian was the ONLY reason he was getting all this attention and I think that's what most people have problems with. Anyone with half a brain knows that when you tear away the hype that Lin is probably just a 'good' basketball player. Not a savior and certainly not on the same level as elite PGs in the NBA.
But if you knew about his story as I do and by now everyone sure as heck does, you can't help but be inspired. These past 5 games have been nothing short of magical considering what was happening to that Knicks team. As I see it, being Asian was one of MANY things, the couch, the constant rejections, the amazing streak of 5 wins and the stats and records he's accumulated in this short amount of time, and the way he just exploded into the scene is what's creating this frenzy.
If he was putting up 10 points and the Knicks were 0-5 or something then there would be no hype; no Linsanity. It really was quite the suckerpunch.
Just know that everything was completely STACKED against Jeremy Lin. Most people in his position would have called it quits long ago and just got a desk job to make mom and dad happy. This type of story is extremely rare. Tim Tebow doesn't even come close to being in the same level as far as comparisons go. The dude got drafted even though everyone knew he sucked at QB. Lin for all his pre-NBA success didn't so much as get a look. So it's kinda funny when Mayweather says that it's only because he's Asian. Well guess what? Being Asian was probably why he was overlooked for so long in the first place.
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it is obviously a bit of both. he is a player that came out of nowhere (underrated and tough road) and won for the knicks. also he is asian so there is azn fever (first taiwanese in nba). it's both, people who say otherwise are kidding themselves. AND tbh it ain't a bad thing. good for nba, good for asia and love for everyone. so who cares folks just enjoy the jeremy lin show!
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On February 14 2012 16:13 feanor1 wrote:Anyhow surprised that I didn't see anything in the thread about how big of a douche Jason Whitlock is, going by other incidents he should of possibly lost his job for that tweet, or at least been publicly shamed. Since he a "journalist" he shouldn't be able to get away with . Whitlock is the one of the worst sports reporters in history, and a huge racist himself. Almost every article he writes exposes it.
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I hate this dude already and it has nothing to do with him personally. It's the fact that people are bringing up Tim Tebow again every day...
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On February 14 2012 16:35 Supamang wrote: No one thinks that black people automatically suck at sports, how in the hell does "it go both ways"?? That's exactly how. There's a stereotype that black athletes don't work hard for their careers, but have simply been imbued with natural talent.
Sure, I'll give you that the "pass-first" mentality of Lin is overplayed a bit because he takes it to the basket himself more than people seem to be suggesting. He's not exactly like Nash obviously but there are more similarities than just how "white" he is. They have the same coach and by the end of tonight, they will have started a game with the same PF, and they both play PG. That's literally the only comparison between their play style and attributes.
Ignore the Nash comparison for a moment. What about the Stockton comparison? Magic Johnson and others have said he plays like John Stockton too. A guy who averaged 10 less shots per game than Lin, 3 less rebounds and 5 more assists. A guy who was always a shooting threat and never much of a driving threat. Aside from playing PG, where does John Stockton fit with Jeremy Lin?
The comparison is Jeremy Lin with John Stockton/Steve Nash. Now Nash and Stockton, I can see, although Nash is far more athletic. And if you really want to stick to the D'Antoni route, Lin and Nash had the same coach. Lin and Stockton? Steve Nash has the potential to score in similar ways, but the big scoring nights Stockton had were all from the 3 point line. The only thing similar between those two together is the position they play, and a hexadecimal value.
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On February 14 2012 22:12 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 16:35 Supamang wrote: No one thinks that black people automatically suck at sports, how in the hell does "it go both ways"?? That's exactly how. There's a stereotype that black athletes don't work hard for their careers, but have simply been imbued with natural talent. Show nested quote +Sure, I'll give you that the "pass-first" mentality of Lin is overplayed a bit because he takes it to the basket himself more than people seem to be suggesting. He's not exactly like Nash obviously but there are more similarities than just how "white" he is. They have the same coach and by the end of tonight, they will have started a game with the same PF, and they both play PG. That's literally the only comparison between their play style and attributes. Ignore the Nash comparison for a moment. What about the Stockton comparison? Magic Johnson and others have said he plays like John Stockton too. A guy who averaged 10 less shots per game than Lin, 3 less rebounds and 5 more assists. A guy who was always a shooting threat and never much of a driving threat. Aside from playing PG, where does John Stockton fit with Jeremy Lin? The comparison is Jeremy Lin with John Stockton/Steve Nash. Now Nash and Stockton, I can see, although Nash is far more athletic. And if you really want to stick to the D'Antoni route, Lin and Nash had the same coach. Lin and Stockton? Steve Nash has the potential to score in similar ways, but the big scoring nights Stockton had were all from the 3 point line. The only thing similar between those two together is the position they play, and a hexadecimal value. I don't think it's racist to compare Lin with Nash. Even your points alone are more similarity than any two given contemporary starters (that I can think of) have in common. Same coach, running same plays with same player.
Addtionally, the difference in stats between their assist/shot ratio is alternatively explained by the nature of the pick and roll and the fact that Lin is new and has so far been underestimated. A well executed PR forces a mismatch favoring either the PG or the screen. Whether you take the shot or whether you pass the ball down is a decision that depends entirely on whether the PG or the screen's position is more favorable after the cut. The assumption that Lin would favor the pass may be the precise reason he's been so successful at field goals. Defense favoring the PG mismatch over the screen gives Lin many open shots or weakly positioned rotations vulnerable for penetration.
The fact that Nash and what Lin has shown over the past two weeks represent a very active style of play, as compared to arguably more boring isolation plays is a very striking similarity. Also as one of the most respected PGs in the league, Nash is a very complimentary target for comparison for any up and coming PG, regardless of race.
So yeah.... it's tough to ignore the Nash comparison when it's such a compelling one.
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I will somewhat put up with Nash comparisons because Nash is a slasher and just very active like Lin, and they have been under the same head coach(sure, different systems, players etc, but many bandwagon people won't see that), but these Stockton comparisons are 100% racist.
If you want a good comparison, I think Tony Parker of about 5 years ago is a good comparison. Very good at getting the ball up off of drives, mediocre shooter, but very active, and a relentless attacker that knows both how to pass and finish.
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On February 14 2012 14:32 jjun212 wrote: Some journalist said it best I think;
When Tiger Woods created a lot of hype; it was mainly because an African American person was doing well in what most people would call a "White" sport.
Of course, we all know Tiger did more than create hype; he's actually probably the most legendary golfer.. But still.. would he receive the same hype if he was white? I personally don't think so. He would get respect from the golfing community but would the African American community care? Lol.. probably not. If Tiger Woods were white, I'm sure African Americans would just think.. it's just another white dude playing some white sport, whatever.
But the fact that Tiger is African American only added to his legacy. If that's ok for people to accept..
Then it should be ok for people to accept the hype for J.Lin. Most people I talk to seem to be fine with that.. but Mayweather.. what an ass. Also, you do realize that Tiger Woods is half asian and only a quarter black, right? I don't remember any "Golfing Sensasian!" articles about Woods. The public's emphasis is on appearance, not ethnicity.
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On February 14 2012 07:27 zulu_nation8 wrote:This guy is delusional, NBA execs err all the time in judging talent, this isn't even drafting a bust with a high pick or overpaying an overrated player, the Jeremy Lin situation was releasing an undrafted point guard while having Ellis/Curry who were and are both stars in the league and in Steph Curry's case, will be Lin's best case scenario if he keeps it up. Of course Curry/Monta are stars but the point is have you seen what the execs have been saying? The owner tries throwing the blame on the former head coach Keith Smart and saying "he didn't give him a chance", its the constant deflecting of blame for losing their second most marketable player with the ability to drop 38 points or 8+ assists on a night. He's not delusional he's dead on about the fact nobody wants to say "yeah we released him for the 400k more cap room that didn't pan out whatsoever in free agency"
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On February 14 2012 08:31 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:53 ItsMeDomLee wrote:On February 14 2012 06:30 broz0rs wrote:lol scumbag Floyd Mayweather http://twitter.com/#!/FloydMayweatherFloyd Mayweather Jeremy Lin is a good player but all the hype is because he's Asian. Black players do what he does every night and don't get the same praise. If only Floyd could point out all these black players that go through college without a basketball scholarship at an Ivy League school and dominate out of nowhere in the NBA after going undrafted. http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/malonma01.htmlYou need a lot of money to go to an Ivy League school without a scholarship, and that's the main barrier for most players. And if Lin had gone to Stanford or Syracuse or Florida State, he'd still receive the same amount of hype for being an Asian American. I don't think anything is fundamentally wrong with what Mayweather said. Emeka Okafor graduated in 3 years with honors and a 3.8 GPA in finance. It got some play at the time, but really no one cares about it. If he were Asian or Jewish (remember Tamir Goodman, "The Jewish Jordan"?) or some other underrepresented group, it'd be huge. It shouldn't be a knock against anyone though, it seems pretty natural to root for someone from your ethnicity, location, religion, school, hobby, etc. What's probably more racist than anything else are the comparisons Lin is getting to Steve Nash, just because they both have white skin. Maybe I need to watch more, but I really don't see many similarities between them at all, or where people get the idea that Lin is a "true" ie pass first point guard. Granted, the Knicks don't have much offensive talent at the moment so someone needs to step up, but that doesn't mean you can call him a pass first point guard when he's averaging over 19 shots per game. Not to mention he's a turnover machine at over 4 per game. Nash is a small and quick guy that out thinks a lot of people and is a deadly shooter. Lin is not particularly quick and isn't a great shooter (at least so far) and he's not a small guy. I haven't seen enough to know how smart he is (he seems to have good awareness) but he's a 6'3" 200lbs guy who takes it himself a lot and seems to be a really good finisher. He's also a much more active rebounder. It really does remain to be seen how he'll fit in with Amare and (more importantly) Carmelo, because he's only gone through spurts where he's a pass first PG and the rest of the time he's been a bit of a black hole (just like Carmelo), even against defenders he shouldn't try going against. Honestly, anyone who compares him to Nash at this point should immediately be called a racist. The only reasonable point of comparison is that they're playing under the same coach and pretty soon they will have shared a big man, but at this point in time there's nothing else between them. Mostly people are doing it because their skin has a similar hue. If Steve Blake suddenly could make a Sportscenter highlight, he'd be getting the same dumb treatment. Although at least Blake really is a pass first PG. At the very least, he's got me interested in the Knicks because it's tiring to see the ball in Carmelo's hands all the time. I'll cheer for him and I'm glad a smart kid who went undrafted is putting on a show, but through 5 games he doesn't look like anything beyond a scoring PG and those are a dime a dozen in the NBA. EDIT: I like the comparison to Sam Cassell a lot lot lot lot more.
Didn't Okafor go to Uconn though? Which is like...in the nicest way possible, an easy academic school compared to others (Harvard?). I mean even Marshawn Lynch got a 3.3 at UC Berkeley when he played football there but you hear him talk and he is dumb as a rock sometimes. I don't really think looking into athletes with scholarships and star players going IN TO college, can have their grades examined. Okafor was one of the top 10 HS players going into college and was the #1 that didn't enter the NBA Draft out of HS, schools do protect their athletes (doesn't mean 3.8 with honors but I don't look into a 3.8 at Uconn the same as Lin's 3.0 or 3.2 he says, at Harvard). Like I said, watch Marshawn Lynch interviews and tell me how he gets a 3.3 at Berkeley
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You guys are arguing the wrong thing completely. We need to figure out if he is Chinese or exiled Taiwanese... It clearly says he is either Chinese or Taiwanese descent but it makes a huge difference and will change the fanbase.
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Only changes the fanbase somewhat, because in the end he is still an Asian American. His parents are from Taiwan so you could say he is Taiwanese American but its the American born Asian part of it that resonates the most.
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On February 15 2012 01:04 needcomputer wrote: You guys are arguing the wrong thing completely. We need to figure out if he is Chinese or exiled Taiwanese... It clearly says he is either Chinese or Taiwanese descent but it makes a huge difference and will change the fanbase.
He's American. He was born here 23 years ago (his parents moved here around 35 years ago). His ethnicity is Chinese (his mother is from China, his father's side has been in Taiwan for two generations, having emigrated from China). He's not aboriginal Taiwanese. Wikipedia. So there's no question about his nationality and little question about his ethnicity (unless we believe that two generations on an island is enough to change ethnicity - which I concede isn't out of the question).
I don't see how this will change his fanbase. Chinese fans will say that he's Chinese. Taiwanese fans will say that he's Taiwanese. American fans will say that he's Asian-American. He'll (rightly) say that he's all three.
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I'm just impressed he came off of a couch, worked his magic, and went straight back into a couch for 4 games. He's a good player no doubt, but I want to see him stacked up against a strong, fast athletic PG. I'm not intending to demean his accomplishments, but Derek Fisher kinda sucks. He'd prove more if he was up against a star PG.
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On February 15 2012 01:56 Weedk wrote: I'm just impressed he came off of a couch, worked his magic, and went straight back into a couch for 4 games. He's a good player no doubt, but I want to see him stacked up against a strong, fast athletic PG. I'm not intending to demean his accomplishments, but Derek Fisher kinda sucks. He'd prove more if he was up against a star PG. You mean D.William and John Wall?
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Rewatched his positive offensive possessions here: http://www.youtube.com/user/shacmngCP3/search?query=lin
He deserves more credit for his speed and pace than I was giving him. Still not top quickness, but his speed is great and his quickness is good. And he is a great finisher. Awareness is good, but he forces more passes and shots than he should and sometimes has to get bailed out. Quick, low dribble, which is good.
I didn't notice before but he prefers his right way too much to his left. The speed he gets on long drives to his right doesn't happen to his left, and he doesn't finish nearly as well. It's also where a disproportionate amount of his dribbling turnovers come from. When he goes left, it's most likely a pass, or he'll try and cross over or spin back to the right. Very rarely does he ever try to finish or shoot to his left. Maybe 10%. His options when going to the right are pretty even between an easy pass (or lob) and drive. Going to the left, he's most likely going to pass it to the screener or try and drive back to his right. He usually ends up in the middle or top of the key where he might shoot or pass, but he can get caught in dangerous territory here.
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On February 15 2012 02:31 lazyfeet wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 01:56 Weedk wrote: I'm just impressed he came off of a couch, worked his magic, and went straight back into a couch for 4 games. He's a good player no doubt, but I want to see him stacked up against a strong, fast athletic PG. I'm not intending to demean his accomplishments, but Derek Fisher kinda sucks. He'd prove more if he was up against a star PG. You mean D.William and John Wall? DWill has gotten lazy in NJ and he doesn't get help like he did before. I wouldn't consider Wall a specimen for defense either. I'm much more curious about the rematch with NJ because now that he has a scouting report, I don't think DWill will let it happen twice. Rubio has done the best on him this whole streak, simply because he played to his right and forced Lin into being sloppy, but Rubio is also way too aggressive with ball hawking.
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