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On December 14 2018 05:18 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2018 05:07 The_Red_Viper wrote:On December 14 2018 04:52 Charoisaur wrote:On December 14 2018 03:15 NonY wrote: If this is what the Koreans want, then they have to explain how having foreigners in GSL is bad for GSL and/or how having Koreans in WCS events would be better for WCS events.
I think that having foreigners in GSL is actually good for the GSL. And I think it's questionable whether having Koreans in WCS events is good.
Maybe for 2019 it finally would be okay, with there being so few Korean players now and with more and more foreigners being able to win games against Koreans.
But at a glance, it seems like allowing foreigners to play GSL and continuing to bar Koreans from WCS events is still what's best. And maybe the fact that the Koreans, afaik, are not even trying to argue otherwise, but instead are asking in the name of fairness, reveals that they themselves don't disagree.
Personally I can't help but go off on a tangent and think that Koreans have had it good for so long. People forget it's not really all of Korea that is Korea, but rather just Seoul. Can you imagine having a single city be the host of so many SC tournaments over the years, and many other esports as well? The rest of the world has no idea how nice that'd be. Especially Americans. At least Europeans have more population density and a higher number of progamers per capita as well. Anyway, total tangent. Maybe short term it's better for the GSL. Long term it's terrible for the GSL because foreigners playing in GSL makes it impossible for new korean players breaking through (We had Nightmare and DRGLing in the GSL before the foreign invasion - that's impossible now. Korean amateurs can't beat established foreign pros). That means right now foreigners in GSL maybe add some hype but once the current generation goes to military there will be no pro scene in korea left without new blood. I have no idea how you come to the conclusion that Solar asking in the name of fairness reveals he thinks having foreigners in the GSL is good for the GSL. This argument isn't terribly convincing honestly, even when sc2 had proleague still going there was hardly any "new blood" which would keep the scene going. There simply is no larg enough player pool on the lvl required to maybe go pro because the game and its scene isn't providing enough motivation for the next generation of gamers. I realize that there are a handful of players who play in some amateur tournaments here and there, but even if these players could maybe make it into gsl once in a while, that wouldn't really change things all that much. The problem isn't that amateur players cannot make it into gsl, the problem is that there aren't enough amateur players close enough to the skill lvl of the worst progamers in the first place because there is no demand. At the same time foreign participation in gsl actually boosts their numbers, people wanna see foreigners vs koreans, it is the most hype storyline in sc2 (if there is at least the perception of a fighting chance, and these days there surely is an actual one) So is it maybe bad for the few amateur players who are actually there? Yeah sure, but let's not pretend that it would give us actual new blood which would revive the scene in a few years. When sc2 had proleague going there was no new blood because the scene was fully saturated and there just wasn't any place for new blood. Now with more and more koreans retiring there would be space for newcomers but instead their spots in GSL are being filled by foreigners. And I realize that the amateurs are nowhere near the skill level of the pros but that's just because they have zero motivation to improve because they can't earn anything of it anyway. It's the same problem foreigners had pre-regionlock. Why practice your ass off when your getting beat down immediately anyways? I bet with you, if those amateurs would be able to regularly play in the GSL their skill would improve drastically. Don't bet, and u don't have to. We already know in before foreigners could not get better because of Koreans and lesser Korean pros getting smited by ONLY KOREAN PROs in gsl is the same shit, same situation We need code A back. no one could instantly become better by just only play against the best History doesn't support that
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On December 14 2018 03:15 NonY wrote: If this is what the Koreans want, then they have to explain how having foreigners in GSL is bad for GSL and/or how having Koreans in WCS events would be better for WCS events.
I think that having foreigners in GSL is actually good for the GSL. And I think it's questionable whether having Koreans in WCS events is good.
I doubt having 3 top foreigners in GSL for like one third of the tournament helps GSL in a more meaningful way than having 3 top Koreans in WCS would help WCS. Both achieve the same thing, some percentage of viewership increase. Yeah if a foreigner goes far in GSL the percentage increases, but I reckon Maru vs Serral in WCS would also make viewership explode.
I'd also argue that foreigners in GSL is better for WCS than it is for GSL. It creates hype, builds up anticipation to see that "Korean training" at work. It gives the players something to play in, because there's a ridiculous drought between WCS events since they are just weekenders unlike a proper league format (which I dearly miss for WCS). It gives them extra money and playing in GSL is a dream come true for just about all Starcraft 2 players. Foreigners playing in GSL gives them extra motivation to keep being progamers and it's at the cost of the Korean pros.
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On December 14 2018 05:52 Charoisaur wrote: I still haven't seen any evidence that it's Afreeca wanting foreigners in the GSL and not Blizzard forcing them to have them. GSL was always free for anyone wanting to compete in it, if anything you need to provide evidence that blizzard is forcing them to let foreigners play, that is the extraordinary claim here.
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I agree. I haven't seen any pro tournaments in both sports and esports with a system called 'Region lock'.....
Basically, means protecting their players because their skill is way worse than Koreans...
Is this really a pro scene? How embarrassing...
If you are far behind in terms of skill level, plz just get better.
Even UEFA champions league didn't region lock Real Madrid or FC Barcelona in their prime times for being too good...
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On December 14 2018 05:53 xsnac wrote: I find it a very bad decision to region lock any tournament at all. If you are getting farmed by Koreans, just get the fuck better, don't region lock them. Dota2 had times when Chinese teams would top the internationals but nobody proposed region lock or bs like that. We should have region lock Brazilians as well from football? We should have "region lock" Ronaldo and Ronaldinho aswell, because of the viewers, sure, and examples such as these can be invoked ad nauseaum, I am sure you, the reader can bring an even meaningful example of a nation that does overall better than anything else at a certain sport/esport. Such stupid arguments you guys bring to keep the region lock I really start to question if you don't fall for the "If you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes the truth." psych trick. Especially NonY and his arguments. Yea I totally agree. I also love it when the pro-region lock people claim they can't root for players who can't speak English. Like you know there are tons of international athletes who are immensely popular that don't speak English right? As far as I know Messi doesn't speak English, yet he has hundreds of millions of fans. I don't understand why its so hard for some people to enjoy watching Koreans play Starcraft.
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On December 14 2018 05:30 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2018 05:18 Charoisaur wrote:On December 14 2018 05:07 The_Red_Viper wrote:On December 14 2018 04:52 Charoisaur wrote:On December 14 2018 03:15 NonY wrote: If this is what the Koreans want, then they have to explain how having foreigners in GSL is bad for GSL and/or how having Koreans in WCS events would be better for WCS events.
I think that having foreigners in GSL is actually good for the GSL. And I think it's questionable whether having Koreans in WCS events is good.
Maybe for 2019 it finally would be okay, with there being so few Korean players now and with more and more foreigners being able to win games against Koreans.
But at a glance, it seems like allowing foreigners to play GSL and continuing to bar Koreans from WCS events is still what's best. And maybe the fact that the Koreans, afaik, are not even trying to argue otherwise, but instead are asking in the name of fairness, reveals that they themselves don't disagree.
Personally I can't help but go off on a tangent and think that Koreans have had it good for so long. People forget it's not really all of Korea that is Korea, but rather just Seoul. Can you imagine having a single city be the host of so many SC tournaments over the years, and many other esports as well? The rest of the world has no idea how nice that'd be. Especially Americans. At least Europeans have more population density and a higher number of progamers per capita as well. Anyway, total tangent. Maybe short term it's better for the GSL. Long term it's terrible for the GSL because foreigners playing in GSL makes it impossible for new korean players breaking through (We had Nightmare and DRGLing in the GSL before the foreign invasion - that's impossible now. Korean amateurs can't beat established foreign pros). That means right now foreigners in GSL maybe add some hype but once the current generation goes to military there will be no pro scene in korea left without new blood. I have no idea how you come to the conclusion that Solar asking in the name of fairness reveals he thinks having foreigners in the GSL is good for the GSL. This argument isn't terribly convincing honestly, even when sc2 had proleague still going there was hardly any "new blood" which would keep the scene going. There simply is no larg enough player pool on the lvl required to maybe go pro because the game and its scene isn't providing enough motivation for the next generation of gamers. I realize that there are a handful of players who play in some amateur tournaments here and there, but even if these players could maybe make it into gsl once in a while, that wouldn't really change things all that much. The problem isn't that amateur players cannot make it into gsl, the problem is that there aren't enough amateur players close enough to the skill lvl of the worst progamers in the first place because there is no demand. At the same time foreign participation in gsl actually boosts their numbers, people wanna see foreigners vs koreans, it is the most hype storyline in sc2 (if there is at least the perception of a fighting chance, and these days there surely is an actual one) So is it maybe bad for the few amateur players who are actually there? Yeah sure, but let's not pretend that it would give us actual new blood which would revive the scene in a few years. When sc2 had proleague going there was no new blood because the scene was fully saturated and there just wasn't any place for new blood. Now with more and more koreans retiring there would be space for newcomers but instead their spots in GSL are being filled by foreigners. And I realize that the amateurs are nowhere near the skill level of the pros but that's just because they have zero motivation to improve because they can't earn anything of it anyway. It's the same problem foreigners had pre-regionlock. Why practice your ass off when your getting beat down immediately anyways? I bet with you, if those amateurs would be able to regularly play in the GSL their skill would improve drastically. I feel like you didn't really engage the main point here, i am saying there is no new blood because young players simply do not play sc2 in korea. If anything what is missing is an actual amateur series where they can battle it out regularly, but looking at general online tournaments there simply don't seem to be a lot of amateurs in the first place. So sure, go ahead and change the system because there are a few players who maybe would be able to take a spot in gsl if they get lucky enough, but this doesn't actually change anything. People go pro because they like the game and are already investing countless hours into the game to get good out of pure joy and passion, in korea sc2 isn't popular enough to really bring in the next generation of players. Your impression is just wrong. Look at the unranked tournaments which where held this year in South Korea: 2018_ONPOONG_StarCraft_2_UNRANKED_Season_3 You can also scout aligulac a bit and you'll find quite some dedicated players with somewhat impressive results considering that they have no infrastructure at all to become better. If we learned something from the region lock, it is that players will get better and go on full try hard mode when they're given the opportunities to do so. Many Korean Amateurs are already committing quite hard - some since 3 years, some splashing into the scene just in 2018. But those players don't stand a chance against the pros from an era with teams, professional infrastructure, coaches, other players talking to them etc, etc. It's pointless for them to even compete in olimoleague because they will get smashed in the first round most of the time because even the washed-out veterans like Supernova are still profiting from their professional background. Rookie, Prince, domickc, Gamja, sonagi, Lero, cypher, Dandy, Stun, HHQuanTa, Soloist, SGW - to name a few. Those players need some space to take it the step further to get on a solid level where they can actually compete with the pros.
But at the same time, I don't think that Charoisaur's analysis of the problem is true:
On December 14 2018 04:52 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2018 03:15 NonY wrote: If this is what the Koreans want, then they have to explain how having foreigners in GSL is bad for GSL and/or how having Koreans in WCS events would be better for WCS events.
I think that having foreigners in GSL is actually good for the GSL. And I think it's questionable whether having Koreans in WCS events is good.
Maybe for 2019 it finally would be okay, with there being so few Korean players now and with more and more foreigners being able to win games against Koreans.
But at a glance, it seems like allowing foreigners to play GSL and continuing to bar Koreans from WCS events is still what's best. And maybe the fact that the Koreans, afaik, are not even trying to argue otherwise, but instead are asking in the name of fairness, reveals that they themselves don't disagree.
Personally I can't help but go off on a tangent and think that Koreans have had it good for so long. People forget it's not really all of Korea that is Korea, but rather just Seoul. Can you imagine having a single city be the host of so many SC tournaments over the years, and many other esports as well? The rest of the world has no idea how nice that'd be. Especially Americans. At least Europeans have more population density and a higher number of progamers per capita as well. Anyway, total tangent. Maybe short term it's better for the GSL. Long term it's terrible for the GSL because foreigners playing in GSL makes it impossible for new korean players breaking through (We had Nightmare and DRGLing in the GSL before the foreign invasion - that's impossible now. Korean amateurs can't beat established foreign pros). That means right now foreigners in GSL maybe add some hype but once the current generation goes to military there will be no pro scene in korea left without new blood. Just look at the recent qualifiers. Foreigners are barely even facing rookie-players there. The ones they hinder from getting into the GSL are mostly SC2 veteran players hunting for former glory or just giving it a shot just for fun once more. The hand full of foreigners competing in GSL isn't the actual problem for the Korean amateur scene. Having no place to show off and develop their skills competing with a similar skilled player field - that's the problem hindering them to get better. Locking foreigners out of GSL wouldn't hurt either, sure, but I still think that competition foreigner vs korean still is a cool thing attracting viewers from every region.
If we really want some new talents grow out of the Korean amateur scence to pro level, we have to hope for some kind of code a or monthly unranked tournament with serious prize money or a sponsored rookie team. That being said, I really hope that noregret's plan to invite some Korean amateurs to his house works out.
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Canada8775 Posts
On December 14 2018 06:03 narusensei22 wrote: I agree. I haven't seen any pro tournaments in both sports and esports with a system called 'Region lock'.....
Basically, means protecting their players because their skill is way worse than Koreans...
Is this really a pro scene? How embarrassing...
If you are far behind in terms of skill level, plz just get better.
Even UEFA champions league didn't region lock Real Madrid or FC Barcelona in their prime times for being too good...
Most professional sports league have some kind of hard of soft region lock, from the Olympic limiting the number of athlete from each country, to most of the national sport league necessitating a require number of national player on the team: MLS, CFL, KHL, even the Premier League has it. And I mean if we take your example FCB can't decide to join the Ligue 1 next season or go play in CONCACAF, they are literally region lock of every single other league outside of the Spanish championship and the inter-European club championship.
Region locking is a very common practice to facilitate the grow and the economic viability of a pro sport league. Not saying it should be this way in sc2 necessarily but it's not uncommon at all
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United States32523 Posts
On December 14 2018 05:18 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2018 05:07 The_Red_Viper wrote:On December 14 2018 04:52 Charoisaur wrote:On December 14 2018 03:15 NonY wrote: If this is what the Koreans want, then they have to explain how having foreigners in GSL is bad for GSL and/or how having Koreans in WCS events would be better for WCS events.
I think that having foreigners in GSL is actually good for the GSL. And I think it's questionable whether having Koreans in WCS events is good.
Maybe for 2019 it finally would be okay, with there being so few Korean players now and with more and more foreigners being able to win games against Koreans.
But at a glance, it seems like allowing foreigners to play GSL and continuing to bar Koreans from WCS events is still what's best. And maybe the fact that the Koreans, afaik, are not even trying to argue otherwise, but instead are asking in the name of fairness, reveals that they themselves don't disagree.
Personally I can't help but go off on a tangent and think that Koreans have had it good for so long. People forget it's not really all of Korea that is Korea, but rather just Seoul. Can you imagine having a single city be the host of so many SC tournaments over the years, and many other esports as well? The rest of the world has no idea how nice that'd be. Especially Americans. At least Europeans have more population density and a higher number of progamers per capita as well. Anyway, total tangent. Maybe short term it's better for the GSL. Long term it's terrible for the GSL because foreigners playing in GSL makes it impossible for new korean players breaking through (We had Nightmare and DRGLing in the GSL before the foreign invasion - that's impossible now. Korean amateurs can't beat established foreign pros). That means right now foreigners in GSL maybe add some hype but once the current generation goes to military there will be no pro scene in korea left without new blood. I have no idea how you come to the conclusion that Solar asking in the name of fairness reveals he thinks having foreigners in the GSL is good for the GSL. This argument isn't terribly convincing honestly, even when sc2 had proleague still going there was hardly any "new blood" which would keep the scene going. There simply is no larg enough player pool on the lvl required to maybe go pro because the game and its scene isn't providing enough motivation for the next generation of gamers. I realize that there are a handful of players who play in some amateur tournaments here and there, but even if these players could maybe make it into gsl once in a while, that wouldn't really change things all that much. The problem isn't that amateur players cannot make it into gsl, the problem is that there aren't enough amateur players close enough to the skill lvl of the worst progamers in the first place because there is no demand. At the same time foreign participation in gsl actually boosts their numbers, people wanna see foreigners vs koreans, it is the most hype storyline in sc2 (if there is at least the perception of a fighting chance, and these days there surely is an actual one) So is it maybe bad for the few amateur players who are actually there? Yeah sure, but let's not pretend that it would give us actual new blood which would revive the scene in a few years. When sc2 had proleague going there was no new blood because the scene was fully saturated and there just wasn't any place for new blood. Now with more and more koreans retiring there would be space for newcomers but instead their spots in GSL are being filled by foreigners. And I realize that the amateurs are nowhere near the skill level of the pros but that's just because they have zero motivation to improve because they can't earn anything of it anyway. It's the same problem foreigners had pre-regionlock. Why practice your ass off when your getting beat down immediately anyways? I bet with you, if those amateurs would be able to regularly play in the GSL their skill would improve drastically.
The only significant reason there hasn't been new blood in Korean SC2 is because it's an immensely unpopular game in South Korea. Despite being the third most lucrative game in terms of Korean payouts (behind LoL and OW), it can't garner any interest from talented youngsters because no one plays it.
Now, it probably doesn't HELP that foreigners clog up the paths to entry, but the bigger issue is that there's no difference-making talent coming up the pipeline. The scene doesn't survive because DRGLing grinds out an Ro8 appearance one day—it survives when you can get new, TaeJa or Life-esque talent who make an immediate impact.
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8716 Posts
On December 14 2018 04:52 Charoisaur wrote: I have no idea how you come to the conclusion that Solar asking in the name of fairness reveals he thinks having foreigners in the GSL is good for the GSL.
Not exactly what I meant to say if that's what I said.
What Solar is asking is that either foreigners don't play in the GSL or Koreans do play in WCS events. So either he thinks that it's better that foreigners don't play in the GSL or he thinks it's better that Koreans play in WCS events, or both.
But since he's asking in the name of fairness, it's possible he's not actually trying to improve either event.
So the fourth possibility is that he thinks it'd neither improve GSL to bar foreigners nor improve WCS events to include Koreans, but he thinks that doing so is a sacrifice that ought to made for the sake of fairness.
And since he's not actually making any arguments that his suggestion would improve things, but rather that's all he does is appeal to fairness, the implication is that he doesn't think it'd actually improve things. Arguing that it'd actually improve things is the obvious starting point.
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On December 14 2018 06:23 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2018 05:18 Charoisaur wrote:On December 14 2018 05:07 The_Red_Viper wrote:On December 14 2018 04:52 Charoisaur wrote:On December 14 2018 03:15 NonY wrote: If this is what the Koreans want, then they have to explain how having foreigners in GSL is bad for GSL and/or how having Koreans in WCS events would be better for WCS events.
I think that having foreigners in GSL is actually good for the GSL. And I think it's questionable whether having Koreans in WCS events is good.
Maybe for 2019 it finally would be okay, with there being so few Korean players now and with more and more foreigners being able to win games against Koreans.
But at a glance, it seems like allowing foreigners to play GSL and continuing to bar Koreans from WCS events is still what's best. And maybe the fact that the Koreans, afaik, are not even trying to argue otherwise, but instead are asking in the name of fairness, reveals that they themselves don't disagree.
Personally I can't help but go off on a tangent and think that Koreans have had it good for so long. People forget it's not really all of Korea that is Korea, but rather just Seoul. Can you imagine having a single city be the host of so many SC tournaments over the years, and many other esports as well? The rest of the world has no idea how nice that'd be. Especially Americans. At least Europeans have more population density and a higher number of progamers per capita as well. Anyway, total tangent. Maybe short term it's better for the GSL. Long term it's terrible for the GSL because foreigners playing in GSL makes it impossible for new korean players breaking through (We had Nightmare and DRGLing in the GSL before the foreign invasion - that's impossible now. Korean amateurs can't beat established foreign pros). That means right now foreigners in GSL maybe add some hype but once the current generation goes to military there will be no pro scene in korea left without new blood. I have no idea how you come to the conclusion that Solar asking in the name of fairness reveals he thinks having foreigners in the GSL is good for the GSL. This argument isn't terribly convincing honestly, even when sc2 had proleague still going there was hardly any "new blood" which would keep the scene going. There simply is no larg enough player pool on the lvl required to maybe go pro because the game and its scene isn't providing enough motivation for the next generation of gamers. I realize that there are a handful of players who play in some amateur tournaments here and there, but even if these players could maybe make it into gsl once in a while, that wouldn't really change things all that much. The problem isn't that amateur players cannot make it into gsl, the problem is that there aren't enough amateur players close enough to the skill lvl of the worst progamers in the first place because there is no demand. At the same time foreign participation in gsl actually boosts their numbers, people wanna see foreigners vs koreans, it is the most hype storyline in sc2 (if there is at least the perception of a fighting chance, and these days there surely is an actual one) So is it maybe bad for the few amateur players who are actually there? Yeah sure, but let's not pretend that it would give us actual new blood which would revive the scene in a few years. When sc2 had proleague going there was no new blood because the scene was fully saturated and there just wasn't any place for new blood. Now with more and more koreans retiring there would be space for newcomers but instead their spots in GSL are being filled by foreigners. And I realize that the amateurs are nowhere near the skill level of the pros but that's just because they have zero motivation to improve because they can't earn anything of it anyway. It's the same problem foreigners had pre-regionlock. Why practice your ass off when your getting beat down immediately anyways? I bet with you, if those amateurs would be able to regularly play in the GSL their skill would improve drastically. The only significant reason there hasn't been new blood in Korean SC2 is because it's an immensely unpopular game in South Korea. Despite being the third most lucrative game in terms of Korean payouts (behind LoL and OW), it can't garner any interest from talented youngsters because no one plays it. Now, it probably doesn't HELP that foreigners clog up the paths to entry, but the bigger issue is that there's no difference-making talent coming up the pipeline. The scene doesn't survive because DRGLing grinds out an Ro8 appearance one day—it survives when you can get new, TaeJa or Life-esque talent who make an immediate impact. We all know that we will never get new TaeJa's or Life's (or at least it's extremely unlikely) so we have to work with what we're given. DRGLing grinding out a ro8 appearance of cource doesn't magically save korean sc2 but it's still an improvement over the current situation where we have no new player doing anything of note.
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Canada8775 Posts
On December 14 2018 06:45 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2018 06:23 Waxangel wrote:On December 14 2018 05:18 Charoisaur wrote:On December 14 2018 05:07 The_Red_Viper wrote:On December 14 2018 04:52 Charoisaur wrote:On December 14 2018 03:15 NonY wrote: If this is what the Koreans want, then they have to explain how having foreigners in GSL is bad for GSL and/or how having Koreans in WCS events would be better for WCS events.
I think that having foreigners in GSL is actually good for the GSL. And I think it's questionable whether having Koreans in WCS events is good.
Maybe for 2019 it finally would be okay, with there being so few Korean players now and with more and more foreigners being able to win games against Koreans.
But at a glance, it seems like allowing foreigners to play GSL and continuing to bar Koreans from WCS events is still what's best. And maybe the fact that the Koreans, afaik, are not even trying to argue otherwise, but instead are asking in the name of fairness, reveals that they themselves don't disagree.
Personally I can't help but go off on a tangent and think that Koreans have had it good for so long. People forget it's not really all of Korea that is Korea, but rather just Seoul. Can you imagine having a single city be the host of so many SC tournaments over the years, and many other esports as well? The rest of the world has no idea how nice that'd be. Especially Americans. At least Europeans have more population density and a higher number of progamers per capita as well. Anyway, total tangent. Maybe short term it's better for the GSL. Long term it's terrible for the GSL because foreigners playing in GSL makes it impossible for new korean players breaking through (We had Nightmare and DRGLing in the GSL before the foreign invasion - that's impossible now. Korean amateurs can't beat established foreign pros). That means right now foreigners in GSL maybe add some hype but once the current generation goes to military there will be no pro scene in korea left without new blood. I have no idea how you come to the conclusion that Solar asking in the name of fairness reveals he thinks having foreigners in the GSL is good for the GSL. This argument isn't terribly convincing honestly, even when sc2 had proleague still going there was hardly any "new blood" which would keep the scene going. There simply is no larg enough player pool on the lvl required to maybe go pro because the game and its scene isn't providing enough motivation for the next generation of gamers. I realize that there are a handful of players who play in some amateur tournaments here and there, but even if these players could maybe make it into gsl once in a while, that wouldn't really change things all that much. The problem isn't that amateur players cannot make it into gsl, the problem is that there aren't enough amateur players close enough to the skill lvl of the worst progamers in the first place because there is no demand. At the same time foreign participation in gsl actually boosts their numbers, people wanna see foreigners vs koreans, it is the most hype storyline in sc2 (if there is at least the perception of a fighting chance, and these days there surely is an actual one) So is it maybe bad for the few amateur players who are actually there? Yeah sure, but let's not pretend that it would give us actual new blood which would revive the scene in a few years. When sc2 had proleague going there was no new blood because the scene was fully saturated and there just wasn't any place for new blood. Now with more and more koreans retiring there would be space for newcomers but instead their spots in GSL are being filled by foreigners. And I realize that the amateurs are nowhere near the skill level of the pros but that's just because they have zero motivation to improve because they can't earn anything of it anyway. It's the same problem foreigners had pre-regionlock. Why practice your ass off when your getting beat down immediately anyways? I bet with you, if those amateurs would be able to regularly play in the GSL their skill would improve drastically. The only significant reason there hasn't been new blood in Korean SC2 is because it's an immensely unpopular game in South Korea. Despite being the third most lucrative game in terms of Korean payouts (behind LoL and OW), it can't garner any interest from talented youngsters because no one plays it. Now, it probably doesn't HELP that foreigners clog up the paths to entry, but the bigger issue is that there's no difference-making talent coming up the pipeline. The scene doesn't survive because DRGLing grinds out an Ro8 appearance one day—it survives when you can get new, TaeJa or Life-esque talent who make an immediate impact. We all know that we will never get new TaeJa's or Life's (or at least it's extremely unlikely) so we have to work with what we're given. DRGLing grinding out a ro8 appearance of cource doesn't magically save korean sc2 but it's still an improvement over the current situation where we have no new player doing anything of note.
At this point we also need to ask if having a DRGLing or other new blood is worth risking the viability of the whole system. If it give the mid level korean (aLive, Deer,Cure, Gumiho, Leenock ect...) a few more years of GSL it may be worth it to have foreigner to boost the viewership. If they lock GSL they may well kill it faster and then it's gonna be only WCS and these guys probably won't be able to sustain travelling to the WCS stops.
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What if we ban koreans from both WCS and GSL, that'd help viewership even more.
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The real question is how to help SC2 scene grow? If region lock is removed, will it help new korean blood? Hardly so. Do foreigners strangle korean scene? Clearly, yes, just take a look at the GSL qualy: foreign landing party was massive and they eliminated whole lot of good korean players. For me there is no doubts that foreigners shouldn't be allowed to participate in GSL. I can take it as that were some extreme measures to save foreign scene. But the situation has been reversed, it's korean scene that could use some support now.
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On December 14 2018 07:03 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2018 06:45 Charoisaur wrote:On December 14 2018 06:23 Waxangel wrote:On December 14 2018 05:18 Charoisaur wrote:On December 14 2018 05:07 The_Red_Viper wrote:On December 14 2018 04:52 Charoisaur wrote:On December 14 2018 03:15 NonY wrote: If this is what the Koreans want, then they have to explain how having foreigners in GSL is bad for GSL and/or how having Koreans in WCS events would be better for WCS events.
I think that having foreigners in GSL is actually good for the GSL. And I think it's questionable whether having Koreans in WCS events is good.
Maybe for 2019 it finally would be okay, with there being so few Korean players now and with more and more foreigners being able to win games against Koreans.
But at a glance, it seems like allowing foreigners to play GSL and continuing to bar Koreans from WCS events is still what's best. And maybe the fact that the Koreans, afaik, are not even trying to argue otherwise, but instead are asking in the name of fairness, reveals that they themselves don't disagree.
Personally I can't help but go off on a tangent and think that Koreans have had it good for so long. People forget it's not really all of Korea that is Korea, but rather just Seoul. Can you imagine having a single city be the host of so many SC tournaments over the years, and many other esports as well? The rest of the world has no idea how nice that'd be. Especially Americans. At least Europeans have more population density and a higher number of progamers per capita as well. Anyway, total tangent. Maybe short term it's better for the GSL. Long term it's terrible for the GSL because foreigners playing in GSL makes it impossible for new korean players breaking through (We had Nightmare and DRGLing in the GSL before the foreign invasion - that's impossible now. Korean amateurs can't beat established foreign pros). That means right now foreigners in GSL maybe add some hype but once the current generation goes to military there will be no pro scene in korea left without new blood. I have no idea how you come to the conclusion that Solar asking in the name of fairness reveals he thinks having foreigners in the GSL is good for the GSL. This argument isn't terribly convincing honestly, even when sc2 had proleague still going there was hardly any "new blood" which would keep the scene going. There simply is no larg enough player pool on the lvl required to maybe go pro because the game and its scene isn't providing enough motivation for the next generation of gamers. I realize that there are a handful of players who play in some amateur tournaments here and there, but even if these players could maybe make it into gsl once in a while, that wouldn't really change things all that much. The problem isn't that amateur players cannot make it into gsl, the problem is that there aren't enough amateur players close enough to the skill lvl of the worst progamers in the first place because there is no demand. At the same time foreign participation in gsl actually boosts their numbers, people wanna see foreigners vs koreans, it is the most hype storyline in sc2 (if there is at least the perception of a fighting chance, and these days there surely is an actual one) So is it maybe bad for the few amateur players who are actually there? Yeah sure, but let's not pretend that it would give us actual new blood which would revive the scene in a few years. When sc2 had proleague going there was no new blood because the scene was fully saturated and there just wasn't any place for new blood. Now with more and more koreans retiring there would be space for newcomers but instead their spots in GSL are being filled by foreigners. And I realize that the amateurs are nowhere near the skill level of the pros but that's just because they have zero motivation to improve because they can't earn anything of it anyway. It's the same problem foreigners had pre-regionlock. Why practice your ass off when your getting beat down immediately anyways? I bet with you, if those amateurs would be able to regularly play in the GSL their skill would improve drastically. The only significant reason there hasn't been new blood in Korean SC2 is because it's an immensely unpopular game in South Korea. Despite being the third most lucrative game in terms of Korean payouts (behind LoL and OW), it can't garner any interest from talented youngsters because no one plays it. Now, it probably doesn't HELP that foreigners clog up the paths to entry, but the bigger issue is that there's no difference-making talent coming up the pipeline. The scene doesn't survive because DRGLing grinds out an Ro8 appearance one day—it survives when you can get new, TaeJa or Life-esque talent who make an immediate impact. We all know that we will never get new TaeJa's or Life's (or at least it's extremely unlikely) so we have to work with what we're given. DRGLing grinding out a ro8 appearance of cource doesn't magically save korean sc2 but it's still an improvement over the current situation where we have no new player doing anything of note. At this point we also need to ask if having a DRGLing or other new blood is worth risking the viability of the whole system. If it give the mid level korean (aLive, Deer,Cure, Gumiho, Leenock ect...) a few more years of GSL it may be worth it to have foreigner to boost the viewership. If they lock GSL they may well kill it faster and then it's gonna be only WCS and these guys probably won't be able to sustain travelling to the WCS stops. I see it exactly the opposite way. If foreigners stay in GSL the korean scene will die for sure once the current generation goes to military. By allowing current amateurs to make a splash in the scene now there's a chance that GSL might survive the departure of the current generation if there's enough interest in the new players
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Canada8775 Posts
On December 14 2018 07:25 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2018 07:03 Nakajin wrote:On December 14 2018 06:45 Charoisaur wrote:On December 14 2018 06:23 Waxangel wrote:On December 14 2018 05:18 Charoisaur wrote:On December 14 2018 05:07 The_Red_Viper wrote:On December 14 2018 04:52 Charoisaur wrote:On December 14 2018 03:15 NonY wrote: If this is what the Koreans want, then they have to explain how having foreigners in GSL is bad for GSL and/or how having Koreans in WCS events would be better for WCS events.
I think that having foreigners in GSL is actually good for the GSL. And I think it's questionable whether having Koreans in WCS events is good.
Maybe for 2019 it finally would be okay, with there being so few Korean players now and with more and more foreigners being able to win games against Koreans.
But at a glance, it seems like allowing foreigners to play GSL and continuing to bar Koreans from WCS events is still what's best. And maybe the fact that the Koreans, afaik, are not even trying to argue otherwise, but instead are asking in the name of fairness, reveals that they themselves don't disagree.
Personally I can't help but go off on a tangent and think that Koreans have had it good for so long. People forget it's not really all of Korea that is Korea, but rather just Seoul. Can you imagine having a single city be the host of so many SC tournaments over the years, and many other esports as well? The rest of the world has no idea how nice that'd be. Especially Americans. At least Europeans have more population density and a higher number of progamers per capita as well. Anyway, total tangent. Maybe short term it's better for the GSL. Long term it's terrible for the GSL because foreigners playing in GSL makes it impossible for new korean players breaking through (We had Nightmare and DRGLing in the GSL before the foreign invasion - that's impossible now. Korean amateurs can't beat established foreign pros). That means right now foreigners in GSL maybe add some hype but once the current generation goes to military there will be no pro scene in korea left without new blood. I have no idea how you come to the conclusion that Solar asking in the name of fairness reveals he thinks having foreigners in the GSL is good for the GSL. This argument isn't terribly convincing honestly, even when sc2 had proleague still going there was hardly any "new blood" which would keep the scene going. There simply is no larg enough player pool on the lvl required to maybe go pro because the game and its scene isn't providing enough motivation for the next generation of gamers. I realize that there are a handful of players who play in some amateur tournaments here and there, but even if these players could maybe make it into gsl once in a while, that wouldn't really change things all that much. The problem isn't that amateur players cannot make it into gsl, the problem is that there aren't enough amateur players close enough to the skill lvl of the worst progamers in the first place because there is no demand. At the same time foreign participation in gsl actually boosts their numbers, people wanna see foreigners vs koreans, it is the most hype storyline in sc2 (if there is at least the perception of a fighting chance, and these days there surely is an actual one) So is it maybe bad for the few amateur players who are actually there? Yeah sure, but let's not pretend that it would give us actual new blood which would revive the scene in a few years. When sc2 had proleague going there was no new blood because the scene was fully saturated and there just wasn't any place for new blood. Now with more and more koreans retiring there would be space for newcomers but instead their spots in GSL are being filled by foreigners. And I realize that the amateurs are nowhere near the skill level of the pros but that's just because they have zero motivation to improve because they can't earn anything of it anyway. It's the same problem foreigners had pre-regionlock. Why practice your ass off when your getting beat down immediately anyways? I bet with you, if those amateurs would be able to regularly play in the GSL their skill would improve drastically. The only significant reason there hasn't been new blood in Korean SC2 is because it's an immensely unpopular game in South Korea. Despite being the third most lucrative game in terms of Korean payouts (behind LoL and OW), it can't garner any interest from talented youngsters because no one plays it. Now, it probably doesn't HELP that foreigners clog up the paths to entry, but the bigger issue is that there's no difference-making talent coming up the pipeline. The scene doesn't survive because DRGLing grinds out an Ro8 appearance one day—it survives when you can get new, TaeJa or Life-esque talent who make an immediate impact. We all know that we will never get new TaeJa's or Life's (or at least it's extremely unlikely) so we have to work with what we're given. DRGLing grinding out a ro8 appearance of cource doesn't magically save korean sc2 but it's still an improvement over the current situation where we have no new player doing anything of note. At this point we also need to ask if having a DRGLing or other new blood is worth risking the viability of the whole system. If it give the mid level korean (aLive, Deer,Cure, Gumiho, Leenock ect...) a few more years of GSL it may be worth it to have foreigner to boost the viewership. If they lock GSL they may well kill it faster and then it's gonna be only WCS and these guys probably won't be able to sustain travelling to the WCS stops. I see it exactly the opposite way. If foreigners stay in GSL the korean scene will die for sure once the current generation goes to military. By allowing current amateurs to make a splash in the scene now there's a chance that GSL might survive the departure of the current generation if there's enough interest in the new players Fair enough, I won't pretend I have any particular insight on the future of the korean scene, both could happen, it's hard to tell what the viewership with and without the foreigner would be and how much Blizz is ready to put to keep the GSL alive for the long haul. But ya obviously if it stay like this the Korean scene is doom in a few year, at least on the scale it has now. Some kind of korean mini code A could be a compromise although it's not ideal, or if Blizz is actually ready to fully support the GSL then yes full on lock would probably be the best.
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Hot take, letting everyone play in both GSL and WCS wasn't fair to foreigners. GSL is a huge commitment for foreigners to play in since they have to live in Korea for a long period of time while WCS events are weekend tournaments and comparatively very easy for Koreans to play in.
edit: Foreigners playing in GSL are also playing on Korean ladder and with Korean players, helping to improve the Korean scene. Koreans playing in WCS were just dropping in for the tournament then leaving (with notable exception such as Polt).
Region lock isn't fair either ofc and I'd love to see it removed, but preferably in a way that doesn't completely kill the Ro32/16 foreigner representation.
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It's a straight up racist policy. I said this when it was implemented.
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On December 14 2018 06:18 Brutaxilos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2018 05:53 xsnac wrote: I find it a very bad decision to region lock any tournament at all. If you are getting farmed by Koreans, just get the fuck better, don't region lock them. Dota2 had times when Chinese teams would top the internationals but nobody proposed region lock or bs like that. We should have region lock Brazilians as well from football? We should have "region lock" Ronaldo and Ronaldinho aswell, because of the viewers, sure, and examples such as these can be invoked ad nauseaum, I am sure you, the reader can bring an even meaningful example of a nation that does overall better than anything else at a certain sport/esport. Such stupid arguments you guys bring to keep the region lock I really start to question if you don't fall for the "If you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes the truth." psych trick. Especially NonY and his arguments. Yea I totally agree. I also love it when the pro-region lock people claim they can't root for players who can't speak English. Like you know there are tons of international athletes who are immensely popular that don't speak English right? As far as I know Messi doesn't speak English, yet he has hundreds of millions of fans. I don't understand why its so hard for some people to enjoy watching Koreans play Starcraft.
The comparison with football not only isn't really appropriate, since football and starcraft have largely different world appeal and history, but it's also not accurate. If we want to talk about that comparison, WCS and GSL would be national leagues and national cups, while Champions League and World Cup (or similar international tournaments) would be the IEM, Global Finals and GSL vs The World. So, even if there are better teams, national leagues and cups arent invaded by teams from other nations, just for the sake of having the best of the best in international competition. Also, the World Cup often excludes strong european and south american teams but let asian and african teams qualify through their own tournaments, reserving them a spot, just like we have na and eu players spots reserved by letting them having their own circuits. And I'd like to add that the fact that the World Cup opened that way it's precisely to spread the enthusiasm and the appeal of football around the world, because (and here I'm referring to the cheering argument) you might not like it, but anyone has his on personal reasons to cheer or even watch an event, and I, for one, wouldnt probably been back following the SC2 scene if it wasnt for Reynor, who's a fellow italian. And I'd say, that's a valid reason like anyone else's. Also it's totally fair to have 11 koreans in the first 12 spots at an IEM, but it would be probably bad for the scene (viewership and players) to have all the qualifiers and offline tournaments with the top ten just full of koreans.
Now, about the topic. I think koreans have all the rights to call the region lock unfair, but that's not really the issue of their scene, and I dont think locking the GSL is the solution to help aspiring pros: for that I'd say a better money distribution and the return of something like Code A would be much more helping, assuming that these young aspiring pros are really there waiting for their chance. That said, I guess the only viable "fairness" would be to lock GSL, even tho my fear is that the viewership would go down, and in the end that would just hurt the korean scene even more.
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On December 14 2018 08:36 Warcloud wrote: It's a straight up racist policy. I said this when it was implemented. It's racist? Racist against whom?
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if I'm understanding the system correctly, it is a situation where we can have two players that:
-Both live in Korea. -Both play in GSL. -Both are talented but not championship-level, say they occasionally make the Ro16.
-But, one of them doesn't have the option to travel and compete in WCS.
And the only reason is... he's Korean? Am I missing something? Genuine question.
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