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On March 14 2019 11:57 jy_9876543210 wrote: Macsed's response:
"说下当时情况吧,第一盘打完我觉得这个人很菜,当然所有人都和我这么说,我也觉得他很菜,然后第二盘才会选择一个低保rush因为我觉得只要过去把他门口的兵营打了就能赢,但是我过去看到他家里有个兵营没开气我以为他要开2矿,我就封了他得气,一旦封了他拿什么打我低保?可我万万没想到他这个战术是rail教他的,因为在职业内战里面这种战术是不成立的,所以我就没多想。打完这场比赛rail跑过来疯狂炫耀说是我教的,因为他知道我会觉得他是菜鸟肯定会想快点结束,然后就家里一个兵营外面3个兵营来骗我。果真我被骗到了,当时被骗到了乱导致各种失误,但是我认为就算不失误这一盘我也赢不了,因为我家里已经挡不住了,他只要在外面开个基地农民传出来也是随便赢。哎都怪我,太丢人了" My translation: "The situation was, after the first map I thought this guy is weak, of course that's also what everyone's been telling me, and I felt the same. So on the second map I decided to cannon rush since I thought I could win by destroying the gateway in his base, but when I saw his base, there's a gateway but no gas, so I thought he's gonna expand, and I blocked his gas, so he can't stop my cannon rush. But what I didn't know was that it's rail who taught him this strategy, because he knew that I would try to finish this game quickly since I thought my opponent is weak, and he tricked me by one gateway in main base and 3 proxies outside. That totally got me, and resulted in a lot of mistakes from me. But I think even if I didn't make those mistakes, I still wouldn't win that map, since I couldn't defend my base, he could just make another base and recall the probes. It's my fault, this is an embarrassing game." |
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On March 21 2019 19:16 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2019 18:55 deacon.frost wrote:On March 21 2019 17:14 Shuffleblade wrote:On March 21 2019 15:29 xelnaga_empire wrote:On March 21 2019 13:34 feardragon wrote: My point was not “I think this happened”. It was, before we publicly condemn a player and end a 10+ year career and livlihood of a player, let’s wait until we hear their side of the story. I said multiple times it was weird and suspicious but that I believe in waiting to hear all sides because public opinion is not something easily reversed. I gave an off example of something unlikely but possible. Why are so many people taking this out of context? Thank you feardragon. Good to see reasonable responses like this. Some of the behavior in this thread is absurd. Like I said before, some people are so emotionally invested in seeing that MacSed is guilty, they are now throwing their pitchforks at Rotti because Rotti dared to share his opinion. That is absurd behavior and shows a lack of maturity. Very much resembles the immature behavior of one particular poster throwing his pitchfork in the face of OP because he dared to share his opinion and bring this important topic into the light. On March 21 2019 16:44 deacon.frost wrote:On March 21 2019 15:48 Popkiller wrote:On March 21 2019 15:06 Shana wrote:On March 21 2019 13:53 Popkiller wrote: everyone should keep in mind that this is not a trial and we are not a jury. Nothing we say here is going to affect Macsed's life, or anyone else's.
it's just a discussion. So, to say we think Macsed is guilty carries no weight, his career is fine. If there are any repercussions it won't be because of a TL thread, it will be because of an independent investigation.
so, in the name of discussion, I'll say that if you think a lot of money being bet on Seventy91 taking a map off Macsed (and no one else, by the way), and then Macsed playing one of the worst games imaginable (in between two much higher caliber games) is a coincidence...
I'll put it another way, if you were forced to make your own bet, of say $100,000, on whether or not Macsed threw that map, and you bet he didn't, you're out of your mind. Sangho disagrees with you. And lots of progamer where their game was deemed suspicious by community. https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/131156-interview-sangho-on-match-fixingUnless there are updates from authority, I don't think this thread should stay open. This has turned into witch hunt. I'm not hunting. Not saying Macsed should be banned from anything. If I were a tournament organizer, I wouldn't bar him from the tournament, not based on this information alone. Yeah, you're doing nothing wrong, just keeping the fire for to burn the witch,but you're not the one throwing the witch into the fire nor the one really hunting. How could you, you're just typing words on internwebz, it's fine, no harm can be done, right? + Show Spoiler +On March 21 2019 15:49 hiro protagonist wrote:On March 21 2019 15:20 xelnaga_empire wrote:On March 21 2019 14:19 hiro protagonist wrote:On March 21 2019 12:51 xelnaga_empire wrote:On March 21 2019 01:31 hiro protagonist wrote:On March 21 2019 01:20 xelnaga_empire wrote: [quote]
See, we are wasting time trying to figure out how Pinnacle operates internally and what they did or didn't do as part of their investigation. Unless a Pinnacle employee comes out and tells us exactly what they did and didn't do for the MacSed case, Pinnacle is a black box to us.
And if Pinnacle is a black box to us, then they found no fault with the MacSed match
Your logic is flawed. Pinnacle being a “black box” is not evidence of no wrongdoing. Your entire argument based on this statement is not valid. What IS evidence of wrongdoing is the betting line. Unless you, or anyone else can give me a logical reason as to why the betting line changed for something other than match fixing, then I suggest we accept that we need a real investigation. What investigation? Who will do it? WESG is silent and they had a chance to look at it already. You think the Chinese police will investigate after Pinnacle said there was nothing out of the ordinary with the betting? Good luck because I can tell you, that will never happen. Because Pinnacle said there was no suspicious betting in MacSed's game, the chance that the Chinese police will investigate is zero. Now if WESG comes out and says there was suspicious actions by MacSed, and/or Pinnacle reverses their stance and says there was suspicious betting, then it may be possible for the Chinese authorities to investigate. Until then, I doubt there will be a real investigation. But hey, you are free to fly to China to investigate. You can let the SC2 community know the result of your investigation after you fly to China. Good luck to you if you do! Pinnacle is based in the Netherlands. They have Laws there that protect gamblers. Match fixing breaks those Laws. Law enforcement there should investigate. On the SC2 side of things, Blizzard is the only relevant organization for an investigation. It’s in there best interest to root out anything that takes away from the integrity of the game. They should look into how the tournament was run, see if there’s any discrepancies, ask questions. You know, just some basic investigation stuff. They recently had to do this with Hearthstone with win trading aligations (and only after some strong public pressure I might add). They came to the conclusion that it happened, and responded accordingly. Oh good. Get Pinnacle to send us more details of how they determined MacSed's match didn't have suspicious betting that warranted a refund. I'm sure they will issue a second statement. You go do that! /s Yes, get Blizzard to investigate this too! You go do that! /s Yes, that’s what I’m doing now. I’m asking for an investigation. Don’t you want Blizzard/Pinnacle/relevant authorities to look into this? Shouldn’t we expect that when the smoke alarm goes off, we check to see if there is a fire? Then ask the damn officials. Do you realize you're here on some random internet forum? And as far as we know the fucking Pinnacle DID investigation. FFS at least remove the PInnacle from your post, it;s becoming pathetic. Ask the authorities. If you cannot ask yourself for whatever reasons ask someone in that country to file it so the police has to start the investigation. This is just forum on the interwebz, you can post here for eternity and guess what, no investigation will be done. SURPRISE! Of course what we say can have effects on peoples lifes, Shanas link was a great read that many that have posted here should read if you haven't. However Popkiller is not wrong in stating that based on the information we do have Macsed is likely guilty, you can disagree but that doesn't change anything. You think I'm a fool for posting my opinion and I think you're a fool if you actually believe that he is probably not guilty. In regards to your attack on hiro, how is it is his responsibility to contact the authorities. Maybe I should post the same message back to you huh? Since you seem to think it so important that someone contacts the police for an investigation, you do it yourself! The most critical thing you do miss there is that all of us here could contact the authorities and ask them to look into this but you know what nothing would happen. I live in sweden so I don't "really" know about the police entity in other countries but I doubt they are leagues and bounds better than what we have here and let me tell you that there are a lot of important things that should be investigated that is not. This tiny issue would never be prioritized by the police just because all of us calls them. You know what could make them look into it? If bigger corporations/organizations starts making their voices heard. We have no power here and nothing we do would lead to a "proper" investigation unless Blizzard/pinnacle/WESG pressure the authorities and why would they do that you ask? Because we pressure them as a community. The sad part is I think you already realized this but you don't really care if an investigation is made you just wants us that are of a different opinion to shut up, to silence us. That is more pathetic than anything hiro posted. How? I don't know, did you try going to the Police station and reporting a possible crime? It's not that hard, they invite you inside, give you a cup of tea/cofee or just water, then they will listen to you, write a report, you read it, then you sign it and then the investigation starts. Or go to a lawyer and get help from someone who makes LIVING out of this. This person should know how to report a crime oversees. Yes, this will result in YOU paying money for a professional help. Like, people, do you have any idea how the society works? I'm not gonna report anything, because I think no crime happened. But all these witch hunters who think crime happened should report THE CRIME TO THE ONLY AUTHORITY THAT CAN PROPERLY INVESTIGATE IT!!!! Alright, maybe there's been a misunderstanding, I will try to be clear. This is only a question to you, a basic yes or no question. Presume that an actual crime happened, just play with the idea that Macsed actually matchfixed. If I do report my suspicion to the police, if I do the above steps you so clearly spell out for me do you believe (presuming that he actually IS guilty) that the authorities would properly investigate, find proof and prosecute him? Remember this is a basic yes or no question, also I perceive your reply as quite disrespectful, please try to keep a civil discussion. Dude, they have to. Yes. It's their duty to investigate anything that can be a crime. Or you think, that if you file them a potential fraud, they will go - nah, why should we care and start playing games on their workstations? In what country do you live, you think this?
Edit> Of course if match fixing isn't considered a crime in the country there won't be any investigation. But that's something we don't change here anyway.
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On March 21 2019 19:16 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2019 18:55 deacon.frost wrote:On March 21 2019 17:14 Shuffleblade wrote:On March 21 2019 15:29 xelnaga_empire wrote:On March 21 2019 13:34 feardragon wrote: My point was not “I think this happened”. It was, before we publicly condemn a player and end a 10+ year career and livlihood of a player, let’s wait until we hear their side of the story. I said multiple times it was weird and suspicious but that I believe in waiting to hear all sides because public opinion is not something easily reversed. I gave an off example of something unlikely but possible. Why are so many people taking this out of context? Thank you feardragon. Good to see reasonable responses like this. Some of the behavior in this thread is absurd. Like I said before, some people are so emotionally invested in seeing that MacSed is guilty, they are now throwing their pitchforks at Rotti because Rotti dared to share his opinion. That is absurd behavior and shows a lack of maturity. Very much resembles the immature behavior of one particular poster throwing his pitchfork in the face of OP because he dared to share his opinion and bring this important topic into the light. On March 21 2019 16:44 deacon.frost wrote:On March 21 2019 15:48 Popkiller wrote:On March 21 2019 15:06 Shana wrote:On March 21 2019 13:53 Popkiller wrote: everyone should keep in mind that this is not a trial and we are not a jury. Nothing we say here is going to affect Macsed's life, or anyone else's.
it's just a discussion. So, to say we think Macsed is guilty carries no weight, his career is fine. If there are any repercussions it won't be because of a TL thread, it will be because of an independent investigation.
so, in the name of discussion, I'll say that if you think a lot of money being bet on Seventy91 taking a map off Macsed (and no one else, by the way), and then Macsed playing one of the worst games imaginable (in between two much higher caliber games) is a coincidence...
I'll put it another way, if you were forced to make your own bet, of say $100,000, on whether or not Macsed threw that map, and you bet he didn't, you're out of your mind. Sangho disagrees with you. And lots of progamer where their game was deemed suspicious by community. https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/131156-interview-sangho-on-match-fixingUnless there are updates from authority, I don't think this thread should stay open. This has turned into witch hunt. I'm not hunting. Not saying Macsed should be banned from anything. If I were a tournament organizer, I wouldn't bar him from the tournament, not based on this information alone. Yeah, you're doing nothing wrong, just keeping the fire for to burn the witch,but you're not the one throwing the witch into the fire nor the one really hunting. How could you, you're just typing words on internwebz, it's fine, no harm can be done, right? + Show Spoiler +On March 21 2019 15:49 hiro protagonist wrote:On March 21 2019 15:20 xelnaga_empire wrote:On March 21 2019 14:19 hiro protagonist wrote:On March 21 2019 12:51 xelnaga_empire wrote:On March 21 2019 01:31 hiro protagonist wrote:On March 21 2019 01:20 xelnaga_empire wrote: [quote]
See, we are wasting time trying to figure out how Pinnacle operates internally and what they did or didn't do as part of their investigation. Unless a Pinnacle employee comes out and tells us exactly what they did and didn't do for the MacSed case, Pinnacle is a black box to us.
And if Pinnacle is a black box to us, then they found no fault with the MacSed match
Your logic is flawed. Pinnacle being a “black box” is not evidence of no wrongdoing. Your entire argument based on this statement is not valid. What IS evidence of wrongdoing is the betting line. Unless you, or anyone else can give me a logical reason as to why the betting line changed for something other than match fixing, then I suggest we accept that we need a real investigation. What investigation? Who will do it? WESG is silent and they had a chance to look at it already. You think the Chinese police will investigate after Pinnacle said there was nothing out of the ordinary with the betting? Good luck because I can tell you, that will never happen. Because Pinnacle said there was no suspicious betting in MacSed's game, the chance that the Chinese police will investigate is zero. Now if WESG comes out and says there was suspicious actions by MacSed, and/or Pinnacle reverses their stance and says there was suspicious betting, then it may be possible for the Chinese authorities to investigate. Until then, I doubt there will be a real investigation. But hey, you are free to fly to China to investigate. You can let the SC2 community know the result of your investigation after you fly to China. Good luck to you if you do! Pinnacle is based in the Netherlands. They have Laws there that protect gamblers. Match fixing breaks those Laws. Law enforcement there should investigate. On the SC2 side of things, Blizzard is the only relevant organization for an investigation. It’s in there best interest to root out anything that takes away from the integrity of the game. They should look into how the tournament was run, see if there’s any discrepancies, ask questions. You know, just some basic investigation stuff. They recently had to do this with Hearthstone with win trading aligations (and only after some strong public pressure I might add). They came to the conclusion that it happened, and responded accordingly. Oh good. Get Pinnacle to send us more details of how they determined MacSed's match didn't have suspicious betting that warranted a refund. I'm sure they will issue a second statement. You go do that! /s Yes, get Blizzard to investigate this too! You go do that! /s Yes, that’s what I’m doing now. I’m asking for an investigation. Don’t you want Blizzard/Pinnacle/relevant authorities to look into this? Shouldn’t we expect that when the smoke alarm goes off, we check to see if there is a fire? Then ask the damn officials. Do you realize you're here on some random internet forum? And as far as we know the fucking Pinnacle DID investigation. FFS at least remove the PInnacle from your post, it;s becoming pathetic. Ask the authorities. If you cannot ask yourself for whatever reasons ask someone in that country to file it so the police has to start the investigation. This is just forum on the interwebz, you can post here for eternity and guess what, no investigation will be done. SURPRISE! Of course what we say can have effects on peoples lifes, Shanas link was a great read that many that have posted here should read if you haven't. However Popkiller is not wrong in stating that based on the information we do have Macsed is likely guilty, you can disagree but that doesn't change anything. You think I'm a fool for posting my opinion and I think you're a fool if you actually believe that he is probably not guilty. In regards to your attack on hiro, how is it is his responsibility to contact the authorities. Maybe I should post the same message back to you huh? Since you seem to think it so important that someone contacts the police for an investigation, you do it yourself! The most critical thing you do miss there is that all of us here could contact the authorities and ask them to look into this but you know what nothing would happen. I live in sweden so I don't "really" know about the police entity in other countries but I doubt they are leagues and bounds better than what we have here and let me tell you that there are a lot of important things that should be investigated that is not. This tiny issue would never be prioritized by the police just because all of us calls them. You know what could make them look into it? If bigger corporations/organizations starts making their voices heard. We have no power here and nothing we do would lead to a "proper" investigation unless Blizzard/pinnacle/WESG pressure the authorities and why would they do that you ask? Because we pressure them as a community. The sad part is I think you already realized this but you don't really care if an investigation is made you just wants us that are of a different opinion to shut up, to silence us. That is more pathetic than anything hiro posted. How? I don't know, did you try going to the Police station and reporting a possible crime? It's not that hard, they invite you inside, give you a cup of tea/cofee or just water, then they will listen to you, write a report, you read it, then you sign it and then the investigation starts. Or go to a lawyer and get help from someone who makes LIVING out of this. This person should know how to report a crime oversees. Yes, this will result in YOU paying money for a professional help. Like, people, do you have any idea how the society works? I'm not gonna report anything, because I think no crime happened. But all these witch hunters who think crime happened should report THE CRIME TO THE ONLY AUTHORITY THAT CAN PROPERLY INVESTIGATE IT!!!! Alright, maybe there's been a misunderstanding, I will try to be clear. This is only a question to you, a basic yes or no question. Presume that an actual crime happened, just play with the idea that Macsed actually matchfixed. If I do report my suspicion to the police, if I do the above steps you so clearly spell out for me do you believe (presuming that he actually IS guilty) that the authorities would properly investigate, find proof and prosecute him? Remember this is a basic yes or no question, also I perceive your reply as quite disrespectful, please try to keep a civil discussion. Yes. Sorry to barge in, i know i wasnt the one addressed, but yes, authorities can and should investigate crimes, such as fraud. Whether they would in China that's impossible for us here to say.
They did in Korea, and there were multiple convictions. Not by esports organizations, by actual prosecutors and law enforcement. Several times actually
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Some people in this thread seem to misunderstand what a public forum is. The OP presented us a case of possible match fixing and we can all express our opinions on this. If someone concludes that this evidence indeed looks compelling that doesn't mean that person is on a "witch hunt". You can disagree and engage in discussion but you shouldn't try to close the thread. Having it gain a few more pages and be visible in a side bar a bit longer won't matter much anyway.
Also we are not in a criminal court.
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On March 21 2019 21:05 Penev wrote: Some people in this thread seem to misunderstand what a public forum is. The OP presented us a case of possible match fixing and we can all express our opinions on this. If someone concludes that this evidence indeed looks compelling that doesn't mean that person is on a "witch hunt". You can disagree and engage in discussion but you shouldn't try to close the thread. Having it gain a few more pages and be visible in a side bar a bit longer won't matter much anyway.
Also we are not in a criminal court.
This would indeed be the case in an ideal world. However have we really not seen enough instances of public accusations by random online nobodies significantly hurting people? Do you really want to ignore that some people are actually assholes enough that the whole act of condemning someone is pleasant to them, really not quite unlike in the case of the literal witch hunt? You are not even on a high horse here, because the proverbial horse is belly-deep in a swamp made mainly of excrement (a.k.a. the 2019 internet).
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On March 21 2019 20:21 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2019 19:16 Shuffleblade wrote:
Alright, maybe there's been a misunderstanding, I will try to be clear. This is only a question to you, a basic yes or no question.
Presume that an actual crime happened, just play with the idea that Macsed actually matchfixed. If I do report my suspicion to the police, if I do the above steps you so clearly spell out for me do you believe (presuming that he actually IS guilty) that the authorities would properly investigate, find proof and prosecute him?
Remember this is a basic yes or no question, also I perceive your reply as quite disrespectful, please try to keep a civil discussion. Dude, they have to. Yes. It's their duty to investigate anything that can be a crime. Or you think, that if you file them a potential fraud, they will go - nah, why should we care and start playing games on their workstations? In what country do you live, you think this? Edit> Of course if match fixing isn't considered a crime in the country there won't be any investigation. But that's something we don't change here anyway.
On March 21 2019 20:43 Geo.Rion wrote:
Yes. Sorry to barge in, i know i wasnt the one addressed, but yes, authorities can and should investigate crimes, such as fraud. Whether they would in China that's impossible for us here to say.
They did in Korea, and there were multiple convictions. Not by esports organizations, by actual prosecutors and law enforcement. Several times actually
This really helps me understand your perspective on this issue, I do actually file police reports in my work. Its not what I mainly do but every 2-3 months or so I usually put together a report to the police due to a crime. I also gets their questions in regards to the report and gets to know what they ultimately do with the report. I would believe the crimes I report are more serious than the issue at hand in this thread, from a police perspective and let me tell you the authorities usually does not do much. Usually we need to provide a shitton of actual evidence for anything to happen beyond them talking with the accused which obviously seldom lead anywhere.
From what I understand the police looks at the evidence provided to them and asks the question, is this enough for a judge to bring this to the court or is there "easy", fast and none expensive additonal actions that can be done in order to make it likely that a judge would take this case. The police at least in my country can do very little unless there are strong evidence already submitted, even for them to ask for bankstatements they need compelling evidence even before gathering that information.
The above is my experience with our local law enforcement, it might not actually reflect reality or how the authorities work in other countries but personally I have extremely little faith in the authorities when it comes to small issues like this. The police usually have very limited resources and they often will not investigate reports beyond looking at the information provided in the report depending on the crime in question. More severe crimes are often prioritized.
I only expanded on my opinion and experience to explain why I think the way I do, the authority needs to be pressured from a bigger entity than a private person to do any real investigation. That is what I think
Edit:
On March 21 2019 21:26 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2019 21:05 Penev wrote: Some people in this thread seem to misunderstand what a public forum is. The OP presented us a case of possible match fixing and we can all express our opinions on this. If someone concludes that this evidence indeed looks compelling that doesn't mean that person is on a "witch hunt". You can disagree and engage in discussion but you shouldn't try to close the thread. Having it gain a few more pages and be visible in a side bar a bit longer won't matter much anyway.
Also we are not in a criminal court. This would indeed be the case in an ideal world. However have we really not seen enough instances of public accusations by random online nobodies significantly hurting people? Do you really want to ignore that some people are actually assholes enough that the whole act of condemning someone is pleasant to them, really not quite unlike in the case of the literal witch hunt? You are not even on a high horse here, because the proverbial horse is belly-deep in a swamp made mainly of excrement (a.k.a. the 2019 internet).
So you're saying we should close all threads because there is a risk a person on the internet whom enjoy posting mean things will post mean things? Yeah lets stop all discussions because there could come people here and say bad stuff, better just to stop all talking so that never happens....
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People don't understand betting line and it's totally normal, it's a niche thing in eSports and I am glad it is.
But, anyone saying that "Pinnacle not voiding the match" is compelling evidence against match fixing just doesn't get it.
The replay itself is beyond sketchy. It's a really dumb replay. It feels like a throw. But, yes, by itself, it's not enough to accuse him and ban him, I agree. It could happen sometime : him just not caring enough, feeling like he just can't lose against him and then a bunch of weird circumstances... maybe it's one of those 1 in a 1000 brain fart game from MacSed.
Betting line changing last minute to the point of bringing it to 1-1 for that outcome. It's a really big and really dumb bet. It's a lot of money for an outcome that is extremly unlikely and also for only a 1-1 return : basically the worst bet you could ever make. 1% or less chance of happening, you lose a big amount of money if it doesn't happen but only double up if it does. Why would anyone ever bet that without knowing the outcome in advance? Also, that didn't happen to any other betting line of WESG. Only that match. Again, by itself it's really not enough to accuse MacSed. It's sketchy, but not enough. It could be someone just betting a much bigger amount than expected, maybe clicking really quick and not realising and not paying any attention on how significant the amount is and how it would affect the odd, suddenly making his bet idiotic : this probably almost never happens but, maybe this time it did.
When you combine both those extremly unlikely scenario of him playing that terrible game + someone betting a large amount of money on him playing such a terrible game without any odd advantage meaning that it's basically a extremly shitty bet, that, again, didn't happen in any other betting line during WESG that I'm aware... The only logical conclusion is that MacSed threw that game.
Pinnacle not voiding it is definitly not an argument. It doesn't factor in at all. They don't automatically void a bet that changes the betting line last minute in a dumb way and it's highly likely that Pinnacle just doesn't care enough. It's not illegal to make a dumb bet. The total amount of the bet was probably just not significant enough for them to justify an investigation. They just don't care. Yes, the bet was quite big compared to other WESG matches if it could move the line that much, but, SC2 WESG is probably such a niche event that it can't be an enormous amount either. It's probably just not significant enough for Pinnacle to care about it.
To me, the only logical explanation is that MacSed threw. Nothing else make sense. Now if there would be just one other scenario that make sense I think we should give the benefit of the doubt... I just can't think of any.
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All of these people defending Macsed. I don't understand how they take a look at the Vods and not come to the conclusion that Macsed has deliberately set out to lose. Did they not see the Vods, or do they simply have an extremely low SC2 level of knowledge?
I can understand if you are employed by WESG, or are best mates with Macsed that you'll want to defend him, but otherwise is just embarrassing.
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On March 21 2019 21:26 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2019 21:05 Penev wrote: Some people in this thread seem to misunderstand what a public forum is. The OP presented us a case of possible match fixing and we can all express our opinions on this. If someone concludes that this evidence indeed looks compelling that doesn't mean that person is on a "witch hunt". You can disagree and engage in discussion but you shouldn't try to close the thread. Having it gain a few more pages and be visible in a side bar a bit longer won't matter much anyway.
Also we are not in a criminal court. This would indeed be the case in an ideal world. However have we really not seen enough instances of public accusations by random online nobodies significantly hurting people? Do you really want to ignore that some people are actually assholes enough that the whole act of condemning someone is pleasant to them, really not quite unlike in the case of the literal witch hunt? You are not even on a high horse here, because the proverbial horse is belly-deep in a swamp made mainly of excrement (a.k.a. the 2019 internet). This just says to me you didn't actually consider the evidence. You're painting a picture of broader (internet) behavior and accuse this particular "random online nobody" of said behavior. Don't generalize. Just go from case to case. If you think this OP is one of those you describe than go ahead and say so. I happen to think the evidence is there to be suspicious about this particular match. You are free to disagree.
Edit: You didn't necessarily not consider the evidence. Maybe I got that notion from an earlier post. My bad.
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If you're playing a significantly lower level player in something that isn't a best of one, if you make a horrible mistake and get behind, calling the game and starting fresh rather than exhausting yourself trying to make a comeback makes perfect sense.
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On March 21 2019 23:54 BronzeKnee wrote: If you're playing a significantly lower level player in something that isn't a best of one, if you make a horrible mistake and get behind, calling the game and starting fresh rather than exhausting yourself trying to make a comeback makes perfect sense. My interest is more in the betting line movement and specifics around it but I did see the game as well. I don't think you give a good impression of the game here. It's not that Macsed went full Taeja (quickly gg-ing after seeing that behind) and it wasn't exactly one mistake either.
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On March 21 2019 23:54 BronzeKnee wrote: If you're playing a significantly lower level player in something that isn't a best of one, if you make a horrible mistake and get behind, calling the game and starting fresh rather than exhausting yourself trying to make a comeback makes perfect sense. How about multiple "mistakes" one after another, from a badly executed cheese that hard countered the other guy, to simply microing so you would certainly lose? Against a diamond player. Forget about the matchfixing. Lets say betting line movement is just coincidence. Did you watch the vods. Do you still think Macsed didn't deliberately set out to lose based on the game? Then your SC2 knowledge is below diamond. Below Plat. Below Gold.
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Not only that, MacSed plays super crisp in game 1 and 3, looking like he's swatting a fly. But sure, he let his guard down in game 2 to the point where he didn't know how to execute a platinum-level cannon rush anymore. Even forgetting all the "decision-making" mistakes in the game, the build itself was incredibly slow and conspicuous.
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From reading the later pages in this thread:
Damn. He got a lot of friends and/or nationals who are completely blind to obvious evidence.
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On March 22 2019 00:25 DwD wrote: From reading the later pages in this thread:
Damn. He got a lot of friends and/or nationals who are completely blind to obvious evidence.
You'd be surprised at the lengths people would go in the name of blind faith
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On March 21 2019 23:32 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2019 21:26 opisska wrote:On March 21 2019 21:05 Penev wrote: Some people in this thread seem to misunderstand what a public forum is. The OP presented us a case of possible match fixing and we can all express our opinions on this. If someone concludes that this evidence indeed looks compelling that doesn't mean that person is on a "witch hunt". You can disagree and engage in discussion but you shouldn't try to close the thread. Having it gain a few more pages and be visible in a side bar a bit longer won't matter much anyway.
Also we are not in a criminal court. This would indeed be the case in an ideal world. However have we really not seen enough instances of public accusations by random online nobodies significantly hurting people? Do you really want to ignore that some people are actually assholes enough that the whole act of condemning someone is pleasant to them, really not quite unlike in the case of the literal witch hunt? You are not even on a high horse here, because the proverbial horse is belly-deep in a swamp made mainly of excrement (a.k.a. the 2019 internet). This just says to me you didn't actually consider the evidence. You're painting a picture of broader (internet) behavior and accuse this particular "random online nobody" of said behavior. Don't generalize. Just go from case to case. If you think this OP is one of those you describe than go ahead and say so. I happen to think the evidence is there to be suspicious about this particular match. You are free to disagree. Edit: You didn't necessarily not consider the evidence. Maybe I got that notion from an earlier post. My bad.
I mean the OP is in vacuum fine, but then again, look at the responses, it attracts a lot of people that are dead set on some soft version of vigilante justice, berating anyone who disagrees etc. I have nothing against evidence being presented, but I can also see how discussions like these may hurt innocent people. There is a good reason why for example Wikipedia strongly filters what can you write about living persons and in those cases even their normal procedures for removal of material get sidestepped if needed.
TL is a high visibility page and with that comes responsibility. When people google macsed and see hundreds of posts condemning him for matchfixing, they will make their mind about him, despite him never being found guilty by anything remotely resembling an official body.
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On March 22 2019 01:02 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2019 23:32 Penev wrote:On March 21 2019 21:26 opisska wrote:On March 21 2019 21:05 Penev wrote: Some people in this thread seem to misunderstand what a public forum is. The OP presented us a case of possible match fixing and we can all express our opinions on this. If someone concludes that this evidence indeed looks compelling that doesn't mean that person is on a "witch hunt". You can disagree and engage in discussion but you shouldn't try to close the thread. Having it gain a few more pages and be visible in a side bar a bit longer won't matter much anyway.
Also we are not in a criminal court. This would indeed be the case in an ideal world. However have we really not seen enough instances of public accusations by random online nobodies significantly hurting people? Do you really want to ignore that some people are actually assholes enough that the whole act of condemning someone is pleasant to them, really not quite unlike in the case of the literal witch hunt? You are not even on a high horse here, because the proverbial horse is belly-deep in a swamp made mainly of excrement (a.k.a. the 2019 internet). This just says to me you didn't actually consider the evidence. You're painting a picture of broader (internet) behavior and accuse this particular "random online nobody" of said behavior. Don't generalize. Just go from case to case. If you think this OP is one of those you describe than go ahead and say so. I happen to think the evidence is there to be suspicious about this particular match. You are free to disagree. Edit: You didn't necessarily not consider the evidence. Maybe I got that notion from an earlier post. My bad. I mean the OP is in vacuum fine, but then again, look at the responses, it attracts a lot of people that are dead set on some soft version of vigilante justice, berating anyone who disagrees etc. I have nothing against evidence being presented, but I can also see how discussions like these may hurt innocent people. There is a good reason why for example Wikipedia strongly filters what can you write about living persons and in those cases even their normal procedures for removal of material get sidestepped if needed. TL is a high visibility page and with that comes responsibility. When people google macsed and see hundreds of posts condemning him for matchfixing, they will make their mind about him, despite him never being found guilty by anything remotely resembling an official body. My initial post was aimed at people who accuse the OP and some who appear to be arguing in good faith of being like witch hunters. This thread has questionable posts on both sides of the discussion as is unfortunately often the case. I don't disagree with what you're saying here but I still think a thread like this should be possible to exist on TL when the evidence presented is convincing enough which I think it is. This does of course mean a highly damning thread now exist aimed at a real person which is especially unfortunate if said person is innocent. Are you of the position this thread should've been closed immediately or maybe at a later point?
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There are also a lot of people attracted that are dead set on berating anyone who agrees. You are arguing from the point of view that Macsed is innocent and may be hurt by allegations and rumours, or are just arguing that matchfixing allegations should not ever be discussed even if the evidence is overwhelming. In either case, I have to ask you, did you watch the vods? Take a glance at game 3? Do you think Macsed did or did not deliberately set out to lose the game based on that?
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On March 22 2019 01:59 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2019 01:02 opisska wrote:On March 21 2019 23:32 Penev wrote:On March 21 2019 21:26 opisska wrote:On March 21 2019 21:05 Penev wrote: Some people in this thread seem to misunderstand what a public forum is. The OP presented us a case of possible match fixing and we can all express our opinions on this. If someone concludes that this evidence indeed looks compelling that doesn't mean that person is on a "witch hunt". You can disagree and engage in discussion but you shouldn't try to close the thread. Having it gain a few more pages and be visible in a side bar a bit longer won't matter much anyway.
Also we are not in a criminal court. This would indeed be the case in an ideal world. However have we really not seen enough instances of public accusations by random online nobodies significantly hurting people? Do you really want to ignore that some people are actually assholes enough that the whole act of condemning someone is pleasant to them, really not quite unlike in the case of the literal witch hunt? You are not even on a high horse here, because the proverbial horse is belly-deep in a swamp made mainly of excrement (a.k.a. the 2019 internet). This just says to me you didn't actually consider the evidence. You're painting a picture of broader (internet) behavior and accuse this particular "random online nobody" of said behavior. Don't generalize. Just go from case to case. If you think this OP is one of those you describe than go ahead and say so. I happen to think the evidence is there to be suspicious about this particular match. You are free to disagree. Edit: You didn't necessarily not consider the evidence. Maybe I got that notion from an earlier post. My bad. I mean the OP is in vacuum fine, but then again, look at the responses, it attracts a lot of people that are dead set on some soft version of vigilante justice, berating anyone who disagrees etc. I have nothing against evidence being presented, but I can also see how discussions like these may hurt innocent people. There is a good reason why for example Wikipedia strongly filters what can you write about living persons and in those cases even their normal procedures for removal of material get sidestepped if needed. TL is a high visibility page and with that comes responsibility. When people google macsed and see hundreds of posts condemning him for matchfixing, they will make their mind about him, despite him never being found guilty by anything remotely resembling an official body. My initial post was aimed at people who accuse the OP and some who appear to be arguing in good faith of being like witch hunters. This thread has questionable posts on both sides of the discussion as is unfortunately often the case. I don't disagree with what you're saying here but I still think a thread like this should be possible to exist on TL when the evidence presented is convincing enough which I think it is. This does of course mean a highly damning thread now exist aimed at a real person which is especially unfortunate if said person is innocent. Are you of the position this thread should've been closed immediately or maybe at a later point?
Honestly, even five years ago, I'd be like "muh free speech", but I feel that phase of my life was, in retrospect, pretty dumb. I would be now, after having learned how devastating internet damnation can be to people, willing to go as far as "no posts accusing people of wrongdoing unless they have been officially punished for that by at least tournament organizers if not law enforcement" site-wide. The lives of individual people are more important that the competitive integrity of video games.
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United States32511 Posts
Locking the thread!
The circumstances have been fairly thoroughly discussed, and now people are just having repetitive arguments about the 'right' amount of suspicion to have.
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