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On December 03 2010 02:28 Bellygareth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 02:16 Bitters wrote:On December 03 2010 02:13 Bellygareth wrote:On December 03 2010 01:45 OriginalBeast wrote:On December 03 2010 01:22 flanksteak wrote:On December 03 2010 01:10 OriginalBeast wrote:On December 03 2010 00:39 Silfurstar wrote:On December 03 2010 00:22 OriginalBeast wrote: I can't tell you how honestly horrible it is to make a post like this, and yet everyday, there will be a new post with a "New best most optimal way to do X thing"
If you can answer this question then I will never rant about this again. What If your ramp gets pylon blocked, and all of your drones are stuck in your base? According to your plan... wait until the pylons go down and continue with making the hatch on 18... Get lings and destroy the pylons while taking your gas or teching something ? I don't know... I'm just Gold, but that's what I would try and see the results. If you read the OP, it says that it's just a general build, and that you have to adapt to the circumstances. Which is true for every existing build or strategy. A plan is always something you come up with beforehand, and that you need to adapt when you are actually executing it. Contradicting an idea with "what if" is just pointless. You can always find something that would put any plan in jeopardy. That's when decision making comes into play. Reasonable people realize when to scout and that cheese is coming. People who are new to RTSs in general, see this and think "well this is optimal, when I do this im going to win" and follow it to every second. You dont need to tell me to adapt, im the one telling everyone else that they need to adapt, and that maybe following a "new optimal build" will lose you games if your not careful. Read all the posts of people saying, yep im going to go do this now, out of all the pages and even views from people who didn't respond think of the people who wrote this down, memorized it, maybe practiced it against the A.I. and are going to go into a game thinking that its instant win because they have the reassurance of everyone else posting here saying, "yep sure is optimal" and "im going to go try it right now" I will say im outnumbered, as I am not someone on the bandwagon, but If someone reads this and thinks "maybe I should have a plan B" or "if I see X I know I am most confident if I use Y" then I have done a good deed From the very first post, nobody advocated being rigid with the build order. General Build order: (Note: I said general. This is simply the optimal build from a purely economic standpoint. You can get gas at any point you feel comfortable. I want to avoid making an extremely flexible build less flexible by making assumptions about strategy.)
Like I've had to say a million times, I don't give a shit about the first post, I think its bullshit. I think that you can put the work general in there and people will still try following it as rigidly as possible. Stop trying to make me out to be the bad guy here because I disagree with the OP, Im just trying to make sure that people that aren't as good at the game are taken into consideration. I mean its like if someone was like what should I do in starcraft, I wouldn't give them a build order. I would say "constantly make workers, don't get supply blocked, and eventually you'll get a feel for how many units you should have at different parts in the game." if someone followed those rules instead of your build order my person would be way ahead, because your person will get supply blocked and ultimately wont have an optimal economy because in the later stages of the game they will be lost. Every build order thread can't be tailored to peoples ladder ranking, but you can't assume that someone from diamond using the "optimal build order" is going to have the same result as the person in bronze using the "optimal build order" build orders are just bullshit, if someone wants to rush for DTs they can 1 gate then twilight counsol then dark shrine, because the more they practice that the more optimal it will be for them and the more they will be able to refine it so that they dont have places where they feel they are exposed or unitless, again its not a matter of being optimal, its a matter of learning how to be optimal Your problem is obviously with build orders in general, and that's not the subject of this thread. Also to all the people saying things like : you didn't build a gas, or lings that's why this build is better economically: you are wrong. This build has been compaired to the others with the same assumptions (no lings produced / no gas). Should you chose to build lings with this build, I'm pretty sure you can have around the same amount than say a 14pool 14 gas at the same time, and probably still be ahead in workers. "you are wrong." no... read my last post, incorporating an 18 gas and switching the build to 14p/15h produces more drones and more resources than this build... the timing of the gas is what makes this not "optimal" and shouldn't then be considered standard. In your test, you probably put the geiser a bit too early (hence the fact that you got more gas in the end). I would be interested of the mineral results if you delay it a bit more to have the same amount of gas than a 14p15h at 5:56. Intuitively your drone mines a bit more, allowing you to produce 1 more drone, mining a bit more himself. However you have the right idea. Testing the build against similar builds and that's exactly what I'm saying :D. Edit: also even though it could still be behind with a gas, I'm still a fan of this build for its hability to answer to early pushes, without being too far behind if the push doesn't come.
i have the results open still... his build with gas at 18 was mining 19.6 minerals/sec and 1.89 gas/sec, so the 14p/15h would still be significantly ahead at that mark.
and as far as being too early on the gas... we are still talking an 18 gas.. which means slow speedlings or late roaches versus early aggression (but i agree, my entire point of posting in this thread is that he should have added an extractor to show its actual economic standing versus the common openers)
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The more I look at it, the more reason I think this should be the new standard build for Zerg. I see no obvious reason why you would choose a different build, on any map, against any opponent.
total fail of op along with the thread title. this isn't marketing where you have to use superlatives to make it seem like it's the only best choice. also where are the pro replays to back up your statement? or do you think your thought process is superior to all GSL players that DO NOT USE THIS BUILD EVER?
a build that wastes SO many larva early on, can't be optimal. period. while waiting for 300 minerals (100 overlord 200 pool) at 11 supply you hatch stays at 3 larva and there will not spawn anymore which means your behind. there's a very good reason for 14 pool/16 hatch or 15 hatch/14 pool since these builds don't waste ANY larvae at all. this also means that all supply timings in a build that wastes larvae are not the same as in the regular builds which will reach the same supply count faster. testing while only building drones is also pretty much bullshit. if your opponent let's you do this your on a level where you can do any build and succeed...
and to add:
There is a real psychological value to this build as well. Once your opponent scouts your 11pool, he will likely overcompensate by playing more defensive and less macro-oriented. This of course is due to the widely held misconception that a 10 pool build "must do damage, or it is behind in economy." We have proven this to simply not be the case with this specific build.
and then if your opponent "overreacts" he does the perfect counter to your build... you cut drone production early on so YOU are behind! if the opponent forces you to make units instead of drones you will be even MORE behind. there is no misconception in that a 10 pool should do damage to make the build equal to an ECONOMICALLY one (which this build is not). to emphasize again you cut drones in the beginning to make this 11overpool (see liquipedia) there where enough threads already that did prove that overpool is inferior to a 10/11pool followed by extractor trick and there is no reason to overpool ever in sc2.
EDIT: people should really start to use common sense before trying to back something up with bs build calculators...
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On December 03 2010 02:50 fleeze wrote:Show nested quote + The more I look at it, the more reason I think this should be the new standard build for Zerg. I see no obvious reason why you would choose a different build, on any map, against any opponent.
total fail of op along with the thread title. this isn't marketing where you have to use superlatives to make it seem like it's the only best choice. also where are the pro replays to back up your statement? or do you think your thought process is superior to all GSL players that DO NOT USE THIS BUILD EVER? a build that wastes SO many larva early on, can't be optimal. period. while waiting for 300 minerals (100 overlord 200 pool) at 11 supply you hatch stays at 3 larva and there will not spawn anymore which means your behind. there's a very good reason for 14 pool/16 hatch or 15 hatch/14 pool since these builds don't waste ANY larvae at all. this also means that all supply timings in a build that wastes larvae are not the same as in the regular builds which will reach the same supply count faster. testing while only building drones is also pretty much bullshit. if your opponent let's you do this your on a level where you can do any build and succeed... and to add: Show nested quote + There is a real psychological value to this build as well. Once your opponent scouts your 11pool, he will likely overcompensate by playing more defensive and less macro-oriented. This of course is due to the widely held misconception that a 10 pool build "must do damage, or it is behind in economy." We have proven this to simply not be the case with this specific build.
and then if your opponent "overreacts" he does the perfect counter to your build... you cut drone production early on so YOU are behind! if the opponent forces you to make units instead of drones you will be even MORE behind. there is no misconception in that a 10 pool should do damage to make the build equal to an ECONOMICALLY one (which this build is not). to emphasize again you cut drones in the beginning to make this 11overpool (see liquipedia) there where enough threads already that did prove that overpool is inferior to a 10/11pool followed by extractor trick and there is no reason to overpool ever in sc2. EDIT: people should really start to use common sense before trying to back something up with bs build calculators...
dude, that was fucking badass, I'm going to have to totally agree with this guy; I'm usually the kind that tries to find a counter argument, but you cant really argue with that.
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Scouting and gas timing really impacts the fluidity of a build. While 11 Pool 18 Hatch looks good if you're JUST making drones, I think it starts to fall behind when you start to get gas, make some zerglings, etc. It can't support the extra larvae it gets form the quicker queen while still getting gas and metabolic and a hatchery, while 14 Hatch 15 Pool feels like it has less hiccups.
This is just from playing around with the builds, not any intense testing and I could very well be wrong. Personally I like how much smoother Hatch/+1 Pool feels compared to this build.
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I'm going to say again: results from Haploid's build order calculator appear to be inconsistent with data collected from players collecting actual results in-game. Using results gathered in-game:
It takes 625 minerals per hatch (with Queen) per minute for constant drone production with overlords. With 2 hatches, this is a total requirement of 1250 minerals per minute. According to Liquidpedia, 3 workers on a mineral patch (the least efficient scenario) gather ~100 minerals per minute. Thus, it requires about 38 Drones mining minerals for constant Drone production off 2 hatches with Queens.
In other words, if you want to take gas before you have 38 Drones on minerals, you are going to clip your production on two hatches. For any realistic game, you want to take gas before this, whether you 11 pool 18 hatch, 14 hatch 15 pool, or any other build currently even close to standard that you can come up with.
So, getting your economy maxed before gas is more or less out. The next question is, does one build suffer more from losing Drones to gas than another? I'm not sure we can conclude this one way or the other without actual results, as one could speculate either way.
Edit for arbitrary apotheoses
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On December 03 2010 02:50 fleeze wrote:Show nested quote + The more I look at it, the more reason I think this should be the new standard build for Zerg. I see no obvious reason why you would choose a different build, on any map, against any opponent.
total fail of op along with the thread title. this isn't marketing where you have to use superlatives to make it seem like it's the only best choice. also where are the pro replays to back up your statement? or do you think your thought process is superior to all GSL players that DO NOT USE THIS BUILD EVER? a build that wastes SO many larva early on, can't be optimal. period. while waiting for 300 minerals (100 overlord 200 pool) at 11 supply you hatch stays at 3 larva and there will not spawn anymore which means your behind. there's a very good reason for 14 pool/16 hatch or 15 hatch/14 pool since these builds don't waste ANY larvae at all. this also means that all supply timings in a build that wastes larvae are not the same as in the regular builds which will reach the same supply count faster. testing while only building drones is also pretty much bullshit. if your opponent let's you do this your on a level where you can do any build and succeed... and to add: Show nested quote + There is a real psychological value to this build as well. Once your opponent scouts your 11pool, he will likely overcompensate by playing more defensive and less macro-oriented. This of course is due to the widely held misconception that a 10 pool build "must do damage, or it is behind in economy." We have proven this to simply not be the case with this specific build.
and then if your opponent "overreacts" he does the perfect counter to your build... you cut drone production early on so YOU are behind! if the opponent forces you to make units instead of drones you will be even MORE behind. there is no misconception in that a 10 pool should do damage to make the build equal to an ECONOMICALLY one (which this build is not). to emphasize again you cut drones in the beginning to make this 11overpool (see liquipedia) there where enough threads already that did prove that overpool is inferior to a 10/11pool followed by extractor trick and there is no reason to overpool ever in sc2. EDIT: people should really start to use common sense before trying to back something up with bs build calculators...
Just on this one point, you wouldn't be waiting for 300 minerals. You build the overlord on 11, then around the time the ovie pops you'll have 200 minerals for the spawning pool. You continue to pump drones at this point, and no, you absolutely do not waste any larvae.
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to the people saying you lose larva with this build. in the short term yes, you lose a few seconds of larva production.
HOWEVER,
you make up for this with an early queen. a queen is like building a hatchery, except the larva are slightly delayed. so if the game goes to a point where larva are spawning from injects then i will actually be equal to or ahead of other builds in larva at the same point in the game.
the 11 pool is a tradeoff. what i gain is the ability to apply early pressure and a queen started on 15 supply. the tradeoff is an 18 hatch instead of 16 (probably a matter of seconds when in-game), and some lost larva production.
if you actually try the build and look at the economy graph it looks the same every time. small bump when u are mining at 10 opposed to the opponents 9. the opponent gains a small advantage when he moves to 12-15 and u are stuck on 11 waiting for the pool. but when larva start spawning YOU gain the advantage in worker count.
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EDIT: Guys, please try to just ignore the trolls. Debating them just gives them the attention they need to hijack the entire thread into oblivion. Suggesting that a 14 pool can get lings out faster than an 11 pool, or that adding early gas will destroy the whole build, or claiming certain deviations are impossible despite the fact I provided numerous replays with all sorts of variation in hatch, gas, and ling timing, clearly means they have no interest in even considering the build in question.
Those who recognize the amazing potential of this build will test it themselves and figure out how to make it work in any situation. I will begin testing later today to provide replays with faster speed, and also a ZvZ game that includes baneling aggession, etc.
Don't hold any trolls hand through common sense and logic, and don't throw pearls before swine.
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On December 03 2010 02:18 flanksteak wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 01:45 OriginalBeast wrote:On December 03 2010 01:22 flanksteak wrote:On December 03 2010 01:10 OriginalBeast wrote:On December 03 2010 00:39 Silfurstar wrote:On December 03 2010 00:22 OriginalBeast wrote: I can't tell you how honestly horrible it is to make a post like this, and yet everyday, there will be a new post with a "New best most optimal way to do X thing"
If you can answer this question then I will never rant about this again. What If your ramp gets pylon blocked, and all of your drones are stuck in your base? According to your plan... wait until the pylons go down and continue with making the hatch on 18... Get lings and destroy the pylons while taking your gas or teching something ? I don't know... I'm just Gold, but that's what I would try and see the results. If you read the OP, it says that it's just a general build, and that you have to adapt to the circumstances. Which is true for every existing build or strategy. A plan is always something you come up with beforehand, and that you need to adapt when you are actually executing it. Contradicting an idea with "what if" is just pointless. You can always find something that would put any plan in jeopardy. That's when decision making comes into play. Reasonable people realize when to scout and that cheese is coming. People who are new to RTSs in general, see this and think "well this is optimal, when I do this im going to win" and follow it to every second. You dont need to tell me to adapt, im the one telling everyone else that they need to adapt, and that maybe following a "new optimal build" will lose you games if your not careful. Read all the posts of people saying, yep im going to go do this now, out of all the pages and even views from people who didn't respond think of the people who wrote this down, memorized it, maybe practiced it against the A.I. and are going to go into a game thinking that its instant win because they have the reassurance of everyone else posting here saying, "yep sure is optimal" and "im going to go try it right now" I will say im outnumbered, as I am not someone on the bandwagon, but If someone reads this and thinks "maybe I should have a plan B" or "if I see X I know I am most confident if I use Y" then I have done a good deed From the very first post, nobody advocated being rigid with the build order. General Build order: (Note: I said general. This is simply the optimal build from a purely economic standpoint. You can get gas at any point you feel comfortable. I want to avoid making an extremely flexible build less flexible by making assumptions about strategy.)
Like I've had to say a million times, I don't give a shit about the first post, I think its bullshit. I think that you can put the work general in there and people will still try following it as rigidly as possible. Stop trying to make me out to be the bad guy here because I disagree with the OP, I'm just trying to make sure that people that aren't as good at the game are taken into consideration.I mean its like if someone was like what should I do in starcraft, I wouldn't give them a build order. I would say "constantly make workers, don't get supply blocked, and eventually you'll get a feel for how many units you should have at different parts in the game." if someone followed those rules instead of your build order my person would be way ahead, because your person will get supply blocked and ultimately wont have an optimal economy because in the later stages of the game they will be lost. Every build order thread can't be tailored to peoples ladder ranking, but you can't assume that someone from diamond using the "optimal build order" is going to have the same result as the person in bronze using the "optimal build order" build orders are just bullshit, if someone wants to rush for DTs they can 1 gate then twilight counsol then dark shrine, because the more they practice that the more optimal it will be for them and the more they will be able to refine it so that they dont have places where they feel they are exposed or unitless, again its not a matter of being optimal, its a matter of learning how to be optimal Who's making you out to be the bad guy? You're concerned that new players will take something that is clearly stated as a general guideline, as something that's gospel and to be done rigidly? If anything the OP would agree with you, because the entire point of the build is to add flexibility; not take it away. So unknowingly, your intentions are aligned lol. Adding folds to your gameplay is a normal part of figuring out the game, as is taking the BO the wrong way, losing because the build doesn't explicitly include gas, and then figuring it out when to add it afterwards. Not even sure you have a point man, all that really happened here was, OP posted a build order he figured out after some strenuous testing, and then suddenly you're here standing up for the newbies who might use it incorrectly. I think you really took his post entirely the wrong way.
There are about three other people that are saying about the same thing here, but what happened was I read the build order as I do with all build orders (even if I don't feel that there a decent thing to base gameplay off of) and I just read, I heard of people saying how they were going to practice this build and people were doing math on it. Practice and math I have nothing against, and If you want to learn the build by all means do, I know that if your good at zerg and understand them having a build order can't be a setback. However, my problem came from just reading what people had to say! I felt like I saw people being lured in by promises of what the new standard was going to be. The thing Is, a while back I had a thread trying to predict what the games were going to look like in the future for all races, and it got closed. I don't feel like this should be closed, however it's the same thing just specifically for zerg, and its one person saying that this one build will be the standard. I often play with people many league below me, and I have gathered the information that how they play the game is they find the standard and then they find a hard counter to it. I have feel like I have shown them somewhat the game isn't predictable like that, and that if you look for a standard your going to over think things. Also I noticed that they don't have obviously the same skill ceiling as people who thought they knew what the standard was and that it was actually much higher from them. So, My main conclusion that I drew is that if you feel that a standard is predictable that you lower the skill ceiling for yourself, everyone that says that I have just words without meaning or information didn't know this until now admittedly, and guess I needed to be more up-front with the information. Finally, my overall point is that if you think that this is optimal, going to be the new standard, ect, thats fine, and some of the people I know feel there are standards to metagame and they make builds to counter the metagame, but as I have seen if you look past the counters, standards, and optimal builds, and just play the game you learn enough so that each time a new standard comes along its meaningless, because each game is taken as its own. It would actually make things a ton easier if people all just had a standard build that they played, it would prove me really really really wrong actually, build since I can't hop on ladder and say "OK, zerg so his build is going to be ___" why not hop on ladder and just play games and be adaptive in game instead of out of it.
I'm totally done with posting in this thread so if you have anymore hate mail just PM it to me, I mean this thread isn't even about the OPs build order anymore.
PS: I'm not so sure that I would believe that OP has ever used the build without proof I mean anyone could sit behind a build calculator and post results
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Just on this one point, you wouldn't be waiting for 300 minerals. You build the overlord on 11, then around the time the ovie pops you'll have 200 minerals for the spawning pool. You continue to pump drones at this point, and no, you absolutely do not waste any larvae.
your waiting for 300 minerals while not building drones at 11 supply... this really needed an explanation? and you waste larvae. you do not have the economy at 11 drones to not spawn 3 larvae at your hatch while waiting for 300! minerals. also the other builds have more drones out at this point so you also lose mining time!
the 11 pool is a tradeoff. what i gain is the ability to apply early pressure and a queen started on 15 supply. the tradeoff is an 18 hatch instead of 16 (probably a matter of seconds when in-game), and some lost larva production.
it is exactly 30 seconds (2x15 second larva spawn time) and this is A LOT. also read my post again. your 18 supply timings are not at the same time as a regular builds 18 supply timings since you wasted larvae and your 18 supply is that much later as the time you stayed on 3 larvae at your hatch. so it's even more then 30 seconds.
plus you both ignored that you HAVE TO BUILD drones to CATCH UP in the drone count, meaning any early pressure will set you more behind. i admit you that can defend easier IF you safed your larvae with your 11 pool but this also sets you behind even more since your not building drones...
edit:
Guys, please try to just ignore the trolls. Debating them just gives them the attention they need to hijack the entire thread into oblivion. Suggesting that a 14 pool can get lings out faster than an 11 pool, or that adding early gas will destroy the whole build, or claiming certain deviations are impossible despite the fact I provided numerous replays with all sorts of variation in hatch, gas, and ling timing, clearly means they have no interest in even considering the build in question.
then try to explain my points or am i one of those trolls in your oppinion? i'm just pointing out the obvious flaws so it should be easy for your super build. and yes YOU provided replays but where's the replays of actual top players?
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On December 03 2010 03:28 jdseemoreglass wrote:EDIT: Guys, please try to just ignore the trolls. Debating them just gives them the attention they need to hijack the entire thread into oblivion. Suggesting that a 14 pool can get lings out faster than an 11 pool, or that adding early gas will destroy the whole build, or claiming certain deviations are impossible despite the fact I provided numerous replays with all sorts of variation in hatch, gas, and ling timing, clearly means they have no interest in even considering the build in question. Those who recognize the amazing potential of this build will test it themselves and figure out how to make it work in any situation. I will begin testing later today to provide replays with faster speed, and also a ZvZ game that includes baneling aggession, etc. Don't hold any trolls hand through common sense and logic, and don't throw pearls before swine. so true. common sense and critical thinking are almost relics of an age long forgotten, especially to our ADD american kids. reading comprehension is an important skill to have. not for starcraft, for life.
i just 11 pooled on lt. droned up. saw the terran was going for a fast expand and i decided to see if i could break him with lings. and i did easily.
i wanted to mention that i double gas at 18, and when drones start popping off spawn larva's i fill them up. there will be ~16 drones mining minerals at 18. i leave them alone, and rally the new ones to gas.
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On December 02 2010 21:32 thenanox wrote:i remeber in one of TL threads that they speak about what is more optimal, and actually it was 12 pool with double extractor trick. Also i remember in bold text that NEVER OVERPOOL in this game
More optimal for what? 12overpool off a double extractor is behind 11overpool in both larvae and minerals at pretty much every point. And 12pool before overlord wastes a *ton* of larvae early on, which is the very worst time to be wasting larvae.
And there's a really really good chance that the bolded never overpool text was posted by me. Whenever I've done that, I've been referring specifically to 10overpool, which is always bad, and you should never do, because pretty much every other single build is always better than it. 11overpool obviously can be fine though, since it turns out it provides one of the most economic options available to zerg, surpassed only by 14hatch/15pool or 14h/14p.
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On December 03 2010 02:30 CtrlAltDefeat wrote: I'm not sure if this has been asked before, but did the economy calculator take into account the fact that the extractor trick "in reality" loses you 10 minerals (25-15), since unless you cancel another building (not supposed to happen in the early game according to the BO) you won't be able to use the other 4 minerals refunded by cancelling the extractor? lol interesting point
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On December 02 2010 23:50 Sirion wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 22:34 Markwerf wrote: It's fairly obvious a earlier pool build would be more economical in the scenario where you don't get gas or lings at all for the early game. That however is quite unrealistic and thus this build is far from as efficient as it looks.. Sure getting the queen asap provides more drones but if you are getting lings as well you can't use all drones anyway... This build is much less efficient early on but makes up for it later on because the first inject is earlier, however assuming you can just drone up completely is unrealistic.
11 pool builds are crap in ZvT imo where you can't drone like this anyway and just set your own economy back needlessly. In ZvP it's a different case as fast pools automatically deny some builds (like nexus first) and also provide a anti-scout very early, however this build doesn't include an early pair of lings so once again is useless as such, if you try a fast pool build like this at least include an early pair of lings..
Builds that don't include units and don't include scouting should just be banned from the forum really, its just useless in practice anyways. Add lings & scouting to this build and you will notice you will have a mineral shortage somewhere, ie. you can't drone as hard as you like. As a result this build is less efficient economy wise as 14 pool or 14 hatch. Not saying the build is useless but it will in no way be mainstream. I am sorry if I sound aggressive, but this post really bothers me. Firstly, it is not obvious at all that such an early pool can compete with a 14 hatch 14/15 pool build. In fact that fact is amazing. Second, for obvious reasons building lings reduces the number of drones you build. However, unless you provide some argument, I will assume that the impact on the economy is very similar both for this build and for 14 hatch 14 pool. The only exception is when you build a lot of lings before the pool for 14 hatch 14 pool finishes, then there is no comparison possible. But loosing 6 lings in defense of an extremely early rush is better than loosing 6 drones, so this build is better of economically. As a third, the OP does not include a scout or fighting units on purpose. Instead he assumes that you have a brain to scout when you think it is needed instead of when some magic list on the internet told you to do so. Same with fighting units. This is no 3 roach rush, the aim is to have the option to have an extremely strong economy with an early pool. As a final comment, your overzealous wish to ban one of the few truly constructive and innovative threads is so misguided it just baffles me. This thread contains a valid buildorder, a lot of testing and data on how it performs in a purely economic setting, a lot of replays you probably did not watch and many positive responses by zerg players who have tried it out.
Ugh thought people could figure builds out themselves a bit... The assumption that making lings instead of drones has the same impact on a 11 pool build as a 14 pool build is quite stupid. A 11 pool is economically worse then a regular 14 pool because you cut drones to get the pool faster.. This however is made up LATER by the fact that you are able to get a queen faster and thus catch up in the drone race. However you are only able to catch up in drones IF you have the minerals to continously drone after putting down that pool, in other scenario's 14 pool is just better. Thus a 11 pool being forced to make lings instead of drones later WILL be behind compared to a 11 pool especially if you had to scout as well. Just test this out for your self... You can't pump lings + use larvae non-stop + expo at the same time if you 11-pooled because you've cut too many drones at first and you have too much larvae, that only works with no scouting and no lings... Because the OP excluded scouting and early lings in his build he is led to believe that a 11 pool can drone up normally and thus catch up with a 14 pool. In a REAL game however you need to scout and need to make lings and you will NOT be able to catch up to a 14 pool.
SO in a normal game 14 pool > 11 pool. Sure the OP or anyone in this thread can claim that 11 pool is economically better but unless you live in fairyland where defense and scouting isn't neccesary this is simply not true... Note that I don't think 11 pool is bad, I actually think it's quite good in ZvP on 2 player maps (or if you expect the P to FE) because it can put off the timings P has. Saying it's economically better then 14 pool is just bullshit though...
Each replay of the OP using 11 pool and 'adjusting' just led him to a inferior build compared to 14 pool.
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On December 03 2010 03:39 fleeze wrote:Show nested quote + Just on this one point, you wouldn't be waiting for 300 minerals. You build the overlord on 11, then around the time the ovie pops you'll have 200 minerals for the spawning pool. You continue to pump drones at this point, and no, you absolutely do not waste any larvae.
your waiting for 300 minerals while not building drones at 11 supply... this really needed an explanation? and you waste larvae. you do not have the economy at 11 drones to not spawn 3 larvae at your hatch while waiting for 300! minerals. also the other builds have more drones out at this point so you also lose mining time! Show nested quote + the 11 pool is a tradeoff. what i gain is the ability to apply early pressure and a queen started on 15 supply. the tradeoff is an 18 hatch instead of 16 (probably a matter of seconds when in-game), and some lost larva production.
it is exactly 30 seconds (2x15 second larva spawn time) and this is A LOT. also read my post again. your 18 supply timings are not at the same time as a regular builds 18 supply timings since you wasted larvae and your 18 supply is that much later as the time you stayed on 3 larvae at your hatch. so it's even more then 30 seconds. plus you both ignored that you HAVE TO BUILD drones to CATCH UP in the drone count, meaning any early pressure will set you more behind. i admit you that can defend easier IF you safed your larvae with your 11 pool but this also sets you behind even more since your not building drones... edit: Show nested quote + Guys, please try to just ignore the trolls. Debating them just gives them the attention they need to hijack the entire thread into oblivion. Suggesting that a 14 pool can get lings out faster than an 11 pool, or that adding early gas will destroy the whole build, or claiming certain deviations are impossible despite the fact I provided numerous replays with all sorts of variation in hatch, gas, and ling timing, clearly means they have no interest in even considering the build in question.
then try to explain my points or am i one of those trolls in your oppinion? i'm just pointing out the obvious flaws so it should be easy for your super build. and yes YOU provided replays but where's the replays of actual top players?
Dude, seriously, what the fuck are you talking about?
At 11 supply, ONCE YOU HIT 100 MINERALS, YOU BUILD AN OVERLORD.
Got it? Once more: YOU BUILD AN OVERLORD
That takes 1 larva. You are never sitting on 3 larva in this build. You have not watched a single replay in this thread, and you have never tried the build yourself.
Until you're willing to actually have a look at this build, please shut the fuck up.
I used this build against my toss practice partner 3 times last night and I must say it's pretty awesome.
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On December 03 2010 03:39 fleeze wrote:Show nested quote + Just on this one point, you wouldn't be waiting for 300 minerals. You build the overlord on 11, then around the time the ovie pops you'll have 200 minerals for the spawning pool. You continue to pump drones at this point, and no, you absolutely do not waste any larvae.
your waiting for 300 minerals while not building drones at 11 supply... this really needed an explanation? and you waste larvae. you do not have the economy at 11 drones to not spawn 3 larvae at your hatch while waiting for 300! minerals. also the other builds have more drones out at this point so you also lose mining time! Show nested quote + the 11 pool is a tradeoff. what i gain is the ability to apply early pressure and a queen started on 15 supply. the tradeoff is an 18 hatch instead of 16 (probably a matter of seconds when in-game), and some lost larva production.
it is exactly 30 seconds (2x15 second larva spawn time) and this is A LOT. also read my post again. your 18 supply timings are not at the same time as a regular builds 18 supply timings since you wasted larvae and your 18 supply is that much later as the time you stayed on 3 larvae at your hatch. so it's even more then 30 seconds. plus you both ignored that you HAVE TO BUILD drones to CATCH UP in the drone count, meaning any early pressure will set you more behind. i admit you that can defend easier IF you safed your larvae with your 11 pool but this also sets you behind even more since your not building drones... edit: Show nested quote + Guys, please try to just ignore the trolls. Debating them just gives them the attention they need to hijack the entire thread into oblivion. Suggesting that a 14 pool can get lings out faster than an 11 pool, or that adding early gas will destroy the whole build, or claiming certain deviations are impossible despite the fact I provided numerous replays with all sorts of variation in hatch, gas, and ling timing, clearly means they have no interest in even considering the build in question.
then try to explain my points or am i one of those trolls in your oppinion? i'm just pointing out the obvious flaws so it should be easy for your super build. and yes YOU provided replays but where's the replays of actual top players?
im going to say this once.
i just did the build. the amount of larva time wasted is between 5-10 seconds MAX (maybe less if u are more prompt, i am a mere human), quickly made up when your first spawn larva pops. if you actually tried it you would see for yourself.
i think this replay (just played) shows what this build is capable of. i drone up quickly, getting workers mining asap is key, thelonger they are mining the more resources they bring in. i have my bases saturated before he does. i dont think there are any points in this game where i am behind in worker count.
then i see he is expanding but not with many units so i change to ling mode. lings off 2 hatches easily overruns his base. with my drone count i had more then enough minerals to support a third hatch and queens.
http://replayfu.com/download/7smQKq
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On December 03 2010 01:38 Bitters wrote: Like, using the haploid build order tester, if you add in an extractor at 18 supply (and only spawn with queens, no creep), his build will have mined a total of 3431 minerals and 329 gas at 5:54. If you then alter that exact build to 14p/15h it will have mined a total of 3674 minerals and 277 gas at 5:56 and have 1 more mineral drone. In this case, the 14p/15 appears to have better economy as 340 minerals seems better to have than just over 50 extra gas. (note, I didn't even try to further optimize the second build for queen timing, etc.).
The adding of the gas is extremely important in this case, since the WHOLE POINT of his OP was to claim this is the best econ build. gas changes the picture greatly
You *CAN NOT* use timing from haploid's tester to say build x is better than build y at any point, for any reason.
All these build order testers and optimizers simply do not take the reality of the game into account. For example, in the other thread, somebody posted an 11hatch/12pool build order that one of the optimizers came up with, saying it would be superior to all the other builds in the thread, when in actuality, it turns out that the build is completely impossible to implement as listed, because the timings are all off, because it wasn't actually based on the reality of the game.
So go ahead and test in-game if you think it makes a difference. The results might be similar, they might not. But for the love of god people, you can't rely on these simulations that don't actually reflect what happens in the game.
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On December 03 2010 02:50 fleeze wrote: also where are the pro replays to back up your statement? or do you think your thought process is superior to all GSL players that DO NOT USE THIS BUILD EVER? This statement would carry more weight if there weren't so many GSL games decided at the beginning of the match - specifically, the point where a hatchery-first Zerg is rushed and permanently crippled for the remainder of the (7-10 minute) game.
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On December 03 2010 03:39 fleeze wrote:Show nested quote + Just on this one point, you wouldn't be waiting for 300 minerals. You build the overlord on 11, then around the time the ovie pops you'll have 200 minerals for the spawning pool. You continue to pump drones at this point, and no, you absolutely do not waste any larvae.
your waiting for 300 minerals while not building drones at 11 supply... this really needed an explanation? and you waste larvae. you do not have the economy at 11 drones to not spawn 3 larvae at your hatch while waiting for 300! minerals. also the other builds have more drones out at this point so you also lose mining time!Show nested quote + the 11 pool is a tradeoff. what i gain is the ability to apply early pressure and a queen started on 15 supply. the tradeoff is an 18 hatch instead of 16 (probably a matter of seconds when in-game), and some lost larva production.
it is exactly 30 seconds (2x15 second larva spawn time) and this is A LOT. also read my post again. your 18 supply timings are not at the same time as a regular builds 18 supply timings since you wasted larvae and your 18 supply is that much later as the time you stayed on 3 larvae at your hatch. so it's even more then 30 seconds. plus you both ignored that you HAVE TO BUILD drones to CATCH UP in the drone count, meaning any early pressure will set you more behind. i admit you that can defend easier IF you safed your larvae with your 11 pool but this also sets you behind even more since your not building drones... edit: Show nested quote + Guys, please try to just ignore the trolls. Debating them just gives them the attention they need to hijack the entire thread into oblivion. Suggesting that a 14 pool can get lings out faster than an 11 pool, or that adding early gas will destroy the whole build, or claiming certain deviations are impossible despite the fact I provided numerous replays with all sorts of variation in hatch, gas, and ling timing, clearly means they have no interest in even considering the build in question.
then try to explain my points or am i one of those trolls in your oppinion? i'm just pointing out the obvious flaws so it should be easy for your super build. and yes YOU provided replays but where's the replays of actual top players?
Thanks for clarifying, that was my mistake. After you save up 200 minerals to put down the spawning pool, you'll be sitting on 3 larvae for about 6-7 seconds. (in the original thread with 11 pool, 18 hatch replay, 1:31-1:38)
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[ The assumption that making lings instead of drones has the same impact on a 11 pool build as a 14 pool build is quite stupid.
you have to consider that your opponent is scouting an 11 pool. people are much less likely to try early aggression when your unit production building is completed before theirs, + the fact that if you wanted YOU could be the one attacking them, and they must be ready for that as well.
ive had a few people (less then 3) try marine rushing me. it simply does not work against 11 pool. you have enough larva to make lings and drones during the rush.
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