|
United States22883 Posts
I don't know what's gotten into all of you, but a lot of you need to calm down. This is a discussion thread where you're supposed to debate the merits of the OP, and while being passionate is great, you should do so with a bit more self control than has been exhibited over the past 5 pages or so.
The build order isn't perfect, and a lot of you have poked holes in it which is perfectly fine and what you should be doing. Just don't get carried away with the ad hominem stuff. I've reread the OP three times and he's not being as hyperbolic as many of you think. As he says, the strength of the build is flexibility so you'll have the larva/pool in order to react. I haven't played around with it in YABOT yet, so I won't make any judgments about it.
I see no obvious reason why you would choose a different build, on any map, against any opponent. That doesn't mean it's the perfect build. If you disagree, discuss it and do so with some civility.
|
On December 03 2010 06:11 shoop wrote: so early on you don't have a lot of spare minerals to buy stuff and getting early lings will hurt your economy more than if you did a conventional opening.
See, this is the part I really don't get. You do actually have plenty of minerals to do other stuff that you might need to do. In fact, 14pool/16hatch has to let some larvae sit unused just in order to be able to build the queen when the pool finishes, because it's short on minerals at that point in time. That never happens in the 11 pool, and the only time you have larvae sitting around that you can't use is at 11 supply while you're waiting for minerals for the pool. Which we've already established puts you about 1/2 larvae behind.
Second, so far it seems that with this build it is more difficult to get gas early - is this true or is there a way to get gas early on without damaging economy too much.
If you want to build your second hatchery before gas, 14pool/16hatch has the same problem, although the second hatch and therefore gas do come about 20 seconds faster. If you want to get gas sooner, you have to delay the hatch, but that's true of either build. It's just something you have to adjust for, and you might want to do something like double-gas after the 18hatch, which is something that would be a lot harder to pull off with a 16hatch.
These sorts of questions are the reason I'd really like to see people actually trying stuff out rather than theory-crafting and saying "this is going to be worse because of X, Y, and Z". IMO, the OP did his part, in showing that a build that would normally be considered as making pretty big economy sacrifices can actually hold its own against the best economic builds out there.
And yeah, the thread title is a little over the top, since the posted "build" is just a drone race. But I honestly think there's a lot of potential here, if people would just stop flaming and theorycrafting and actually try some shit out.
So again I say to the naysayers: give me a real build with a "standard" opening, and I'll run side-by-side comparisons of the standard version vs the best 11pool version I can come up with. The OP did quite a lot of testing and posted replays, while you're simply theorycrafting. I'm even offering to do your testing for you, you lazy bastards.
|
just played another game. my army size is overwhelming in the early mid game. so intimidating in fact he takes an island instead of his nat. i think it has to do with building so many drones at once. your economy just skyrockets in 2 larva cycles, at which point u can pump units. i made lings so i put down a 3rd hatch in my main.
the first 16 drones i make never come off mining. you DO have mineral excess. you have plenty of money to saturate your main and nat in 2 larva cycles.
when he mules our economy graphs are EQUAL. during all other points i have several hundred more minerals per minute mining. final resource tallies are me winning by more then 10k.
i think this terran played standard. he tried hellions banshees and thors. maybe not the most skilled player but none of us are. this is a normal game.
there is about a 1-2 minute section early game (<20 workers) where he has a slight advantage. and i then overtake him for the rest of the game.
http://replayfu.com/download/hKtpsk
if you doubt the viability of this build watch this replay and poke holes in it.
|
On December 03 2010 05:33 Vaporized wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 05:18 Conrose wrote:On December 03 2010 02:09 BodyMassageMachine wrote:On December 02 2010 15:12 Conrose wrote: I think this build is quite vulnerable to hidden tech, particularly in the case of DTs, Phoenix openings, Banshees and Vikings. ZvZ, you'll really want to catch when they put down that Baneling Nest and hotkey your Drones. I also see early Muta harass being potentially dangerous with this BO. However, vs the current FotM builds, it is flexible enough to hold up. Isn't every build vulnerable to hidden tech? I mean, if you haven't scouted their tech, how are you going to properly prepare for it? When your opponent scouts an 11-pool, I think they'll be reluctant to tech straight to air and focus more on defensive measures. When they're fearful of a rush, they will pour funds into their army, delaying their tech and allowing this build to 'catch up,' although it seems like you're already ahead since you're fast teching to Spawning Pool and giving you the option of attacking or macro'ing. And also, when you scout your opponent and see them fast teching with no (or few) units, transitioning into early aggression is a lot easier when you're Spawning Pool is already completed. When your opponent shows early aggression, it's a lot easier to defend with your Spawning Pool completed. Spine Crawlers already take eons to build - it'd take a bit longer if you're waiting for the Spawning Pool to finish. What I mean by vulnerable to hidden tech is that it takes significantly longer to set up the proper response to a hidden play after it has been revealed one way or another since the BO is late on gas, therefor late on various hard counters to more gimmicky plays. Lets take a BO with usuall gas times, someone tries a DT Play on you, you already have your lair almost by default, so you are only an Overseer Morph away from countering the DT's so hard his head spins. Vs a DT Play and you don't have your lair up yet because you late gassed, or worse yet, Late Gas into Speedlings, you'll be in for a world of hurt, they may even decide to snipe your constructing Lair and Spawning Pool to force you into GG. Phoenix Openings will be particularly troublesome considering how much damage they can do in how little time it takes to do it with only a handful of Queens available to defend against them and in a very bad scenario, still a lair away from any massable response like Hydras. Cloaked plays can also play on the same slow tech vulnerabilities. 11 Pool in and of itself is cause for concern, but a Gasless 11 Overpool is very easy to defend against as Protoss or Terran if you do indeed confirm it is gasless. And with only Drones to defend against the scout if you really do drone hard with this build usually means the scouting harvester will be able to stick around for quite a while to see you not gassing quite yet. At that point, the P can choose to wall off and rush to DT or Phoenix. with proper scouting (ol sac at ~26-30 depending on what your scouting drone saw) nothing is a problem with this build. you can adapt to anything. i had one game where a terran was massing thors. i saw 2 factories, with 2 tech labs before he had any thors out. i switched out of ling/baneling and went roach/baneling/infestor and owned.
Not all players are above building a pylon in less scouted areas for their Stargate or their Dark Shrine (Some maps provide very good places to build their tech away from prying eyes, and DT Tech is particularly troublesome in that the Twilight Council Pre-req provides Charge and Blink upgrades that can just as easily explain the lack of a properly sized army or visible tech as a Dark Shrine can when you suicide your overlord. I almost always proxy my dark shrine since if it gets scouted, it's useless anyways, and a proxy pylon is always useful to some extent)
i lost to a toss that did go dt. but that wasn't because he caught me with no detection. i just played like shit, suiciding my army +overseers into his cannons a few times.
I know what you mean, you set your Overseers on follow and it just turns out that the unit you set it on follow happened too make its way to the front of the line somehow and manages to be ignored by enemy attacks for some reason resulting in not only your Overseers being shot, but also not automatically running away from the attacker because "HEY, I am still following something." Now I mostly set them up in a separate control group to avoid that sort of problem in the future.
Also, good micro (Or frantic waypoints) can keep a scout alive for a surprisingly long time vs a Queen + a handful of nospeed-lings if they know enough to keep far enough from the creep to keep the zerglings from taking advantage of creep speed. but close enough to get around the edges of the creep faster than the queen can.
That said, I do enjoy variants of the 11 Overpool opening, it seems the most proactive of all the builds.
|
This build is interesting, I will try to test it myself when I finish this post but I want to know how the following screws up the economy of it: 1: Getting gas around the same time you'd get it for a hatch first? 2: Making 2, 4, or 6 lings? 3: Drone scouting after you put down the pool?
It seems like you are sacrificing income until your first inject comes in so I can see it hurting the build - at the same time you might only need lings to defend against rushes, and you can use the inject to get lings out around the time a normal hatch first?
Alright so I tested it. 1: You can gas around the time your hatch goes down and it will delay the second queen but otherwise your economy has already recovered so its not a big deal. 2: Your inject will pop about 30 seconds or so after a typical 13 scout 15 hatch 14 pool opening's pool will finish, so if you do have to make any lings the inject will be able to add a massive reinforcement or a drone pump if you don't need them. 3: If you send a drone scout after your pool goes down, it will be just after a typical 13 drone scout. However, it will hurt you more and you might want to wait for the first drone that pops out after your pool goes down if you want to only suffer a similar economy deficit.
I think this might be the new go to build for a 2 player map. For a 4 player where you're less likely to be blocked, and may want to scout earlier, hatch or pool first might be more reasonable, but only because this build is hurt more for every drone they don't make more than a normal build because the loss of getting a faster pool is only made up when the inject pops but perhaps its not as bad as I think.
Cool build! Looks like a great way to FE against toss like overpool was. He can't cannon rush and he can't nex first. I think the drone scout is important so you know how many lings you need to punish greed/defend a rush//stop an expo block.
|
On December 02 2010 09:01 spongythingz wrote: Would there be a similar build which adds gas for the super crucial ling speed and a scout. Or since the pool was up so early, could you use the first pair of lings? I've been adding an extractor at 16 and it seems you can squeeze a hatch, speed and get 100 minerals before the larvae pops (provided you take drones off gas at 100).
Vs Terran, I usually go 11 OverPool/13 Queen and Drone until I can get gas between Larva... this usually isn't long after the queen starts for Speedlings/Banelings to beat back the early bioballs and thor plays. Not sure how to adapt it for vs Zerg quite yet but vs Protoss it transitions into Speedlings and Fast Roaches very well... squeezing out picket lings shouldn't be a problem.
|
To help put some of the criticisms to rest regarding this builds gas/speed timing, as well as it's viability in ZvZ, I have provided a 7th replay. Enjoy poking new holes into this one too...
|
On December 03 2010 06:23 Skrag wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 06:11 fleeze wrote: some additional thoughts though: - if you don't build the drones you ARE behind (as you need them to catch up... already forgot about this?) - you lack the minerals the standard build will have mined (see kcdc's post) - you won't have an expansion (as a 14/15 hatch would) - you won't have gas for speed or banes (as a 14 pool would)
conclusion: your behind compared to a standard build.
*If you don't build the drones* that is true. But if you didn't need the zerglings to hold off the pressure, then you can still build the drones. And if you *did* need the zerglings, then guess what? Your standard build just died, because it didn't have them, or took a shit-ton of damage, and you're behind just as much, if not more.
i saw fruitdealer hold it with a standard build today and many others also did. your not as safe as an 11 pool but the larvae spawn of a 14 pool or the extra larvae of a 15 hatch arrive just in time to defend normally. no need to build the zerglings earlier (and if you didn't build them you just lost there with your 11 pool since you have to wait another 45 sec) also my whole point was that you don't build the drones.... not about if you did... show me how to hold a 2 rax without any zerglings...
Show nested quote + And seriously wtf at saying 2rax blind counters an 11pool? I'm calling bullshit.
2 rax pressure openings won't let you produce the drones needed to catch up. you also can't attack (wall-in) and you have no gas to threaten it because of the wall-in even if you beat the initial push (fe baneling bust). also you won't get your 18 hatch through. this is theorycraft on my side btw but seems pretty plausible (and is not my main argument). Again, you have the *opportunity* to build zerglings faster if you need them. You also already have the earlier queen for extra defense. Everything else you said applies equally to a 14pool. If 2rax pressure is strong enough that you're not going to get the 18 hatch through, then chances are very good that you wouldn't get a 16hatch through either. Neither of them is going to have creep in time to place crawlers if we're talking about pressure so early that you're building lings from your first queen larvae spawn. But seriously...if you *need* the zerglings that early, you can have them, which is something that simply can't be said about the 14pool. a 14 pool will have the zerglings in time for nearly any early push. it is considered a very "safe" build. 14/15 hatch you need good prediction and larvae saving but you have the creep at your natural faster. that's why these 2 builds are standard. 14 pool for small maps/close position, 14/15 hatch for long distances.
Show nested quote + btw we are talking about an economically superior 11 pool here, seems like most of you forget about this.
The whole point of this opening is that it gives you a ton of flexibility. It can lead to either strong 1base play if that's what you want or need, or it can lead to a very strong economic build that is comparable to 14hatch builds. That is the point that *you* seem to be forgetting.
no this is the point i am arguing. fast pool builds rely on early pressure to pay the early investment else they are behind and if it is put under pressure it's behind for sure (it did no damage and can't catch up). especially with the current meta game (fe 2 rax). you as well as the op ignore the fact that there is an opponent in the game that won't allow you to build drones if he scouted your build which is also pretty easy to see with a standard scout timing. who builds an 11 pool for pressure and doesn't safe larvae for those 3 zerglings?
|
On December 03 2010 05:42 Skrag wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 05:25 Lomilar wrote: I agree, Conrose, that it seems like this build is made for late gas, but really, we did not even consider putting gas into the build. What I (not sure about JD or the others) wanted to prove is that it is a superior opening to any hatch first build While I think this build is a strong opening, that last statement depends on how you define "superior". Hatch first builds are still ahead economically, with 14h/15p appearing to be the leader overall, and 14h/14p making a very small economic sacrifice to get a slight larva advantage, so I don't know if you believe you've successfully proved that 11OP is a superior opening, but if so, I would have to disagree. It's clearly not superior for every situation. What I think has been proved, though, is that an 11 pool opening can turn into an economic build that isn't *that* far behind the "best" economic builds. Not nearly as far behind as most people would imagine, for sure.
I define superior as better in most situations.
There is a bit of an economic loss, but it is _so_ much safer against every form of cheese or early pressure. Its earlier lings, an earlier queen, a later expo that can't be probe blocked because you can have 2 lings out at that point in time... I dunno, it just seems so much better.
|
On December 03 2010 06:40 Slayer91 wrote: This build is interesting, I will try to test it myself when I finish this post but I want to know how the following screws up the economy of it: 1: Getting gas around the same time you'd get it for a hatch first? 2: Making 2, 4, or 6 lings? 3: Drone scouting after you put down the pool?
It seems like you are sacrificing income until your first inject comes in so I can see it hurting the build - at the same time you might only need lings to defend against rushes, and you can use the inject to get lings out around the time a normal hatch first?
If you're worried about screwing up the economy, don't do any of those things.
Or, better yet, do them at the same time you would have done them on a 14pool. If you typically build a set of lings as soon as a 14pool finishes, that doesn't mean you have to build those same 2 lings as soon as the 11pool finishes. Wait a supply or two, and you'll have them at the same time as you're used to having them, without actually doing anything to your economy that you weren't already doing with the 14pool.
Seriously, I don't understand why this is confusing. If you're used to sending a drone scout as soon as your pool goes down with a 14pool, that scout has a certain amount of impact on your economy. If you 11pool, and still send a scout when the pool goes down, that scout will have a bigger impact on your economy. But if you simply wait 20 seconds and then send a drone, the it has the same impact, and sees things at exactly the same time.
And yes, you are sacrificing a *very small amount* of income until your first inject comes in, but after that inject comes in, you're *ahead*. You're not just catching up, you're *pulling ahead*. You pay a price earlier to pay dividends later. And to be perfectly honest, the price isn't nearly as large as a lot of people are trying to make it out to be.
|
On December 03 2010 06:04 Skrag wrote: This is where I agree with you. The tests were pure 6 minute drone races, and 11pool beat everything except for 14hatch. But you can't just claim this makes the 11pool worthless, without showing examples of how and where it fails. The original post is a foundation, not a build. You're claiming that it would be worse at actual builds, but haven't even attempted to provide any proof. Sorry, but the onus is on you. The OP showed that 11pool can be superior economically to any other pool-first build.
So pick a build, something that you would typically do with a 14pool/16hatch, and I'll be more than happy to run detailed in-game tests, because although I'm intrigued about the possibilities here, I also would like to see how it holds up in real in-game situations where you're doing more than just building workers.
That would help a ton with this duscussion. Just do something reasonably safe with a 14 pool 16 hatch with an extractor trick before OL to keep the comparison as close as possible. Send a drone to scout after your OL finishes. Get a pair of zerglings and an extractor after your queen, research zergling speed at 100 gas, and make some zerglings and a spine crawler when your hatch finishes. Pull drones off gas after 100 for speed. Then note what your defense is at each point in time and your total resources mined. Try to match that level of defense off of an 11 pool and compare the total resources mined. Certain things might not match up--the 11 pool won't have the creep as early for a spine crawler at the nat, so you might want to start it in your main and move it down or compensate with more zerglings. Try to get zergling speed at about the same time in both cases as being 30 seconds late on both speed and your spine crawler is a huge deal in the game.
|
On December 03 2010 06:53 Skrag wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 06:40 Slayer91 wrote: This build is interesting, I will try to test it myself when I finish this post but I want to know how the following screws up the economy of it: 1: Getting gas around the same time you'd get it for a hatch first? 2: Making 2, 4, or 6 lings? 3: Drone scouting after you put down the pool?
It seems like you are sacrificing income until your first inject comes in so I can see it hurting the build - at the same time you might only need lings to defend against rushes, and you can use the inject to get lings out around the time a normal hatch first? If you're worried about screwing up the economy, don't do any of those things. Or, better yet, do them at the same time you would have done them on a 14pool. If you typically build a set of lings as soon as a 14pool finishes, that doesn't mean you have to build those same 2 lings as soon as the 11pool finishes. Wait a supply or two, and you'll have them at the same time as you're used to having them, without actually doing anything to your economy that you weren't already doing with the 14pool. Seriously, I don't understand why this is confusing. If you're used to sending a drone scout as soon as your pool goes down with a 14pool, that scout has a certain amount of impact on your economy. If you 11pool, and still send a scout when the pool goes down, that scout will have a bigger impact on your economy. But if you simply wait 20 seconds and then send a drone, the it has the same impact, and sees things at exactly the same time. And yes, you are sacrificing a *very small amount* of income until your first inject comes in, but after that inject comes in, you're *ahead*. You're not just catching up, you're *pulling ahead*. You pay a price earlier to pay dividends later. And to be perfectly honest, the price isn't nearly as large as a lot of people are trying to make it out to be.
I updated the post. But no, I wouldn't scout as soon as a 14 pool goes down, a normal scout timing is 9 ol and then when your 2 larva pop and a third is coming you send one of the drones to scout. It turns out this is just after you put down your pool, and have 3 larva which you want to convert ASAP. so your scout will have to be a little later. I understand you don't need to make the lings immediately, but making lings will have a slightly bigger impact as you're still recovering. I don't think its that bad though, because really the main loss is the drone building the pool is gone earlier and a little bit of lost mining time from delaying the 3 drones.
If you're worried about screwing up the economy, don't do any of those things. What, so I don't scout, don't take gas, and don't make any lings? Lol? The whole point was how does this build work as a reactionary. If it works fine if they go 1 rax tech but if they go 2 rax pressure having to make an early ling speed or more lings early, even if its only as early as a hatch first, can upset the way the build works and it might end up being behind a 14 hatch. (i.e, vs 6 pool//proxy gate build its better, vs econ builds its better, but it might be weak vs middle of the road pressure builds like 2 rax) From testing, it looks like its not a big deal, I don't understand why you're so hostile defending this build. We just need to figure it out its not a goddamn contest.
|
On December 03 2010 06:48 fleeze wrote: i saw fruitdealer hold it with a standard build today and many others also did. your not as safe as an 11 pool but the larvae spawn of a 14 pool or the extra larvae of a 15 hatch arrive just in time to defend normally.
Then you don't need the zerglings.
SO DON'T BUILD THEM.
Why are you making this so much more difficult than it needs to be?
no this is the point i am arguing. fast pool builds rely on early pressure to pay the early investment else they are behind and if it is put under pressure it's behind for sure (it did no damage and can't catch up). See, this is one of the myths that the OP is trying to dispel IMO. You *pull ahead* (not catch up, PULL AHEAD) very quickly with this build when compared to a 14pool.
You don't actually have to do damage with early pressure in order to "catch up" to a 14pool. You're already ahead. Only the true economic builds, 14-16 hatch first, did better in economy than the 11pool.
If you get pressured early, and make too many lings too early, yes, you will be behind. Regardless of what your actual opening is.
If you need the lings to defend, you make them, regardless of whether you started with an 11 pool or a 14 pool. If you don't need them, and you make them, you sacrifice some economy. That's nothing special to an 11 pool though.
Seriously what are you trying to say here, that 14pool is better because it PREVENTS you from making too many lings too soon, because you *cant*?
you as well as the op ignore the fact that there is an opponent in the game that won't allow you to build drones if he scouted your build which is also pretty easy to see with a standard scout timing.
Ok, so your opponent scouts an 11 pool, and he instantly decides that he's going to try to put pressure on, knowing perfectly well that you'll be capable of building adequate defenses to his pressure because you put down an early pool, and also believing (incorrectly) that you'll have to try to do some damage to justify the early pool.
Do you realize how ridiculous this actually sounds? If anything, seeing the 11pool is going to make him play more defensively.
|
Alright, I can see where your frustration is coming from, people don't seem to get that the fast pool is good because the fast inject allows more drones and thus a better econ. You don't have to make any lings at all, and in fact, they have to do a lot of damage to make it worth not just spamming drones.
I'm interested to see if this will replace all other pool first builds. Hatch first still useful for the fast creep and overall bigger macro potential.
Also notice that you gain more drones period from the faster inject, (unless the waste of 1/2 a drone and slightly slower hatch evens it) so even having less minerals it will catch up. The case it won't catch up is that there is some form of pressure so you can't power drones and you can't spend all your larvae, and the extra mineral guy can still afford to power more drones, but it seems like a theoretical situation that won't happen too often.
EDIT: This build should be great for Zvz. In cases neither of you are expanding, the mineral loss will probably not come into play while the larvae advantage will.
|
On December 03 2010 07:04 Slayer91 wrote: What, so I don't scout, don't take gas, and don't make any lings? Lol?
No, what I'm saying is don't do them any *sooner* than you would with a 14pool. A drone taken off minerals at a particular time has the same impact regardless of whether you happened to put your pool down at 11 or 14.
The whole point was how does this build work as a reactionary. If it works fine if they go 1 rax tech but if they go 2 rax pressure having to make an early ling speed or more lings early, even if its only as early as a hatch first, can upset the way the build works and it might end up being behind a 14 hatch.
Here we go again. And this is one of the reasons I'm being so hostile, because none of you seem to be actually reading anything I'm posting. If 2 rax pressure forces you to make early ling speed or more lings, then you need those things regardless of whether you 11pooled or 14pooled. If you build them too early on an 11 pool start *because you could* then yes, you will be behind the 14 pool. SO DON'T DO THAT IF YOU'RE CONCERNED ABOUT BEING BEHIND ECONOMICALLY. Build them when you normally would have, and the impact on the economy is exactly the same. The 2rax pressure can't force you to turn the larvae that would normally have been drones 16 and 17 into lings instead of drones, if the 14pool build didn't need them to be lings. It can't force you to make lings any earlier than a 14pool would have. The fact that you 11pooled doesn't magically make the pressure come any sooner.
But if you want the option of being able to build lings earlier in order to have an easier time holding off the pressure, then you have the option of doing so. If you choose to do so, you will be economically behind a more standard start. However: OPTION, not requirement.
And btw, this opening is actually behind a 14hatch economically. Compared to later pool-first builds, though, it is slightly behind early, but pulls ahead pretty quickly, and eventually compares reasonably favorably to a hatch-first opening economically, if you choose to take that route. Which, again, is an OPTION, not a requirement.
|
On December 03 2010 07:10 Slayer91 wrote: Alright, I can see where your frustration is coming from, people don't seem to get that the fast pool is good because the fast inject allows more drones and thus a better econ. You don't have to make any lings at all, and in fact, they have to do a lot of damage to make it worth not just spamming drones.
Yes, exactly. Thank you. I apologize for my hostility, but this is exactly the point I've been trying to get across.
|
On December 03 2010 07:10 Slayer91 wrote: Hatch first still useful for the fast creep and overall bigger macro potential.
I also agree with this wholeheartedly. In fact, if you're Fruitdealer, and are perfectly confident of your ability to both scout and defend against cheese, as well as hold off early pressure without taking too much damage with a hatch-first build, that's exactly what you should do. And frankly, I still don't see any reason to not hatch-first on maps that support it very nicely, like shakuras, jungle basin, and metalopolois. As for which hatch-first build to use, 14hatch/15pool seems to be the best of the bunch, with 14hatch/14pool sacrificing a small amount of economy for better larvae production.
The rest of us, who are a little less godlike, might be interested to know that there's a very early pool opening that can actually compete against those hatch-first builds.
It's also worth noting that there have been some pretty high-level players saying lately that hatch-first is simply extremely risky in a lot of situations. In GSL2, Artosis even went as far as saying that you simply can't hatch-first at high levels anymore, although I can't remember if he was specifically referring to the ZvP matchup, where there's a very easy protoss response to hatch-first builds that will flat out win you the game most of the time.
|
On December 03 2010 06:53 Skrag wrote:And yes, you are sacrificing a *very small amount* of income until your first inject comes in, but after that inject comes in, you're *ahead*. You're not just catching up, you're *pulling ahead*. You pay a price earlier to pay dividends later. And to be perfectly honest, the price isn't nearly as large as a lot of people are trying to make it out to be.
Plus the fact that you actually have an earlier queen to help defend or the ability to pump out zerglings earlier if necessary vs. potential cheese. That sacrifice is -definitely- worth it. Liking this build a lot, thanks!
|
last post here. i see it's pointless arguing in this thread. facts will get ignored and your arguments turned around so they fit the op. or just questions answered that weren't even asked even in the quoted posts while ignoring the whole point...
On December 03 2010 07:05 Skrag wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 06:48 fleeze wrote: i saw fruitdealer hold it with a standard build today and many others also did. your not as safe as an 11 pool but the larvae spawn of a 14 pool or the extra larvae of a 15 hatch arrive just in time to defend normally.
Then you don't need the zerglings. SO DON'T BUILD THEM. Why are you making this so much more difficult than it needs to be?
i was talking about a 2 rax pressure terran against this build. you don't build zerglings against 2 rax pressure? well good luck then surviving with your "safe" 11 pool....
Show nested quote +no this is the point i am arguing. fast pool builds rely on early pressure to pay the early investment else they are behind and if it is put under pressure it's behind for sure (it did no damage and can't catch up). See, this is one of the myths that the OP is trying to dispel IMO. You *pull ahead* (not catch up, PULL AHEAD) very quickly with this build when compared to a 14pool. You don't actually have to do damage with early pressure in order to "catch up" to a 14pool. You're already ahead. Only the true economic builds, 14-16 hatch first, did better in economy than the 11pool.
i was comparing it to both you know? usually i prefer hatch first builds. op says this build is better economically than a 14/15 hatch. i say it's bullshit because it wastes larvae and has high opportunity costs(less minerals overall) early on. and it's behind a 14 pool if put under pressure. these are my main points.
If you get pressured early, and make too many lings too early, yes, you will be behind. Regardless of what your actual opening is.
right. but a 14 pool has more drones and minerals initially (before the first spawn arrives) so it is better to 14 pool against pressure due to the better economy. again you totally miss my point.
If you need the lings to defend, you make them, regardless of whether you started with an 11 pool or a 14 pool. If you don't need them, and you make them, you sacrifice some economy. That's nothing special to an 11 pool though.
Seriously what are you trying to say here, that 14pool is better because it PREVENTS you from making too many lings too soon, because you *cant*?
i'm saying a 14 pool has a better eco if put under pressure compared to an 11 pool that needs to catch up in drones and mining time it sacrificed.
Show nested quote +you as well as the op ignore the fact that there is an opponent in the game that won't allow you to build drones if he scouted your build which is also pretty easy to see with a standard scout timing. Ok, so your opponent scouts an 11 pool, and he instantly decides that he's going to try to put pressure on, knowing perfectly well that you'll be capable of building adequate defenses to his pressure because you put down an early pool, and also believing (incorrectly) that you'll have to try to do some damage to justify the early pool. Do you realize how ridiculous this actually sounds? If anything, seeing the 11pool is going to make him play more defensively.
good players can read a game pretty well. even i would be pretty suspicious if i see an 11 pool and there are no larvae safed up to build zerglings at all. also the fast second overlord in an overpool build will make many players suspicious that this is in fact a zerg trying to build drones. if by "defensively" you mean he will build more units that could be true. and this is the point i already stated in my first post in this thread. he will build units and you want to build drones (remember: drones you need to catch up to match the eco of a standard build). he attacks (or threatens an attack) and you have to build zerglings putting you behind. he may even get your 18 hatch (which is ~27 seconds later than the 16 hatch, you forgot the wasted larvae time in your previous post). overall your behind if put under pressure compared to a 14 pool or 15 hatch although you have an easier time to defend it. you even cannot counter attack because you only got lings and no gas. i'm out.
|
pssstt... hey guys... psssst....
While you all were busy having an internet argument and theorycrafting, I was actually testing the criticisms in game... Take a look at the OP please... Pretty please...
Fleeze, maybe you shouldn't look, since it basically counters everything you stated in your previous post...
|
|
|
|