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United States238 Posts
On December 07 2010 03:32 Mohdoo wrote: All of the cheesy quick-game Terran play has given me little incentive to buy another GSL ticket. Its just not fun to watch. I doubt I will buy a GSL4 ticket for just this reason. Its interesting to see it a few games, but when pulling almost all your SCVs to attack with a bunch of marines becomes "standard", its complete shit. So little diversity, so little excitement. Its not exactly a thrilling unit composition.
Terran players can't help it. It only makes the game challenging (unsafe) for them if they want to play straight up macro with a Zerg that knows what they are doing.
If you were in Rain's shoes, do you want to play only macro games against someone like Nestea or FruitDealer?
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kinda sucks for this guy getting all the blame. plenty of terran's of lesser skill have done this strat created by marinkingprime. even in his post game interview he didn't seem too happy about it, not really the kind of happiness you would expect in a guy who is in the semi's of the gsl. I was pretty upset at first with the series but really he did what was best to ensure victory. He lost two macro games pretty horribly to nestea so rushing is the best option for him. He shouldn't have to apologize for anything.
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This is a balanceflaw that wont stop untill Blizzard takes action. Many players can keep up with the very best if doing this so why shouldnt they? 0% winrate when trying macro, 100% winrate when scvmarinebunker cheese. There is no reason why Terrans should stop doing this, it is by far the best option a lot of them have.
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damn, the more i read about gsl, the more happy i am, that i havent bought one this season.
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All of the QQ over this bo5 really makes me lose confidence in this community. This is a tournament where the player who wins goes on to the next round, not the better player goes to the next round. In this bo5 series he won 3 games and that qualifies him for the next round, doesn't matter if you don't like his style of play or how he did it.
He even admitted himself that he had personal problems that got in the way of his preparation and as such had to resort to different strats and hoped they worked. Well guess what, they DID work and you can't judge him for that. It's not like this type of play is unstoppable, IMNestea made a few mistakes and rain was able to capitalize on them.
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People should be mad at NesTea for not throwing down blind spine crawlers. If he dies to all-ins then that means that he's being greedy.
Look at BW. Zerg knew the timings at which Terran could threaten them so they would prepaer for an attack - it didn't matter if the Terran was to attack or not.
Zerg playing ín a way that kept them safe from all-ins would weaken their mid-game but it would probably lead to good games.
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On December 07 2010 03:33 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 03:31 Lonyo wrote:On December 07 2010 03:28 Maggeus wrote: I stand to my opinion when the match finished : going hatch first in every game on every map cost Nestea the game. 2 rax into 4 rax marines is absolutely unstoppable on some maps if you are going to hatch first, coupled with some SCVs.
As Artosis said, going all-in is something every pro do. But what's important is when you do it. Just like when JD goes fast pool against Flash to punish a 14 CC, Rain went for a 2 into 4 rax against a 14 hatch. What's so wrong with that ? But an early push beats a macro opening. That's wrong. Zerg should be able to open with their best macro game without any fear of a terran push. Clearly the game is broken because zergs can't safely manage to go for their most economic opening every game. Also, like others have said, don't blame Rain for trying to win. One problem here is one which doesn't even need Blizzard intervention. It's called custom maps. Instead of using maps with short rush distances where early pressure/all-ins are easier due to short distances, or where there are choke 'issues' etc, make maps which don't necessarily have these features. dont be stupid, the 'best macro opening' is the only chance at beating the build because terran barely has to sacrifice anything to do it. means if you do anything but hatch expand it doesnt matter if you live, you'll never catch up in econ. Well doesnt this sound like you are playing a pretty badly designed game. Where one build is the only chance you have to beat another build.
I respect you as a player man, but there is never only 1 way to handle something. Why we gotta be so negative.
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When BoxeR was doing all-in in StarCraft 1, it was ok... Now it isn't? Wtf?
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Eh who cares if he cheesed? He entered the tournament because he wants to win it. Not because he wants to be known for some super uber play. It's like 90K dollars or something? Everyone and their mother would do anything to win.
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don't hate the player hate the game
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On December 07 2010 03:31 Lonyo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 03:28 Maggeus wrote: I stand to my opinion when the match finished : going hatch first in every game on every map cost Nestea the game. 2 rax into 4 rax marines is absolutely unstoppable on some maps if you are going to hatch first, coupled with some SCVs.
As Artosis said, going all-in is something every pro do. But what's important is when you do it. Just like when JD goes fast pool against Flash to punish a 14 CC, Rain went for a 2 into 4 rax against a 14 hatch. What's so wrong with that ? But an early push beats a macro opening. That's wrong. Zerg should be able to open with their best macro game without any fear of a terran push.
Are you kidding me? Someone should be able to go nearly 4 minutes without a single attacking unit and expect to able to hold early aggression?
I'm sorry but no. What happens if Protoss wants to go for 'their best macro game' and goes Nexus first vs Speedling opening? Or early pool in general?
You can't just whip your balls out in public and expect everybody to enjoy it. It's a calculated risk going hatch first and you reap what you sow.
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I don't like watching cheese games, but Zergs themselves have done enough of them. None other than FruitDealer cheesed oGsInca twice in the round of 8 in GSL1 shamelessly, frustrating Inca so much that he left without GGing.
So yeah, that's a very important thing to remember.
Another fact is, you cannot let Zerg expand all over the place. After that, it is too difficult to contain and win against them. So cheese is OK against Zerg right now. Otherwise, even average Zerg players roflstomp good P or T.
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United States238 Posts
On December 07 2010 03:39 slimshady wrote: When BoxeR was doing all-in in StarCraft 1, it was ok... Now it isn't? Wtf?
Truth to be said, when BoxeR did his legendary "sam yeon bung" or "3x bunkering" vs. Yellow, he did get a ton of insults and negative comments -- some netizens even calling on him to go die.
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On December 07 2010 03:40 yarkO wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 03:31 Lonyo wrote:On December 07 2010 03:28 Maggeus wrote: I stand to my opinion when the match finished : going hatch first in every game on every map cost Nestea the game. 2 rax into 4 rax marines is absolutely unstoppable on some maps if you are going to hatch first, coupled with some SCVs.
As Artosis said, going all-in is something every pro do. But what's important is when you do it. Just like when JD goes fast pool against Flash to punish a 14 CC, Rain went for a 2 into 4 rax against a 14 hatch. What's so wrong with that ? But an early push beats a macro opening. That's wrong. Zerg should be able to open with their best macro game without any fear of a terran push. Are you kidding me? Someone should be able to go nearly 4 minutes without a single attacking unit and expect to able to hold early aggression? I'm sorry but no. What happens if Protoss wants to go for 'their best macro game' and goes Nexus first vs Speedling opening? Or early pool in general? You can't just whip your balls out in public and expect everybody to enjoy it. It's a calculated risk going hatch first and you reap what you sow.
The difference is that even if you don't go nexus first, and zerg makes speedlings, you lose anyway because you can only make units out of 1 gateway for the rest of the game. Analogy doesn't work very well
BTW, this is what ret posted afew hours ago in the LR
On December 06 2010 19:36 Liquid`Ret wrote: people who keep talking about 'hatch first' really don't have a clue.. 2 rax constant marines dominates pool first so bad because there's only so few larve off 1 hatch untill after the first queen inject...the marines can just push you back non stop till that first inject finishes and you are in danger of being bunker blocked
not to mention you have to blindly make ~20 lings in that case so if terran just stops after 5 mariens and puts down a CC you are economically fucked
nestea fucked up his drone/ling control pretty bad there but hatch first is the only choice really...hency why steppes is auto loss vs terran, im sure nestea expected to lose set 2
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On December 07 2010 03:14 Chill wrote: As soon as you "want to see amazing games", you set up some WWE system where it's not people trying to win, but trying to put on a show.
I want people doing anything in their power to win. I want people playing the dirtiest games you've ever seen in your life because it's their best chance to win. And, as a side effect of this, when people do show amazing, drawn-out games, they will be that much more special because of the rarity. QFT. I want people to do anything legal to win. If you outlaw certain strategies due to an abstract sense of honour or skill, then you're not playing to win anymore.
If you can win every game by 6 pooling, do it. Yeah, it's annoying as an opponent, but if you're going to complain about it, l2p first.
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I've had these discussions in the UFC threads and Starcraft threads many times before. There's a guy in mma named Jon Fitch who is constantly getting questioned for his style. He is considered one dimensional and using the rule system to maximum advantage by making sure he takes points and don't really risk very much while getting them.
To me it's just about his opponents not being good enough. They simply cannot avoid having him on top punching them until the fight ends. I admit I have been quite bored in a few of his fights but that's because his opponent were to outclassed. (One could argue if take downs should score as much etc but that's not the case now)
Now he's going to fight a legend in the sport who is well known for having VERY good defenses against take downs in Bj Penn. This is so exciting to me because finally there's probably going to be a fight and not Fitch sleeping on top of a helpless dude.
Now to wrap this up my point is that in sports the rules must remain flexible because the competitors should always use every element of strategy and tactics to get the win. If Fitch goes out and tries to have a boxing match with Bj Penn then he's going to be stupid, look stupid and I will be disappointed.
I want to see zerg players not go hatch first on scrap station as much as I want to see terrans not make 2 rax aggression.
You can't blame the competitor, blame the rules in the game.
Edit: And if you blame the game, do so in a proper way. For example I think this might come down to maps. Imo a spine crawler should defend the expand and blistering sands/ xelnaga were spines are pretty bad is not good map design)
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I would never apologize for beating someone with cheese if they cannot defend it then its their own loss. It isn't Rain's job to entertain the fans. That is secondary to winning.
Give me a freaking break, you don't have to appease to the fans ever. Did Boxer ever apologize to Yellow for bunker rushing him three times in a row and winning? No.
This doesn't make Rain any less of a player, sorry.
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On December 07 2010 03:08 Brewers wrote:
Interestingly, TSL_Rain immediately posted "APOLOGY" on the biggest SC2 community in Korea. What he says was mainly about not showing as good games as the expectation for quarter final and matchups with Nestea. He certainly didn't want to go for early all-ins and had other plans deceiving the opponent by showing early pushes. But he won by early all-ins and apologized for that.
what?
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On December 07 2010 03:36 Selith wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 03:32 Mohdoo wrote: All of the cheesy quick-game Terran play has given me little incentive to buy another GSL ticket. Its just not fun to watch. I doubt I will buy a GSL4 ticket for just this reason. Its interesting to see it a few games, but when pulling almost all your SCVs to attack with a bunch of marines becomes "standard", its complete shit. So little diversity, so little excitement. Its not exactly a thrilling unit composition.
Terran players can't help it. It only makes the game challenging (unsafe) for them if they want to play straight up macro with a Zerg that knows what they are doing. If you were in Rain's shoes, do you want to play only macro games against someone like Nestea or FruitDealer?
You're right, but I feel like you misunderstood what I am saying. I am not blaming any specific person, whether the player or Blizzard or whatever. I am simply stating that as a viewer with a long history of competitive RTS, who has since stopped being competitive for the sake of school, I enjoy the depth of the game. There is no depth to 5 minute marine+scv pushes. 5 minute marine+scv pushes have become common in TvZ. TvZ is a common match up. Therefore, it is common for a common match up to be boring and uninteresting to me. Therefore, regardless of who is to "blame", I have less incentive to buy another ticket.
And yet, being someone with a long history with competitive RTS, I realize that these sorts of things have happened in the past in both WC3 and BW. Sometimes super cheesy boring shit surfaces. And it is used A LOT because of how effective it is. But sometimes, after about a month, it is "figured out" and no longer works. But sometimes, it plain and simply needs patching. Since it hasn't been very long, I will withhold judgment. But if it is not patched or figured out within the next month, it is the obligation of the player to try to diversify matches. I do not think it will come to that, though.
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Wow I'm stunned at the amount of people blaming the game and defending TSL_Rain here. Rain himself knows damn well he robbed spectators and nestea of a good game and a fair game right there and it's absolutely ridiculous for so many people to state terran can't win a macro war against zerg because this is simply not true.
Nestea definately could have done a better job defending these all ins but we all know this wasn't a fair game and that has nothing to do with race balance in the lategame, not wanting to play a full on macro game is not the only alternative, you can have timing pushes and slow push towards the zerg base. It's not one or the other.
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