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On December 07 2010 07:22 Techno wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 07:08 Angelbelow wrote: Hatch first isnt greedy, its our best option. Quoted Ret to hopefullly get the point across. Not when your playing against me its not. My bunker rushes eat that shit for breakfast.
Only against bads in bronze. Any zerg player worth his salt will place an overlord above his hatch for vision.
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from a spectator POV: I HATE watching 2rax all in
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Cheese or not, a win is a win.
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On December 07 2010 07:25 avilo wrote: Ok, so I just LOOOVEEEEE how Zergs complain about this, even Idra/Ret complain, but they conveniently leave out Z>T in a long macro game.
We get it. Two rax seems hard. But maybe complain for a balanced game, not a game where Zerg will have early game + late game dominance lmao...
if this really is a "problem" then TvZ lategame is as much a problem as this is, but Zergs keep their mouths shut about that don't they? Every top Zerg seems content to defend defend defend into freewin, so now when Terrans are like "fuck you Zergs, till blizz fixes lategame we're just gonna do this shit over and over," Zergs whine again? lol... well maybe lets fix problem at hand and then talk hypotheticals?
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On December 07 2010 07:25 avilo wrote: if this really is a "problem" then TvZ lategame is as much a problem as this is, but Zergs keep their mouths shut about that don't they? Every top Zerg seems content to defend defend defend into freewin, so now when Terrans are like "fuck you Zergs, till blizz fixes lategame we're just gonna do this shit over and over," Zergs whine again? lol...
No 2 rax from Jinro, where's Moon's free win?
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Blame the game not the player imo. He did what he needed to win.
Its the state of the game that make such things possible and as long as its doable people will abuse every little edge they can get to win.
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On December 07 2010 07:25 avilo wrote: Ok, so I just LOOOVEEEEE how Zergs complain about this, even Idra/Ret complain, but they conveniently leave out Z>T in a long macro game.
We get it. Two rax seems hard. But maybe complain for a balanced game, not a game where Zerg will have early game + late game dominance lmao...
if this really is a "problem" then TvZ lategame is as much a problem as this is, but Zergs keep their mouths shut about that don't they? Every top Zerg seems content to defend defend defend into freewin, so now when Terrans are like "fuck you Zergs, till blizz fixes lategame we're just gonna do this shit over and over," Zergs whine again? lol...
I never heard from progamers that Z>T in lategame. How can we know that if all games end before 12 min? Didn't Foxer, Jinro, Clide show some good macro games?
Also, you don't get the point of thread. People are talking about how games suck due to allin/cheese strategies, its bad for viewership. I don't see Zerg complaining about balance much here.
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On December 07 2010 07:07 VikingKong wrote: I literally do not understand. How can people think they're better than pros? What makes them think to themselves, "hey, when top-tier pros said they've done testing, i think they're wrong" and when they watch games, they decide that they have a deeper understanding of the game than literally some of the best players in the world.
So people who are saying pool before hatch: Ret and Idra are therefore lacking in game understanding compared to you? Despite them testing extensively? NesTea always going 14 hatch is obviously him being stubborn instead of him having a better understanding of the matchup? Because that's what you're saying. And that just seems ludicrous to me. No wonder the pros almost never post, and all of them avoid the strat forum like the plague.
If people were only following what the pro's said instead of using their own experiences combined with the experience of pro's then inovation would grind to a halt. We are not saying that Ret and idrA lack in comparison to us. Infact, I enjoy their feedback of why they think hatch first is better. I enjoy ANY feedback from pro's.
I admire pro's and I watch them every day in the GSL. I watch commentaries and I follow trends. But I won't copy exactly whatever they tell me is the end-all-be-all build until I have sufficient experience to say that that build might be the end-all-be-all build after all.
People need to not cling on to every word of a pro and play the game themselves and figure out what they feel is best. On the flip side pro's need to come down to earth and discuss strategies with the noob folk.
Right now the strategy forum is full of less knowledgeable players who discuss what works best for them. Unfortunally that demographic also likes to troll and/or flame. Which turns pro's and really good players off, completely understandable. Gems like for example Plexa's PvZ guide are a rare occurance but when they do get posted people admire and almost worship such valuable input. How does a monkey know what the best way to eat a banana is if the wise ones who do know sit at their part of the cage surrounded by rocks and trees out of the vision of every other monkey. While the rest of the monkeys only see other monkeys throwing feces at eachother and jamming banana's upside down against their jaws until the juice splatters out into their mouths?
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On December 07 2010 07:26 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 07:22 Techno wrote:On December 07 2010 07:08 Angelbelow wrote: Hatch first isnt greedy, its our best option. Quoted Ret to hopefullly get the point across. Not when your playing against me its not. My bunker rushes eat that shit for breakfast. Only against bads in bronze. Any zerg player worth his salt will place an overlord above his hatch for vision. most of the time you have to have both overlords situated around opponents base to have 10% chance to spot tech instead of the usual 5
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On December 07 2010 07:26 CellTech wrote: from a spectator POV: I HATE watching 2rax all in
I don't mind watching the early pushes (including some of the rushes in ZvZ play). It's all part of the game.
EDIT: in fact, I like having something happen instead of waiting 10+ minutes of building larger bases.
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On December 07 2010 07:27 Shana wrote: Cheese or not, a win is a win. This is all that needs to be said. When thousands of dollars are on the line, you either play to win or go home a loser.
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On December 07 2010 07:21 Synk wrote:Show nested quote +It's simple, if you can't defend your 14/15 hatch, dont do it. If the argument is that no one can defend a 14/15 hatch from 2 rax.... then 14/15 hatch is no longer viable against terran, unless you accept the risk. How is this a balance discussion? You certainly arent going to lose just because you went pool first and delayed your hatch by a couple supply.
Nestea should have adjusted his play style if he wanted to win. Rain is obviously the better strategist, he chose the best strategy to counter Nestea. Whats the problem?
Guess I just don't understand... Ret and Idra have already posted saying that pool first is not stable against 2 rax all ins due to a larva shortage before your first queen's inject comes out. Also given that these guys are literally doing 100's of games a week and everyone knows how popular marine all-ins are don't you think they are using the best build they have found in their practice? If there was some sure fire defense to marine all-in's I'm sure we would have seen it from one of the pro's by now. I can also say from my own experience, because I have always gone pool first that 2 rax marines will beat you because he can deny your expo until nearly 30 supply with bunkers, once he gets control of your ramp and he will because your first inject comes too late, as do roaches and getting spinecrawlers at the top of your ramp takes until about 30 supply due to needing spread creep out to the ramp. You don't lose right away .. but not even being able to get down your ramp until 30 supply is nearly an un-winnable scenario every time.
Idra and Ret aren't exactly models of humility. I'm not saying that they're wrong but I think they both want it all. They want to believe that the most economical(insert: greediest) build is also the best build to defend against something like this.
I'd be more inclined to believe it if it came from more humble players.
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On December 07 2010 07:21 Synk wrote:Show nested quote +It's simple, if you can't defend your 14/15 hatch, dont do it. If the argument is that no one can defend a 14/15 hatch from 2 rax.... then 14/15 hatch is no longer viable against terran, unless you accept the risk. How is this a balance discussion? You certainly arent going to lose just because you went pool first and delayed your hatch by a couple supply.
Nestea should have adjusted his play style if he wanted to win. Rain is obviously the better strategist, he chose the best strategy to counter Nestea. Whats the problem?
Guess I just don't understand... Ret and Idra have already posted saying that pool first is not stable against 2 rax all ins due to a larva shortage before your first queen's inject comes out. Also given that these guys are literally doing 100's of games a week and everyone knows how popular marine all-ins are don't you think they are using the best build they have found in their practice? If there was some sure fire defense to marine all-in's I'm sure we would have seen it from one of the pro's by now. I can also say from my own experience, because I have always gone pool first that 2 rax marines will beat you because he can deny your expo until nearly 30 supply with bunkers, once he gets control of your ramp and he will because your first inject comes too late, as do roaches and getting spinecrawlers at the top of your ramp takes until about 30 supply due to needing spread creep out to the ramp. You don't lose right away .. but not even being able to get down your ramp until 30 supply is nearly an un-winnable scenario every time.
Then perhaps a solution becomes apparent. You say that you need to get creep to the ramp, that the Terran denies your expo, and that you need the larva from the Hatchery. The lack of these things give Terrans control over your ramp, etc.
Well, Hatcheries produce creep, yes? And there's no rule that says you can't build Hatcheries at your ramp, right? So rather than relying on putting the Hatch at the expo, put it at your ramp. It gets you creep at the ramp, it allows you to create a wall-in with Spine Crawlers and the Hatchery, one that you can open at will. It gives you control over your ramp, and it gives you the extra larva you need to push the Terran back.
So maybe just trying different things is the solution.
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Tell me if this doesn't make sense: I don't blame him, but I do hold it against him.
I don't blame him for doing whatever it takes to win, but I'm definitely less impressed and less inclined to want him to take the GSL due to his methods.
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Hey guys, I heard when terran got supply before rax, everyone said early game pressure is no longer viable, and zerg is more safe? Does this mean the supply b4 rax complaint will no longer be an issue?
I read some post, but maybe in situations like this, the zerg can do the same thing they with cannon rush like build hatch inside main and reinforce with spine crawlers. just a thought
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On December 07 2010 07:34 Ympulse wrote:This is all that needs to be said. When thousands of dollars are on the line, you either play to win or go home a loser.
People aren't complaining that he cheesed, they are complaining that the cheese is too strong. Basically blizzard nerfed the reaper cheese and also nerfed the previous scv marine all in by reducing scv hp. Well its still too strong and needs more nerfing.
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Rain didnt do anything bad. In fact he did something good. He showed us what is the current state of game.
This strategy is undoubtedly boring to watch. If zerg wont find any better way to defend against it, Blizz should make some balance tweaks otherwise it will be the most boring match up.
And i would like to say that Jinro is doing great job and showing that Terran dont have to do this all the time. Terrans should just learn to expand and macro.
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On December 07 2010 07:38 Disastorm wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 07:34 Ympulse wrote:On December 07 2010 07:27 Shana wrote: Cheese or not, a win is a win. This is all that needs to be said. When thousands of dollars are on the line, you either play to win or go home a loser. People aren't complaining that he cheesed, they are complaining that the cheese is too strong. Basically blizzard nerfed the reaper cheese and also nerfed the previous scv marine all in by reducing scv hp. Well its still too strong and needs more nerfing.
bring back drone range :p
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On December 07 2010 07:07 Disastorm wrote: Its common knowledge that Zerg was significantly underpowered before the Roach buff. I think this has shown that Zerg is still underpowered even after the Roach buff. Either that, or Terran is just overpowered, or the maps are poorly made. There are a few possibilities, but I don't think anyone can say that Rain actually plays better than Nestea. Your post is as pathetic as your sig. Its balance crybabies who are ruining sc2, not all-ins.
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On December 07 2010 07:30 stiknork wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 07:25 avilo wrote: if this really is a "problem" then TvZ lategame is as much a problem as this is, but Zergs keep their mouths shut about that don't they? Every top Zerg seems content to defend defend defend into freewin, so now when Terrans are like "fuck you Zergs, till blizz fixes lategame we're just gonna do this shit over and over," Zergs whine again? lol... No 2 rax from Jinro, where's Moon's free win? Moon was such a bad player.
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