Koreans React to GSL Ro8 - Page 24
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Frankon
3054 Posts
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junemermaid
United States981 Posts
On December 07 2010 03:14 Chill wrote: As soon as you "want to see amazing games", you set up some WWE system where it's not people trying to win, but trying to put on a show. I want people doing anything in their power to win. I want people playing the dirtiest games you've ever seen in your life because it's their best chance to win. And, as a side effect of this, when people do show amazing, drawn-out games, they will be that much more special because of the rarity. Well said. | ||
Angelbelow
United States3728 Posts
On December 07 2010 07:48 dabom88 wrote: I'm in this group of people. I recognize the skill of pro Zerg players. And I can see the reasoning behind the argument of "14 Hatch is safest/best against 2-Rax". I see how it COULD be true. But until I see more non-14 Hatch builds vs. 2-Rax and see how they compare in viability, I don't think it's hard to see why I would be more convinced of the argument that 14 Hatch ISN'T the best opener against 2-Rax. Youre trying to be objective. That is a good thing, but in this situation I dont think youre being objective. Do you not think its possible that Idra and Ret practiced with pool first? They cant be that stupid can they? For them to proclaim that "strategy X" is the best way we found, do you assume that thats the only thing they tried? I'm willing to bet that they tried a bunch of variations before coming to a conclusion. As far as seeing a different opener vs a 2-rax, maybe we don't see it because all the zergs feel as if hatch first truly is better. | ||
senor_gomez
United States162 Posts
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FindingPride
United States1001 Posts
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noD
2230 Posts
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z00t
Australia976 Posts
You can't just make a 10-minute no-rush rule for SC2 - that's ridiculous. Knowing how to stop certain all-in attacks is a skill in itself. Even in BW, the better players know to expect some sort of cheesy strat from the lesser players because they know that the less-skilled players can't hope to go head-to-head with them in a macro game. And we don't blame those less-skilled players for sticking with some sort of early game play. So I don't understand why everyone's so riled up with Rain's games in particular. | ||
Kvz
United States463 Posts
As a 2500 Z (I stopped laddering 2 weeks ago) its really frustrating when people keep saying 'just go one base' or "learn to prepare for it" because in all honesty even if you see it coming, the terran can choose not to attack and just CC and expand behind a bunker. What do you do with the 24 lings you made now lol? Btw I have been experimenting with my practice partners going 14gas/14pool and the problem with this is that they terran can actually do a slow bunker push as you lack the zerglings early to really defend against it. I"m talking about a bunker to the far side of your natural to deny a natural and then continuously pushing to your ramp with it while blocking off their own base. | ||
Emperor_Earth
United States824 Posts
When I open CC first, a pool or gas first build beats me 85% of the time. Blizzard, please nerf zergling attacks. Here's also what I heard with small modifications. If I let Terran take every gold expansion and don't punish them for it, I'm screwed in the lategame! Blizzard, nerf nerf nerf! I know many SC2 players are new to TL.net... but geez, can't we focus on what we can do to give ourselves the best chance of winning rather than what we can bitch about to Blizzard until they give us the best chance of winning? I mean... does Blizzard even pay you to help them balance? You really got that much time and compassion to help them do their jobs? (Which they're infinitely better than you at doing.) Seriously... wtf. | ||
PulseSUI
Switzerland305 Posts
i don't care if blizzard wants to swing the nerf/buff stick or the players come up with a way to make it more intresting to watch, but something has to be done. during GSL1, i went to work early and took a extra long lunch break, so i could watch as much as possible of the streams. during GSL2, i did the same at the start, but the longer it went on, the less i did it, at the end i only read the updates in the live report thread, maybe checked if people claimed a game was a good watch and watched the VOD, did not even watch the finals. GSL3? i check the results, see if one of the games was rated as a good watch.. if it is game1 of the series, i will watch it, if not.. meh, who cares. the last tournament that i enjoyed watching was MLG Dallas, lots of great games. dreamhack was decent too... mainly because of the commentary by total-biscuit.. don't get me wrong, i enjoy playing starcraft2 but, for me at least, it looses rapidly in appel as a viewer e-sport. | ||
TheBanana
Norway2183 Posts
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LancerStarcraft
United States235 Posts
On December 07 2010 07:50 blade55555 wrote: this post shows you don't know anything about zerg. I'll explain to why top zergs are hatch firsting still even though there is 2 rax all ins all the time. If you go pool first guess what the terran can do to you? He can push make you cancel your expo (if you didn't make one he'll be even happier) then bunker contain you at the bottom of the ramp. Then the terran throws down his expo before the zerg can remake/start his if he goes pool first. So that means zerg is already incredibly behind as we all know terran getting his natural before a zerg is super bad for zerg. Also if you go hatch first you get more larva which = more zerglings when the push comes so you can defend. Nestea defended poorly as he should have been able to defend against that like he did against fake boxer. I'm gonna disagree with you, not because I think you don't know anything... >_> just because I have a different opinion than you. I'm not saying don't expand, I'm saying getting the pool first for two reasons. First, you get faster zergling speed, Second, because you can lings out when you KNOW 2 rax pressure is coming. I wasn't actually referring to NesTea in my post, but to use him as an example, he should have at least expected 2 rax since he lost to it twice before in the series. The point of going pool first is that you can defend against early marines/scvs. I didn't say that GSL Zergs should stop hatch before pooling, I said they should stop hatch before pooling when they know 2 rax is a possibility. I also don't understand how pooling first makes you MORE susceptible to bunker play. Getting lings faster should make you LESS susceptible to that. The whole reason the Marine/SCV all-in has come about is that Zergs are using 14 hatch to gain an economic edge. But Terrans realize that this makes Zerg open to losing straight up to early pressure all-ins. Zergs have to respond by diversifying their play to punish Terrans that do that. To conclude this text storm, "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results" | ||
happyness
United States2400 Posts
On December 07 2010 07:45 rackdude wrote: I can't blame him for what he did. A 14/15 hatch is kind of an economic cheese like a 15 nexus was in BW. I mean, it may be tough for BW players to say so, but with queens the hatch first isn't as necessary. And if you do get it early, with two queen the advantage you get just snowballs. The Tarran is then forced to counter cheese by 2raxing or taking a quick expansion. The quick expansions haven't been explored too much and I'd like to see more, but I can see that most Tarrans are not just going to put up with the quick expo. I mean, people are saying the late game is imbalanced against Tarran, but it only really ends up bad when the Zerg takes a 14 hatch, the Tarran doesn't early expand, and the Zerg just gets a bunch of drones early. Without the extra econ boost, the late game hasn't changed much from before the patch. Sure, roaches are better, but the mid/late game muta ling bling is still the same, add some ultras and whatnot. It's just that since the patch the 14 hatch is safer, and thus Zergs just have a TON more, and thus it's "imbalanced". A 14 hatch shouldn't be standard, something later like a 13 pool 16 hatch or the 11 pool 18 hatch puts you even in the late game, it's just a lot of Zergs like the free advantage late game. I agree. 14 hatch is a greedy play so the zerg can have a huge advantage late game. Really if they go pool first the match is more balanced both early game and late game. 14 hatch shouldn't be standard just like 15 nexus and 15 CC aren't standard. The problem is that the early all-in cheese can be held off. Unlike the protoss cannon cheese, which is strong enough and easy enough to execute that it prevents FE from zerg, the terran cheese has to be executed well to work. Nestea has probably encountered it many times and knows how to hold it off from lesser players but when executed well by the few who can he can't handle it. IMO, cheese should still exist, it just sucks that's it's so common. Did BW ever go through a similar phase? It seems like there are some pretty strong cheeses in BW but you don't see them every game(I don't know much about BW though) | ||
ParasitJonte
Sweden1768 Posts
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results That's actually a very bad definition. Then again, Einstein wasn't particularly keen on quantum mechanics. | ||
Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On December 07 2010 08:02 Kvz wrote: Heh, I figured when blizzard said at blizzcon that marines are overtuned in the early game that people would begin to start using them en masse. It's not really surprising. As a 2500 Z (I stopped laddering 2 weeks ago) its really frustrating when people keep saying 'just go one base' or "learn to prepare for it" because in all honesty even if you see it coming, the terran can choose not to attack and just CC and expand behind a bunker. What do you do with the 24 lings you made now lol? Btw I have been experimenting with my practice partners going 14gas/14pool and the problem with this is that they terran can actually do a slow bunker push as you lack the zerglings early to really defend against it. I"m talking about a bunker to the far side of your natural to deny a natural and then continuously pushing to your ramp with it while blocking off their own base. Hear hear! A well constructed point that explains exactly why 14 hatch is needed against 2rax pressure. Complete with detailed experience mixed in explaining why you hatch first versus this exact build. These are the kind of posts that are needed in strategy threads and across teamliquid. No mindlessly copying pro's, just straight up honest experience explained and laid out on a silver plate for us to read. I want to thank you for posting this and I feel we need to encourage people to post like this more. | ||
palookieblue
Australia326 Posts
Those who have been chucking ad hominems at him like children should be the ones saying sorry. It's a huge competition, you play to win. Why the fuck would he not play to his strengths, and avoid those of his opponent? It would be stupid NOT to do so. If I, a horrible player, had to play Nestea with 25K on the line, you can bet your jewels that I would be practicing some ridiculous, perfectly-timed 1-base play/ cheese because I know that every second the game goes on, my chances of winning decrease exponentially. Of course Rain is a damn good player in his own right, but the point still stands: people are attacking him for playing logically, and playing smart. The game is still young, and Blizzard aren't going to make ridiculously huge changes when things have still yet to be explored/discovered. 'Interesting' is subjective, anyway. I'd much rather see a tense short game than a 40-minute macro game. | ||
darmousseh
United States3437 Posts
On December 07 2010 08:14 ParasitJonte wrote: That's actually a very bad definition. Then again, Einstein wasn't particularly keen on quantum mechanics. I actually think it's a great definition. The world is completely deterministic and so is sc2 to an extent. In a deterministic world, it is insane to expect different results from the same state. | ||
Severedevil
United States4798 Posts
- 11 Overpool. Fast queen --> very high larva count, early pool --> early opportunity to make lings. Make a couple, check your opponent out, and go from there. Your inject will be quick enough to combat a rush if he performs one, so you don't need to go all-out zergling from the get-go. - Zergling presence + runby If Terran moves out with everything, you can move in with 4 Zerglings --> no mining (even with 'OP' mules) and no more unit production until he comes back home. Now that Terran's all-in, you just have to defend. (Hell, you don't even need to protect your natural, because it's not worthwhile for Terran to march all his SCVs across the map just to kill one hatchery and go home.) - Don't plant your hatchery on the path between the Terran and Zerg bases He attacks your main? You have Zerglings streaming from your second hatch to counter or flank. He attack your other base? You have Zerglings streaming from your main hatch to counter or flank. You can force the Terran out of position relative to one of your two hatcheries if he wants to move out. On December 07 2010 07:56 Angelbelow wrote: Youre trying to be objective. That is a good thing, but in this situation I dont think youre being objective. Do you not think its possible that Idra and Ret practiced with pool first? They cant be that stupid can they? For them to proclaim that "strategy X" is the best way we found, do you assume that thats the only thing they tried? I'm willing to bet that they tried a bunch of variations before coming to a conclusion. As far as seeing a different opener vs a 2-rax, maybe we don't see it because all the zergs feel as if hatch first truly is better. No, I do not believe that Idra/Ret have adequately practiced pool-first openers such as 11 overpool. In fact, from Ret's assertion that the first injection arrives too late to fight the first push, I'm led to believe he's doing 14+ pool builds, which exchange later injection and lings for more cash to invest in a faster second hatchery or gas. If Idra, Ret, or other pro zergs that complain of 2-Rax openings have practiced at least a few dozen matches of 11 overpool vs. 2 rax, I entreat them to share. On December 07 2010 07:47 Airfan wrote: I don't mind cheese at all. 6pool here, proxy gates there, it keeps players on their toes, makes them scout early and enables them to play mind games. But seriously, if 2 rax is going to become/stay as the new standard like 5 rax reaper was some time ago, there is something obviously broken in the matchup. Why? 2 Rax OC is a reasonable balance of aggression and economy. You get a solid early unit count without over-committing, at the expense of delaying tech/expansion by a minute or so. Please do! And for probes. The way workers fight nowadays makes me a sad panda. | ||
Nobu
Spain550 Posts
On December 07 2010 07:51 koolaid1990 wrote: rofl at all these noobs. pool first is much better than 14 hatch. You have enough drones/lings to live enough to get speedlings. Out of 15 zvt games, 9 terrans did a marine push rush on me, i went pool first, and won all. I always go pool first and have never lost against a marine/scv all in or a marine push in general. The trick is to take out around 4 lings by the time he comes with 1 marine, and dont let the scvs block your ramp, which is really ez prevent. And if he does an scv/marine all in to your 1 base, do what fruitdealer did. Move all your drones to the far end, trap the marines from microing more to the back, and take out the marines with your drones and kill the scvs with your front lings. Watch Fruitdealer vs bitbitprime and ull c what i mean. This made my day, I'm going to sleep just as i stop laughing so hard. Please, stop saying 14 hatch is greedy, economical all-in, or whatever you want, i dont think nestea is throwing out the chance of winning a lot more money just because he likes his 14 hatch (And before someone says again that he is too greedy, Idra and ret, THE BEST NON KOREAN ZERGS, have been studying 2raxx along with haypro and have got to the conclusion that 14 hatch is the best way to stop it without loosing the eco game right after that, but hey maybe your pool first build is way better than anything they have tried, you have an impressive 9/15 in ZvT) | ||
itsMAHVELbaybee
292 Posts
Although its fun to go watch great players like Jys and MakaPrime get trampled by Zerg late game despite efforts of playing a great overall game. Seriously game 2 of Maka vs NesTea wanted to make me puke. Like any player wants to go through a grueling 30 minute game to get trampled by the late game, with no obvious answer other than, "build more shit than the zerg." | ||
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