illusion vs alicia WCS
Early->Mid Game TvP Needs to Be Addressed - Page 16
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MyNameisYueY
United States13 Posts
illusion vs alicia WCS | ||
Belha
Italy2850 Posts
Flash vs Parting case: In game 2, Flash misses the double forge. He did not scan those at all. That, plus twilight, plus templar archieves mean a timing, and Flash went for a 3rd. That kind of mistake if lethal in any match up at that level. Also, if you ask my oppinion, Flash (prolly the best bw player ever) is not as strong player in Sc2 right now as Parting (or Bogus). About proxie oracles: Proxy oracles are both strong vs careless or greedy play (like fast cc; example of non careless play is flash marine positioning in game 1 vs parting), and VERY all-inish. If the T scout it and respond accordingly and play safe, is ahead. Not like Polt. About Msc: Do any of you remember like half of the loses of pro Protoss in WoL history? Yeah, 1 bases all ins, run by, 2 raxes, pushing and sudently getting droped so pros got eventually forced to stay in base for ever, so every P attack become an all-in. Pressure from P was almost non existant. Msc is the best adition to P, because it allows back and forth, and P is no longer the weak race to very early rushes. This is not WoL anymore, P can be proactive too. Check both Life vs Parting games in the 2nd series. Both were amazing, allowed to Parting to show a magnificent defense vs pure ling all-ins. Msc allowed that. PvZ: Msc core is prolly the big fix to the boring fest of mass FFE vs 3 hatch. Ofc the op is T so he prolly never suffered how depresing was PvZ. About the whole "Early->Mid Game TvP Needs to Be Addressed" Do not agree at all. P can go for an early attack or play defensive+macro. For the early attacks we have: - Msc+gate poke (easier to defend unless very greedy play, in fact are designed to punish that) - Gate variations (4 gate, or nexus gate pressure). Both are easily scouteable and if it fails, the P is behind, so fair tradeoff. - Tech all-ins. Blink, dt or Oracle. Again, scouteable (double ga s+ no nexus, be ready). The strongest ofc is oracle since it do not have 3 years old so the proper play to play defense is not out there yet. From now, it demands very safe play. If it fails to do dmg, the T is ahead. The other choice is to go macro and def, and it demands very careful play (I don't remember the series, but in a korean PvT a few days ago, T went for mine drops into CC, the P took 1 extra sec to move their probes which lead into a 14 probes lost. I'm pretty sure oracles can't do that), with units on both the nat and main (same as oracle attacks), units that are very short in numbers if you wanna tech (and as a P, you have to), so Msc presence is a must. Also, it is fair to say that in Hots compared to WoL, P is not longer blind, P can go for a fast sentry to hallu asap (weak to defend agression tho) or send msc to the T base (can be dangerous since is slower than marines and if you recall, you lost ur nexus cannon). Now, T pov. You can play agro into CC or fast CC. I'm not going into details since I'm not a T player (P): - Proxy factory. If it fails to do dmg, is pretty all inish. - Hellion/Marauder/marine/mine stuff frontal push. Designed to punish greedy play and take the expansion. The key is to force the cannon and go again. No dmg done, ur really behind. - Drop variations. Frontal+main drop, mine, hellbats, marines. Best option, could take 10+ probes easily. I say this is the "oracle" equivalent for T. No dmg done, you're behind. Going for fast CC, demands good scout (reaper is the key here) and proper response and marine positioning. To scout, reaper + scan do the trick very efficiently. As a final note, I want to say that past the 8min, T have very good game with speedvacs, either going hellbats (battle mode drops are really strong) or mm. Also the T usually get the faster 3rd, which means better eco (thx to mules), while pressing at the same time (ofc this is pretty multitask, skill, dependant, same goes for protoss defending those multipronged posibilities). As a tradeoff, the P usually take the upgrade lead (thx to chrono). TLDR: Please read the post. The match up is pretty balanced. Imho this is an overreaction for Flash result vs Parting, and I'm pretty convinced he got slighty outplayed. Both sides in the match up can play agresively, defensive, or greedy. And both can punish their counterpart. | ||
ImperialFist
790 Posts
On May 04 2013 06:05 dreamsmasher wrote: pretty sure terran is more powerful in the late late game, i think you mean protoss is more powerful when armies are approaching max the first time around. yeah I'm talking about when toss hits their 3-3- timing with collosi-templar- mass zealot and 20 gates late, late game is terran favored when they have 30 ghost - 25 vikings with some marauder support and mass orbital also: stalkers suck, these timings should be hit with a massive number of storms available. Spend the gas on templars, dont get any stalkers for the vikings, storm is the best anti-viking. | ||
DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
On May 04 2013 06:25 Belha wrote: Both sides in the match up can play agresively, defensive, or greedy. And both can punish their counterpart. If you're suggesting that Terran has near anywhere as close to as many all-ins or punishment options as Protoss then you're simply biased as you only play Protoss. Equal aggressive options are just not there, and that's pretty important in regards to a matchup with a race like Protoss that becomes near unbeatable late game. | ||
TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On May 04 2013 06:25 Belha wrote: - Proxy factory. If it fails to do dmg, is pretty all inish. Auto-loses to Stargate (proxied or not), i. e. completely coinflippy. - Hellion/Marauder/marine/mine stuff frontal push. Designed to punish greedy play and take the expansion. The key is to force the cannon and go again. No dmg done, ur really behind. Can't punish anything since Photon Overcharge stalls for 1 minut, after which Protoss will easily have what it takes to defend this. - Drop variations. Frontal+main drop, mine, hellbats, marines. Best option, could take 10+ probes easily. I say this is the "oracle" equivalent for T. No dmg done, you're behind. Blocked by detection + units in mineral line + PO. Some pressure openings into expand exist, but they're rare since Protoss has all tools to scout them (this is the main difference with WoL, in which Protoss scouting was much weaker), defend without any loss and thus remain ahead. At high/pro level fast expands are the rule. | ||
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On May 04 2013 06:22 Swift118 wrote: LoL @ butthurt scrub tosses in this thread basically. What filter writes has substance unlike your little agendas. He is pointing out an inconsistency that he thinks is there and has delivered his points clearly and has expressed himself well. Would be interesting to hear some pro opinions on this. I do think personally that Terran still has early aggression options, mostly involving window mines, but certainly Toss has an array of aggressive builds/all ins to choose from that are viable judging from pro games. It does seem kinda off currently but I am willing to accept that I may be over looking some things and that the game is still quite new and the TvP early game has certainly seen a fair amount of change from WoL > HotS. Like Grubby from page three? Or does he not count because he is protoss? | ||
Swift118
United Kingdom335 Posts
On May 04 2013 06:35 Plansix wrote: Like Grubby from page three? Or does he not count because he is protoss? Of course he counts! Hopefully more will come into to share their opinions. Point being I think Filter came up with a decent thread and made some valid points that does not deserve some of the butthurt responses he got. | ||
Creem
Sweden254 Posts
Right now toss has uncountable different timings to chose from due to the fact that they can play a pylon anywhere on the map and instantly draw on the resources from nearly every single production facility safely positioned in their base. If you want to negate Defender's Advantage it's supposed to come at a cost, losing a poorly placed proxy pylon is not enough. | ||
Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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Belha
Italy2850 Posts
On May 04 2013 06:33 TheDwf wrote: Auto-loses to Stargate (proxied or not), i. e. completely coinflippy. Can't punish anything since Photon Overcharge stalls for 1 minut, after which Protoss will easily have what it takes to defend this. Blocked by detection + units in mineral line + PO. Some pressure openings into expand exist, but they're rare since Protoss has all tools to scout them (this is the main difference with WoL, in which Protoss scouting was much weaker), defend without any loss and thus remain ahead. At high/pro level fast expands are the rule. Ofc all can be blocked. Dts are coinflippy as fuck for example. That's not the point at all. You are just fallaciously derrailing the idea of the post. It may work for some people but is as cheap as you can get for any smart person. Also, a drop blocked simply with "detection + units in mineral line + PO"...that kind of statement is exactly what i meant with minimizing a lot of points of the builds. Is sad to write a wall of text arguing and find such limited kind of response, but i guess I'm the silly in the end. | ||
TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On May 04 2013 06:46 Emzeeshady wrote: You sound pretty biased yourself buddy. Protoss is in no way near unbeatable late game. Filter even said himself despite being a Terran player that Terran has the upper edge late game. ... and he's completely wrong. | ||
Firlefanz
Germany245 Posts
I like the OPs post and the discussion, though. | ||
Prog455
Denmark970 Posts
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Wingblade
United States1806 Posts
Thorzain versus Titan game 3 from their first best of 3 in WCS EU. Titan, ahead 40 supply, maxed with colossi/storm and good upgrades attacks Thorzains third base, gets melted by EMPs, Thorzain counters and wins. | ||
WhiteSatin
United States308 Posts
TvP is a match-up where usually in the early to mid-game T had a slight advantage (10 min push with MMM) and after that it balances out and eventually goes into P favor for late game. But I agree with many of the points that the OP makes - now this balance is completely lost because of these changes. Not sure how it could be fixed, seems an hard task | ||
Baum
Germany1010 Posts
On May 04 2013 06:25 MyNameisYueY wrote: I am really surprised nobody has referenced this game yet. I feel this is a very good way to enter the mid game as terran and still be at the very least on equal footing with protoss without doing something gimmicky. illusion vs alicia WCS Are you kidding? This is the definition of a 2 base all in. Alicia had 2-2 on the way while Illusion was only building his engineering bay. Also this build does not solve the problem of how to be safe against early cheese in fact this build would lose against every possible one base build if executed like this. On May 04 2013 06:58 Wingblade wrote: Thorzain versus Titan game 3 from their first best of 3 in WCS EU. Titan, ahead 40 supply, maxed with colossi/storm and good upgrades attacks Thorzains third base, gets melted by EMPs, Thorzain counters and wins. Titan didn't have a lot of templars neither with his main army nor at home also he attacked at a very very bad position funneling his whole army into a huge clump which was very easy to EMP when he had no reason to commit to an attack. Additionally a lot of his supply was devoted to Zealots which were harrasing Thorzain's natural and main base and even after he lost the fight at the third he didn't realize that he was in trouble and kept warping in Zealots in the main which were dying for free so Titan threw away a huge lead which was only related to very poor play and had nothing to do with either race being at an advantage at that stage of the game. | ||
Wingblade
United States1806 Posts
On May 04 2013 06:56 Prog455 wrote: What annoys me the most is that a unit like DT is supposed to be high risk/high reward. Right now it is more like low risk into potential build order win. If Terran tries to do some kind of proxy or gimmicky attack and is scouted, Terran is playing from behind. At this point i feel that building a merely building a Dark Shrine will put you ahead because Terran has to put so many minerals into defending DTs. ...1 turret at the front of the base to defend a 150/150 building, not to mention the actual DTs that are built is not "a lot of minerals". | ||
TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On May 04 2013 06:58 Wingblade wrote: Thorzain versus Titan game 3 from their first best of 3 in WCS EU. Titan, ahead 40 supply, maxed with colossi/storm and good upgrades attacks Thorzains third base, gets melted by EMPs, Thorzain counters and wins. It was not a case of lategame at all (from memory there was no fourth, at least for ThorZaIN, and he was down to 56 SCVs so his economy wasn't sufficient to enter a lategame scenario anyway), and just because TitaN's horrible charge into a bio concave failed badly doesn't mean anything for lategame TvP. | ||
Prog455
Denmark970 Posts
On May 04 2013 07:00 Wingblade wrote: ...1 turret at the front of the base to defend a 150/150 building, not to mention the actual DTs that are built is not "a lot of minerals". You need a turret in every base if he has warp prism. Considering how mineral heavy anything Terran is 350 minerals is a lot. And even if DTs does no damage to workers they might still force a couple of scans if they start killing off buildings. Furthermore it is not like DTs are useless even when well defended. They can still force scans everytime you want to attack. | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
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