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On August 20 2015 07:02 Vindicare605 wrote: You want an explicit handicap? Fine you got it. You start with one less worker than your opponent does. Problem solved.
You have 11 workers and 1 scout. Scout, react, play. There's no issue here. You really like responding to positions no one is taking and then declaring victory. I didn't say there should be an explicit handicap, I said that as long as there's going to be an explicit handicap, why choose this weird early game information one?
There are two cases: either we decide that random players should be compensated for their knowledge of other matchups with a handicap, or they shouldn't. If they shouldn't, we should remove random advantage and let everyone see each other's races at the beginning. If they should, why don't we have a discussion about what that handicap should be? The current system doesn't do that job very well either – if a random player hits a TvZ and the zerg just opens hatch first like they would have anyway, the random player has been denied his rightful handicap! Now he's forced to play out the game like he had picked Terran at the outset, when he should have started with a nice advantage for being good at PvP, too!
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On August 20 2015 07:08 Brutaxilos wrote: Random player here. I would just like to say that if my race was revealed on the loading screen, I wouldn't really mind. The only reason I don't just role a dice is because for some reason I still want to get random achievement and want the credit of being a random player. That being said, I do firmly believe that a Random player will not beat a non-Random player of equal skill. I feel that I am significantly punished by the complexity of 9 matchups and rely much more on my mechanics than the understanding of the current meta-game. I believe that playing Random is about a nerf of about one League. (aka, if a Random player were to pick a single race, he would probably be a League higher than he is now).
My 2 cents.
See my experience playing Random taught me something different.
I do better as Random in about 5 match ups than I do queueing up as single race for one simple reason. People don't do blind bullshit cheeses to me as often because they don't know which one to do.
I rarely cheese when I play Starcraft. So the random advantage to me doesn't really help me as much as it does for others, but what it does do is deny my opponent a lot of opportunities to blind cheese me, which I like a lot.
So, displaying my race does matter to me. The punishment I get for playing Random is that I get all kinds of fun shit like 9 ZvZs in a row (no kidding, this happened to me once, I broke a keyboard over it.) that simply queuing as Terran (my best race) doesn't allow. So I like to keep my race hidden because I like that comfort of knowing a lot of blind bullshit won't happen to me.
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On August 20 2015 07:16 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2015 07:02 Vindicare605 wrote: You want an explicit handicap? Fine you got it. You start with one less worker than your opponent does. Problem solved.
You have 11 workers and 1 scout. Scout, react, play. There's no issue here. You really like responding to positions no one is taking and then declaring victory. I didn't say there should be an explicit handicap, I said that as long as there's going to be an explicit handicap, why choose this weird early game information one? There are two cases: either we decide that random players should be compensated for their knowledge of other matchups with a handicap, or they shouldn't. If they shouldn't, we should remove random advantage and let everyone see each other's races at the beginning. If they should, why don't we have a discussion about what that handicap should be? The current system doesn't do that job very well either – if a random player hits a TvZ and the zerg just opens hatch first like they would have anyway, the random player has been denied his rightful handicap! Now he's forced to play out the game like he had picked Terran at the outset, when he should have started with a nice advantage for being good at PvP, too!
There's a third solution. Leave it alone because it's fine the way it is.
You haven't convinced me that there's even a problem with the way Random works right now. You just convinced me that YOU have a problem with it.
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On August 20 2015 07:16 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2015 07:08 Brutaxilos wrote: Random player here. I would just like to say that if my race was revealed on the loading screen, I wouldn't really mind. The only reason I don't just role a dice is because for some reason I still want to get random achievement and want the credit of being a random player. That being said, I do firmly believe that a Random player will not beat a non-Random player of equal skill. I feel that I am significantly punished by the complexity of 9 matchups and rely much more on my mechanics than the understanding of the current meta-game. I believe that playing Random is about a nerf of about one League. (aka, if a Random player were to pick a single race, he would probably be a League higher than he is now).
My 2 cents. See my experience playing Random taught me something different. I do better as Random in about 5 match ups than I do queueing up as single race for one simple reason. People don't do blind bullshit cheeses to me as often because they don't know which one to do. I rarely cheese when I play Starcraft. So the random advantage to me doesn't really help me as much as it does for others, but what it does do is deny my opponent a lot of opportunities to blind cheese me, which I like a lot. So, displaying my race does matter to me. The punishment I get for playing Random is that I get all kinds of fun shit like 9 ZvZs in a row (no kidding, this happened to me once, I broke a keyboard over it.) that simply queuing as Terran (my best race) doesn't allow. So I like to keep my race hidden because I like that comfort of knowing a lot of blind bullshit won't happen to me. Hold on – you just got on your high horse about how we're just whining that we can't beat the cheeses random players throw at us and we need to scout and learn to react – and now you admit that you play random just to avoid having to learn to scout and beat early cheese?
Tell me, what's your trick for coping with cognitive dissonance? Do you do yoga or something? Because it sounds stressful to me.
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On August 20 2015 07:20 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2015 07:16 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 20 2015 07:08 Brutaxilos wrote: Random player here. I would just like to say that if my race was revealed on the loading screen, I wouldn't really mind. The only reason I don't just role a dice is because for some reason I still want to get random achievement and want the credit of being a random player. That being said, I do firmly believe that a Random player will not beat a non-Random player of equal skill. I feel that I am significantly punished by the complexity of 9 matchups and rely much more on my mechanics than the understanding of the current meta-game. I believe that playing Random is about a nerf of about one League. (aka, if a Random player were to pick a single race, he would probably be a League higher than he is now).
My 2 cents. See my experience playing Random taught me something different. I do better as Random in about 5 match ups than I do queueing up as single race for one simple reason. People don't do blind bullshit cheeses to me as often because they don't know which one to do. I rarely cheese when I play Starcraft. So the random advantage to me doesn't really help me as much as it does for others, but what it does do is deny my opponent a lot of opportunities to blind cheese me, which I like a lot. So, displaying my race does matter to me. The punishment I get for playing Random is that I get all kinds of fun shit like 9 ZvZs in a row (no kidding, this happened to me once, I broke a keyboard over it.) that simply queuing as Terran (my best race) doesn't allow. So I like to keep my race hidden because I like that comfort of knowing a lot of blind bullshit won't happen to me. Hold on – you just got on your high horse about how we're just whining that we can't beat the cheeses random players throw at us and we need to scout and learn to react – and now you admit that you play random just to avoid having to learn to scout and beat early cheese? Tell me, what's your trick for coping with cognitive dissonance? Do you do yoga or something? Because it sounds stressful to me.
I'm not saying I can't do it. I'm just saying I don't like to do it.
Playing Random forces my opponent to play a macro game with me (in non-mirror match ups anyway). I'm playing into HIS advantage when I do that since like we've already discussed he has more experience in the match up than I do.
I'm handicapping myself as a trade off of forcing a macro game. That's how I like to play. That's why I play Random.
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On August 20 2015 07:16 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2015 07:08 Brutaxilos wrote: Random player here. I would just like to say that if my race was revealed on the loading screen, I wouldn't really mind. The only reason I don't just role a dice is because for some reason I still want to get random achievement and want the credit of being a random player. That being said, I do firmly believe that a Random player will not beat a non-Random player of equal skill. I feel that I am significantly punished by the complexity of 9 matchups and rely much more on my mechanics than the understanding of the current meta-game. I believe that playing Random is about a nerf of about one League. (aka, if a Random player were to pick a single race, he would probably be a League higher than he is now).
My 2 cents. See my experience playing Random taught me something different. I do better as Random in about 5 match ups than I do queueing up as single race for one simple reason. People don't do blind bullshit cheeses to me as often because they don't know which one to do. I rarely cheese when I play Starcraft. So the random advantage to me doesn't really help me as much as it does for others, but what it does do is deny my opponent a lot of opportunities to blind cheese me, which I like a lot. So, displaying my race does matter to me. The punishment I get for playing Random is that I get all kinds of fun shit like 9 ZvZs in a row (no kidding, this happened to me once, I broke a keyboard over it.) that simply queuing as Terran (my best race) doesn't allow. So I like to keep my race hidden because I like that comfort of knowing a lot of blind bullshit won't happen to me.
I actually feel like I get cheesed when playing Random more often than when I pick a race. When the opponent knows my race, the games tend to become macro games. But when I play Random, opponents assume I'm going to be doing sneaky shit and many times decide to cheese me first. And yes, I've gotten those 9 ZvZs in a row before too. Anyways, I guess I don't mind whatever Blizzard ends up deciding upon, but I just want to stress that playing Random is definitely not the easier route to take. (Just look at how many professional Randoms there are).
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Canada13372 Posts
I personally just don't enjoy the fact that on four player maps, I need to try and play some build that is halfway decent vs all 3 races up until I scout their race. This can put me really behind vs Zerg or T, or put me in a really funny spot vs P.
I play toss, and yes, I do scout as soon as the game starts vs a random player. On 4 p maps, the final position scout is stupid vs random and just feels frustrating to be on the non random end. I know random players need to learn more matchups, but its not about that. Its about how it feels to scout last and see that oh, I should have not taken my second gas or gotten that blind stargate vs Zerg who has a bunch of drones and saw my stargate. Great.
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On August 20 2015 07:23 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2015 07:20 ChristianS wrote:On August 20 2015 07:16 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 20 2015 07:08 Brutaxilos wrote: Random player here. I would just like to say that if my race was revealed on the loading screen, I wouldn't really mind. The only reason I don't just role a dice is because for some reason I still want to get random achievement and want the credit of being a random player. That being said, I do firmly believe that a Random player will not beat a non-Random player of equal skill. I feel that I am significantly punished by the complexity of 9 matchups and rely much more on my mechanics than the understanding of the current meta-game. I believe that playing Random is about a nerf of about one League. (aka, if a Random player were to pick a single race, he would probably be a League higher than he is now).
My 2 cents. See my experience playing Random taught me something different. I do better as Random in about 5 match ups than I do queueing up as single race for one simple reason. People don't do blind bullshit cheeses to me as often because they don't know which one to do. I rarely cheese when I play Starcraft. So the random advantage to me doesn't really help me as much as it does for others, but what it does do is deny my opponent a lot of opportunities to blind cheese me, which I like a lot. So, displaying my race does matter to me. The punishment I get for playing Random is that I get all kinds of fun shit like 9 ZvZs in a row (no kidding, this happened to me once, I broke a keyboard over it.) that simply queuing as Terran (my best race) doesn't allow. So I like to keep my race hidden because I like that comfort of knowing a lot of blind bullshit won't happen to me. Hold on – you just got on your high horse about how we're just whining that we can't beat the cheeses random players throw at us and we need to scout and learn to react – and now you admit that you play random just to avoid having to learn to scout and beat early cheese? Tell me, what's your trick for coping with cognitive dissonance? Do you do yoga or something? Because it sounds stressful to me. I'm not saying I can't do it. I'm just saying I don't like to do it. Playing Random forces my opponent to play a macro game with me (in non-mirror match ups anyway). I'm playing into HIS advantage when I do that since like we've already discussed he has more experience in the match up than I do. I'm handicapping myself as a trade off of forcing a macro game. That's how I like to play. But you started by saying you prefer random because you do better at it than if you just queued as whatever race, so it is that you can't hold the cheeses. So rather than correct the errors in your play that cause you to lose to these cheeses, you use random as a crutch to help you survive to late game.
You keep asking what the problem with the current system is: it's exactly what you're talking about. It removes the strategy from the early game and lets people get away with sloppy play.
Edit: To Brutaxilos' point, I did not mean to imply that playing random is easier in general. Random players often get hate for a system they didn't create, and I don't mean to encourage that. If you want to learn all nine matchups that's great, it's an impressive undertaking and you deserve kudos. I don't think you deserve a handicap to reward you for your undertaking, though.
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On August 20 2015 06:41 Vindicare605 wrote: You have 12 workers to start with. Just sacrifice one to find out what race you're up against as soon as the game starts. Honestly the random advantage is diminished in LoTV just due to the fact you start with so many workers to scout with. It's not as crippling to a build order to lose one of 12 workers as it is to lose 1 of 6.
There's no excuse to die to those kinds of all ins. You have scouts, use them. All of this Random advantage bullshit is from people that simply don't like the fact that they have to scout before starting their own build order. Just play safe. If you can't win a particular match up against someone with less experience at it than you (Assuming equal skill the Random player will always have played whatever match up it is less than you have) while playing safe then that's your own fault.
There doesn't need to be any kind of punishment towards Random players. It's already punishing enough trying to keep up with 9 different metagames.
I'll admit that as a protoss I have a significant bias against random players. To put it simply, I really dislike them. Whenever I face a random player on ladder, I try harder and actually worker stack to get that mineral boost and play as hard as I can.
I do this because there exist a real disadvantage vs random players on 4 player maps. If you get last scout, (and its not really a matter of if but when) you can easily lose to unscouted cheese, or will end up really far behind if you open gate expand vs a zerg or terran who ends up going expansion first. The worst part is that your opponent can be protoss; which simply elimates a fast expand build from your arsenal, if you want to play safe.
This is because you simply cannot safely expand early game in the PvP matchup.
On 4 player maps, not only do you on average lose more minerals scouting (because the map is larger) you do not get consistent scouting out of it. At least vs other races if you get last scout you can narrow down your play and not end up super behind because the meta games of each matchup has been significantly developed.
In LoTv, random either needs to show your opponent what race they get; or 4 player maps need to be removed.
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yea you wait.. all the tournaments will be won by random players because of the early game advantage they get
then reality will set it... and no random player will ever win any tournament or thing of any significance ever
not because the advantage they get is strictly hypothetical.. but because no pro's want to expose how easy it is and fear becoming the next bonjwa in the one truly OP race.. raaannndddooommmmmm
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First of all, I think we need to get rid of some misconceptions.
Argument: Random player is worse than single race player because random player has to learn 6 match ups and single race player has to learn 3.
I really think that this is false because of the way matchmaking works: a Silver league random player vs a Silver league zerg player would be of equal skill.. thats why the random player is in silver league (thats why they have the same MMR).
Granted if we were talking about time, it would be easier to reach silver league in a shorter amount of time with 1 race, vs reaching silver league playing random. But when you hit find match, playing against a random player does not mean that they are automatically worse, they are likely the same skill.. thats why the matchmaking put you together.
Argument: Random players are worse in late game scenarios.
This is also false. A silver league zerg could 6 pool every game. The other silver league random player might play macro every game. While both player's average skill across all games played is equal to silver, the random player may be better in the late game.
In the end: Playing random gives you an information advantage. There should be no debate about this. I don't think its right for this information advantage to be percieved as a 'reward' for learning more match ups. The best solution in achieving 'balance' or removing variance is simply to have the race of the random player displayed in the loading screen.
However, if we talk about 'fun'... there are those who play random because they enjoy all the matchups or playing different races. Many random players (like myself) wouldn't mind if the race was displayed. However, there ARE players who like having that small advantage. Or there are also players who simply find it more fun to have that information hidden from their opponent.
In that case... perhaps the next best solution to achieve balance in terms of advantages would be: If you play random, while your race is hidden from your opponent, your opponent's race is also hidden from you.
With this solution, I'm sure the single race players would not complain when matched against a random player because both sides have to scout/both sides get no information advantage.
TLDR: Random gives the random player (a very small) information (and build order) advantage Solution: Achieve fairness by displaying the random player's race in loading screen (both sides have race information) Alternate solution: Achieve fairness by masking the single race player's race in loading screen so both sides don't know (both sides do not have race information).
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On August 20 2015 07:46 joshie0808 wrote:
Alternate solution: Achieve fairness by masking the single race player's race in loading screen so both sides don't know (both sides do not have race information).
This is a very good solution imo, or, at least a solution I'd like to try.
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I don't really understand the concern here, to be honest. In LotV, you start with 12 workers. What keeps you from scouting immediately with one of your starting workers? This means you can send a scout literally before any strategic decision is made, before the first tech building or anything is started. If you are Protoss, for example, you can send a scout (slightly) before even the first Pylon is made. Or do you guys scout before you build your Pylon in PvR in HotS? I don't think so. Your scout may be a bit faster relative to the tech than in HotS, and you even sacrifice less economy because the economy is slightly ahead relative to tech in LotV early game.
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On August 20 2015 07:51 Sholip wrote: I don't really understand the concern here, to be honest. In LotV, you start with 12 workers. What keeps you from scouting immediately with one of your starting workers? This means you can send a scout literally before any strategic decision is made, before the first tech building or anything is started. If you are Protoss, for example, you can send a scout (slightly) before even the first Pylon is made. Or do you guys scout before you build your Pylon in PvR in HotS? I don't think so. Your scout may be a bit faster relative to the tech than in HotS, and you even sacrifice less economy because the economy is slightly ahead relative to tech in LotV early game.
I think from a 'practical' or significance point of view... its hard to argue that playing against random causes you to lose against much worse players. Or that there is a huge advantage (thats why no pros with any results play random). However, esp in the most extreme cases (playing PvP on a 4 player map where you end out scouting the last position), it really does suck haha.
I believe the OP wants to address the 'principle' that sc should be a fair game. And in theory, if 100% equal skill, a random player would win against a non-random because (they are the same skill, and the random player started with a small advantage).
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Hi, I play only random.
For all the reasons displayed I would rather the uniqueness of the random to remain.
Yes, race pickers have to make build orders specific to playing versus randoms, it is only fair that this not change.
On the other end, random players like to be known as random, mostly nothing more.
I think the current way is the best: - the random player can tell his opponent his race.. that means a lot and makes a lot of things possible (my favorite is typing "mirror") - some opponents ask and you can answer.. or not
- everyone scouts more
glhf tldr: if you put it to a vote, I vote NO, leave it as is.
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I agree the random advantage should be dropped, although I like that players can show off if they play random with portraits.
Just put Random - Zerg on the load screen or something.
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Russian Federation80 Posts
This thread is so rich.
On August 20 2015 06:22 ChristianS wrote: But the point is to reward skilled play. A skilled TvT player should beat a less skilled TvT player a majority of the time. If that is not the case, the matchup is imbalanced.
Yaha, TvT is imbalanced, got your point.
Your argument here is "oh, but it should be imbalanced in his favor, because his other matchups are stronger." He didn't say that. The point is not that randoms other match ups might be stronger or weaker, but the need to be good in all of them. Being good enough in all of them to show good results is enough of skill demonstration.
It's also been mentioned here: just scout with a starting worker. The impact of random play contrairily should be smaller that in hots simply because of 12 worker start, as you won't sacrifice much by sending starting worker. On most maps you would find the opponent by the time your first supply/ovie/pylon is finished or around it. Can't see anything bad about it.
Your reference to PvT 8 adapts + warp prism rush makes zero sense in relation to this topic. Your opponent at very least built: pylon, gateway, cybercore (+ warp gate research), robotics and warp prism for it, and you ask what if Terran does not even know that their opponent is P? Let alone current strength of this build, if by the time when your opponent has this much stuff you didn't scout him you would lose horribly against multitude of builds in HoTS too.
All in all, random is the hardest to play as it was mentioned. If you don't trust people, check out the stats (seen many random players among top?). And if you believe that anything will change in LoTV, I suggest you to wait with the conclusions, as statistics very likely won't be any better for random with generally very early scouts.
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On August 20 2015 07:30 ZeromuS wrote: I personally just don't enjoy the fact that on four player maps, I need to try and play some build that is halfway decent vs all 3 races up until I scout their race. This can put me really behind vs Zerg or T, or put me in a really funny spot vs P.
I play toss, and yes, I do scout as soon as the game starts vs a random player. On 4 p maps, the final position scout is stupid vs random and just feels frustrating to be on the non random end. I know random players need to learn more matchups, but its not about that. Its about how it feels to scout last and see that oh, I should have not taken my second gas or gotten that blind stargate vs Zerg who has a bunch of drones and saw my stargate. Great. I agree, scouting last sucks so hard, while f.e. the opponent is droning non stop. Also preparing for a cheese is different vs some races, so the one who doesnt play random is always behind.
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Russian Federation80 Posts
On August 20 2015 07:30 ZeromuS wrote: I play toss, and yes, I do scout as soon as the game starts vs a random player. On 4 p maps, the final position scout is stupid vs random and just feels frustrating to be on the non random end.
This is actually a reasonable point. I think it's basically the only case when random gains significant advantage for being... well... random. Although you must admit that in all other cases (2 player maps, first scout on 4p maps, and non-P opponents) put randoms into disadvantage.
Also this
On August 20 2015 07:51 Sholip wrote: I don't really understand the concern here, to be honest. In LotV, you start with 12 workers. What keeps you from scouting immediately with one of your starting workers? This means you can send a scout literally before any strategic decision is made, before the first tech building or anything is started. If you are Protoss, for example, you can send a scout (slightly) before even the first Pylon is made. Or do you guys scout before you build your Pylon in PvR in HotS? I don't think so. Your scout may be a bit faster relative to the tech than in HotS, and you even sacrifice less economy because the economy is slightly ahead relative to tech in LotV early game.
+1. Literally when you send a starting worker in LoTV you (1 out of 12 workers) you send it a bit before the first supply building. To achieve the same mining efficiency loss in HoTS (1 out of 12 workers) it usually means you would send the scout right before or even after the first tech building is started.
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I play random a lot, really wouldn't care if they showed my race. Its definitely harder then playing one race, can't touch muscle memory.
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