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On August 20 2015 17:19 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2015 17:00 ChristianS wrote:On August 20 2015 16:45 Pursuit_ wrote:On August 20 2015 16:41 ChristianS wrote:On August 20 2015 16:34 MoreFaSho wrote: You claim that a player playing random has some kind of advantage yet 0 professional players who spend countless hours grinding out every improvement they can have decided to play random even though quite a few are more than proficient with the other races. I think this is relatively strong evidence against your claim. I claim that if a player were to queue as random and wind up in a TvT, he would have a better chance of winning than if he had queued as Terran and wound up in the same TvT. The situations are identical except that in the former case, his opponent has less information. That's the random advantage I'm talking about. Do you honestly believe that advantage doesn't exist? This is definitely an advantage that exists, the question is does it really make up for all of the downsides of playing random? Evidence seems to say not, otherwise people would be playing random at a competitive level. Okay well once it exists, there's a few questions. The first is whether it's strong enough to be worth the cost in time spent learning all the races. The answer seems to be no, particularly on the professional level where learning to play even one race sufficiently well takes almost more time than there is in the day. Maybe that will change when macro mechanics are removed, since that's a pretty large part of the investment in learning a new race, but for now the answer seems to be no. The question this thread is about, however, is whether that advantage should exist anyway. Even if it's not small enough to make it a smart strategy for most players, does it create unfair situations? Does it create fun gameplay? Is it in keeping with the principles that competitive Starcraft is built on? I argue that it is at its heart an unfair advantage, since one player starts the game with more information than the other. The gameplay it encourages is typically coin-flippy for the non-random player and sloppy play for the random player. And it seems like an important principle of Starcraft that both players should start on equal footing, which this system violates. Unfair advantage? No. Unfun? I think it's safe to say yes given how many people complain about it. There's no such thing as starting on equal footing. Maps will favor one race or position over another, players' experience and personal skill will be different, races will have different styles and strrengths based on the meta, some people play unorthodox strategies ect. Having all these different inequalities while still having a relatively balanced game it what makes it so fun. Giving random players a small advantage in information given the setbacks of playing random seems like an example of asymmetrical balance to me. Personally I think playing vs random is usually fun, because it forces me to play a more organic game rather than following my usual flowchart, and random players often do wonky / quirky things that force me to think and adapt on the fly. Map imbalance is a bad example because if there's an obvious map imbalance we generally do remove it – we try to minimize map imbalance just like we try to minimize racial imbalance. Positional imbalance is also generally considered a bad thing that should be removed. Players having different levels of skill has no bearing on starting with equal footing – equal footing just means you're given equally strong tools, it says nothing about how you use them.
For instance, Chess does not start on equal footing. White is stronger than black. Chess competition has to try to address this by having players trade off being white, but the game is at its heart imbalanced. This would be true even if I were to play as white against a chess grandmaster. He would beat me, but it would be in spite of starting off at a disadvantage from being black.
Starcraft is the only game I can think of that specifically gives a player an advantage for choosing random. Many fighting games have the option to choose random, but they don't give your character better stats because you random'ed into them instead of just picking them. It would seem silly for Mario Kart to make Toad move a little faster if you picked random and rolled Toad than if you had just chosen him. Why do we think random players deserve a handicap to compensate them for having to learn so many matchups in Starcraft? In Street FIghter you'd have to learn dozens of characters, whereas in Starcraft you only need to learn three races. Shouldn't Street Fighter implement some random advantage, then?
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If Random was unbalanced, one would think that many significant SC2 pros would be playing it. But in fact it appears that no thought at all went into this post, other than salt over losing to random players.
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Devils advocate here:
Isn't the difference between 2x proxy rax and cc first much larger than the difference between terran and protoss? None of them will be scouted early if you are unlucky on a 4 player map. I assume no one if arguing that the opening build order is displayed on the loading screen though. Why should random race be displayed, but not build order?
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On August 20 2015 16:15 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2015 05:17 Clonester wrote: The random player has to be able to play all races. The race-picker not. Thus the random player has to learn 9 matchups against 3. It is literaly the reason to pick random in tournaments to have this starting advantage. Most random players want to learn all races best possible and thus announce what race they have, but dedicated random players who will attend in the automated tournaments will not. They not only pick random to play 3 races but also to win. If you want to be shure, use one of the starting workers to scout. bullshit. The random player "has" to learn 9 different all-ins and execute them. he doesnt need to do jack besides that. in LotV a workerscout sometimes aint enough. a Random player will never play the real matchups either since hes forcing his opponent into suboptimal safer builds. Show nested quote +On August 20 2015 16:13 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On August 20 2015 14:46 Brutaxilos wrote:On August 20 2015 14:27 JimmyJRaynor wrote: i play as Random because its the most fun. to add to my advantage sometimes i'll lie to my opponent and act "manner" by immediately telling him my race. but, i'm lying to my opponent. the additional advantage is higher when my opponent believes i'm being honest. As a proud Random player, I think you should be ashamed of yourself. This kind of behavior gives all Random players a bad name. if i can get my opponent thinking about the "morality" of my actions... i'm already diverting his mind from the task at hand and winning that aspect of the game. deception is part of many games. someone once said "all war is deception". am i driving while drunk or making questionable tax deductions or even violating the games terms of service? nah, i'm playing a game for fun. deception is part of the game. sorry but youre just being a shitlord. Is winning really that important to you? as you said, youre just playing a game for fun.
and sometimes deception is part of the fun ... as it is in many games and sports. ..for the record i do not lie every game about my race.. winning is not important... fun is...
there is nuttin' like 12 pooling a protoss on a 4 player map when u told him u were terran
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On August 20 2015 18:01 Cascade wrote: Devils advocate here:
Isn't the difference between 2x proxy rax and cc first much larger than the difference between terran and protoss? None of them will be scouted early if you are unlucky on a 4 player map. I assume no one if arguing that the opening build order is displayed on the loading screen though. Why should random race be displayed, but not build order? First, because there can actually be strategy and mind games going into choice of build. If I know the metagame or I'm in my opponent's head, I can get ahead of the guy by anticipating what build he went for. To do that with race I would have to literally mind game Blizzard's random number generator.
Second, the difference isn't bigger because the breadth of 2x proxy rax and cc first is included in the range of possibilities from random players. So against a random player I don't just have to account for 2x proxy rax or eco cheese, I also have to account for proxy oracle and blink all-in and baneling bust and fast mutas and DT and whatever the fuck other all-in my opponent does every time he rolls this matchup. It's like the old IdrA argument from back in WoL – it's possible to defend any one of the cheeses from a given race, but it's difficult to be safe against all of them. Now compound that two more times as you have to try to be safe against not one race, but three.
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Russian Federation80 Posts
On August 20 2015 18:09 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2015 18:01 Cascade wrote: Devils advocate here:
Isn't the difference between 2x proxy rax and cc first much larger than the difference between terran and protoss? None of them will be scouted early if you are unlucky on a 4 player map. I assume no one if arguing that the opening build order is displayed on the loading screen though. Why should random race be displayed, but not build order? First, because there can actually be strategy and mind games going into choice of build. If I know the metagame or I'm in my opponent's head, I can get ahead of the guy by anticipating what build he went for. To do that with race I would have to literally mind game Blizzard's random number generator. Second, the difference isn't bigger because the breadth of 2x proxy rax and cc first is included in the range of possibilities from random players. So against a random player I don't just have to account for 2x proxy rax or eco cheese, I also have to account for proxy oracle and blink all-in and baneling bust and fast mutas and DT and whatever the fuck other all-in my opponent does every time he rolls this matchup. It's like the old IdrA argument from back in WoL – it's possible to defend any one of the cheeses from a given race, but it's difficult to be safe against all of them. Now compound that two more times as you have to try to be safe against not one race, but three.
Sorry it's way too difficult to be serious on this point anymore. You forgot to mention carrier, broodlord and battle cruises rushes against which you should be prepared when playing vs random.
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On August 20 2015 18:22 wasilix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2015 18:09 ChristianS wrote:On August 20 2015 18:01 Cascade wrote: Devils advocate here:
Isn't the difference between 2x proxy rax and cc first much larger than the difference between terran and protoss? None of them will be scouted early if you are unlucky on a 4 player map. I assume no one if arguing that the opening build order is displayed on the loading screen though. Why should random race be displayed, but not build order? First, because there can actually be strategy and mind games going into choice of build. If I know the metagame or I'm in my opponent's head, I can get ahead of the guy by anticipating what build he went for. To do that with race I would have to literally mind game Blizzard's random number generator. Second, the difference isn't bigger because the breadth of 2x proxy rax and cc first is included in the range of possibilities from random players. So against a random player I don't just have to account for 2x proxy rax or eco cheese, I also have to account for proxy oracle and blink all-in and baneling bust and fast mutas and DT and whatever the fuck other all-in my opponent does every time he rolls this matchup. It's like the old IdrA argument from back in WoL – it's possible to defend any one of the cheeses from a given race, but it's difficult to be safe against all of them. Now compound that two more times as you have to try to be safe against not one race, but three. Sorry it's way too difficult to be serious on this point anymore. You forgot to mention carrier, broodlord and battle cruises rushes against which you should be prepared when playing vs random. Thank you for your invaluable contribution, I'm sure we would be lost without you.
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The fact is, Random doesn't give an advantage when everything is said and done. Pros don't Random, and for good reason, because it's hard to learn all the match-ups.
However, the problem that ChristianS has (and I concur) is that it's unfair on principle that there should be any starting advantage whatsoever simply by picking Random. There's the inevitable skill disadvantage as the match progresses, but a tangible build order advantage for those picking Random. It's a net disadvantage, but some people would rather do away with the starting coin-flip, forced scout, safe build, or what have you. I agree.
I have played plenty of Random, and I have neither managed to win nor lose simply based on someone picking Random. There have been plenty of PvR's where I go "crap he's Protoss" and I immediately drop a second gate and gas and hope I don't get cheesed. It's worked out so far. Nonetheless, I have problems with Random hiding information in principle and would like it if the starting race were displayed for Random players on the loading screen. I don't think that's too much to ask for from those who pick Random.
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Czech Republic12116 Posts
On August 20 2015 18:40 WhiteLuminous wrote: The fact is, Random doesn't give an advantage when everything is said and done. Pros don't Random, and for good reason, because it's hard to learn all the match-ups.
However, the problem that ChristianS has (and I concur) is that it's unfair on principle that there should be any starting advantage whatsoever simply by picking Random. There's the inevitable skill disadvantage as the match progresses, but a tangible build order advantage for those picking Random. It's a net disadvantage, but some people would rather do away with the starting coin-flip, forced scout, safe build, or what have you. I agree.
I have played plenty of Random, and I have neither managed to win nor lose simply based on someone picking Random. There have been plenty of PvR's where I go "crap he's Protoss" and I immediately drop a second gate and gas and hope I don't get cheesed. It's worked out so far. Nonetheless, I have problems with Random hiding information in principle and would like it if the starting race were displayed for Random players on the loading screen. I don't think that's too much to ask for from those who pick Random. Or, I don't know, how about you know the starting location, so you can chose whether to play "greedy" yourself or go for immediate scout? Like forced cross spawn only, no random 4 players map
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On August 20 2015 18:47 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2015 18:40 WhiteLuminous wrote: The fact is, Random doesn't give an advantage when everything is said and done. Pros don't Random, and for good reason, because it's hard to learn all the match-ups.
However, the problem that ChristianS has (and I concur) is that it's unfair on principle that there should be any starting advantage whatsoever simply by picking Random. There's the inevitable skill disadvantage as the match progresses, but a tangible build order advantage for those picking Random. It's a net disadvantage, but some people would rather do away with the starting coin-flip, forced scout, safe build, or what have you. I agree.
I have played plenty of Random, and I have neither managed to win nor lose simply based on someone picking Random. There have been plenty of PvR's where I go "crap he's Protoss" and I immediately drop a second gate and gas and hope I don't get cheesed. It's worked out so far. Nonetheless, I have problems with Random hiding information in principle and would like it if the starting race were displayed for Random players on the loading screen. I don't think that's too much to ask for from those who pick Random. Or, I don't know, how about you know the starting location, so you can chose whether to play "greedy" yourself or go for immediate scout? Like forced cross spawn only, no random 4 players map Forced cross spawns might be a good idea on some maps anyway, but why do we want to limit map makers like that just to make it so the 1% of players who play random can keep their information advantage?
In this entire thread, I don't think I've heard a single argument why the information advantage actually should be there. I've heard plenty of people saying they like it, and entirely too many people reiterating some variation of "it's not imbalanced, or pro players would random" or "just send a starting worker, problem solved."
What's actually good about it? Even if you think that Random players deserve some help because they have to learn so many matchups, why choose this advantage instead of some other handicap? Why should it be this way, other than that it is already and you're used to it?
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Czech Republic12116 Posts
On August 20 2015 18:53 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2015 18:47 deacon.frost wrote:On August 20 2015 18:40 WhiteLuminous wrote: The fact is, Random doesn't give an advantage when everything is said and done. Pros don't Random, and for good reason, because it's hard to learn all the match-ups.
However, the problem that ChristianS has (and I concur) is that it's unfair on principle that there should be any starting advantage whatsoever simply by picking Random. There's the inevitable skill disadvantage as the match progresses, but a tangible build order advantage for those picking Random. It's a net disadvantage, but some people would rather do away with the starting coin-flip, forced scout, safe build, or what have you. I agree.
I have played plenty of Random, and I have neither managed to win nor lose simply based on someone picking Random. There have been plenty of PvR's where I go "crap he's Protoss" and I immediately drop a second gate and gas and hope I don't get cheesed. It's worked out so far. Nonetheless, I have problems with Random hiding information in principle and would like it if the starting race were displayed for Random players on the loading screen. I don't think that's too much to ask for from those who pick Random. Or, I don't know, how about you know the starting location, so you can chose whether to play "greedy" yourself or go for immediate scout? Like forced cross spawn only, no random 4 players map Forced cross spawns might be a good idea on some maps anyway, but why do we want to limit map makers like that just to make it so the 1% of players who play random can keep their information advantage? In this entire thread, I don't think I've heard a single argument why the information advantage actually should be there. I've heard plenty of people saying they like it, and entirely too many people reiterating some variation of "it's not imbalanced, or pro players would random" or "just send a starting worker, problem solved." What's actually good about it? Even if you think that Random players deserve some help because they have to learn so many matchups, why choose this advantage instead of some other handicap? Why should it be this way, other than that it is already and you're used to it? It removes randomness from pro play too Scout first vs. scout last is a huge deal in HotS and since LotV kills the starting time window for scouting...
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On August 20 2015 19:12 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2015 18:53 ChristianS wrote:On August 20 2015 18:47 deacon.frost wrote:On August 20 2015 18:40 WhiteLuminous wrote: The fact is, Random doesn't give an advantage when everything is said and done. Pros don't Random, and for good reason, because it's hard to learn all the match-ups.
However, the problem that ChristianS has (and I concur) is that it's unfair on principle that there should be any starting advantage whatsoever simply by picking Random. There's the inevitable skill disadvantage as the match progresses, but a tangible build order advantage for those picking Random. It's a net disadvantage, but some people would rather do away with the starting coin-flip, forced scout, safe build, or what have you. I agree.
I have played plenty of Random, and I have neither managed to win nor lose simply based on someone picking Random. There have been plenty of PvR's where I go "crap he's Protoss" and I immediately drop a second gate and gas and hope I don't get cheesed. It's worked out so far. Nonetheless, I have problems with Random hiding information in principle and would like it if the starting race were displayed for Random players on the loading screen. I don't think that's too much to ask for from those who pick Random. Or, I don't know, how about you know the starting location, so you can chose whether to play "greedy" yourself or go for immediate scout? Like forced cross spawn only, no random 4 players map Forced cross spawns might be a good idea on some maps anyway, but why do we want to limit map makers like that just to make it so the 1% of players who play random can keep their information advantage? In this entire thread, I don't think I've heard a single argument why the information advantage actually should be there. I've heard plenty of people saying they like it, and entirely too many people reiterating some variation of "it's not imbalanced, or pro players would random" or "just send a starting worker, problem solved." What's actually good about it? Even if you think that Random players deserve some help because they have to learn so many matchups, why choose this advantage instead of some other handicap? Why should it be this way, other than that it is already and you're used to it? It removes randomness from pro play too Scout first vs. scout last is a huge deal in HotS and since LotV kills the starting time window for scouting... I have no issue with force crossed spawns becoming a standard map-making practice, if that's what's best for the game. But random advantage creates a constraint on map makers, where they have to either create maps that allow very early scouting or else allow XvR matchups to potentially become kind of broken. What if map makers wanted to make a 6p map? Or a map with a really long, winding rush distance that can be reduced later by breaking destructible rocks? What about that crazy Proleague map a while back with all the destructible rocks that actually separated the two players entirely at the beginning of the game? As long as random advantage exists, we either can't have maps like that on ladder, or we have to accept that in games where one player is random, their opponent will be forced to either coin-flip to stay on equal footing, or start the game behind.
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Russian Federation80 Posts
On August 20 2015 18:24 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2015 18:22 wasilix wrote:On August 20 2015 18:09 ChristianS wrote:On August 20 2015 18:01 Cascade wrote: Devils advocate here:
Isn't the difference between 2x proxy rax and cc first much larger than the difference between terran and protoss? None of them will be scouted early if you are unlucky on a 4 player map. I assume no one if arguing that the opening build order is displayed on the loading screen though. Why should random race be displayed, but not build order? First, because there can actually be strategy and mind games going into choice of build. If I know the metagame or I'm in my opponent's head, I can get ahead of the guy by anticipating what build he went for. To do that with race I would have to literally mind game Blizzard's random number generator. Second, the difference isn't bigger because the breadth of 2x proxy rax and cc first is included in the range of possibilities from random players. So against a random player I don't just have to account for 2x proxy rax or eco cheese, I also have to account for proxy oracle and blink all-in and baneling bust and fast mutas and DT and whatever the fuck other all-in my opponent does every time he rolls this matchup. It's like the old IdrA argument from back in WoL – it's possible to defend any one of the cheeses from a given race, but it's difficult to be safe against all of them. Now compound that two more times as you have to try to be safe against not one race, but three. Sorry it's way too difficult to be serious on this point anymore. You forgot to mention carrier, broodlord and battle cruises rushes against which you should be prepared when playing vs random. Thank you for your invaluable contribution, I'm sure we would be lost without you.
Good to see that among all of my posts you chose the most sarcastic ones to reply to whilst ignoring those made on a serious note.
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On August 20 2015 19:42 wasilix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2015 18:24 ChristianS wrote:On August 20 2015 18:22 wasilix wrote:On August 20 2015 18:09 ChristianS wrote:On August 20 2015 18:01 Cascade wrote: Devils advocate here:
Isn't the difference between 2x proxy rax and cc first much larger than the difference between terran and protoss? None of them will be scouted early if you are unlucky on a 4 player map. I assume no one if arguing that the opening build order is displayed on the loading screen though. Why should random race be displayed, but not build order? First, because there can actually be strategy and mind games going into choice of build. If I know the metagame or I'm in my opponent's head, I can get ahead of the guy by anticipating what build he went for. To do that with race I would have to literally mind game Blizzard's random number generator. Second, the difference isn't bigger because the breadth of 2x proxy rax and cc first is included in the range of possibilities from random players. So against a random player I don't just have to account for 2x proxy rax or eco cheese, I also have to account for proxy oracle and blink all-in and baneling bust and fast mutas and DT and whatever the fuck other all-in my opponent does every time he rolls this matchup. It's like the old IdrA argument from back in WoL – it's possible to defend any one of the cheeses from a given race, but it's difficult to be safe against all of them. Now compound that two more times as you have to try to be safe against not one race, but three. Sorry it's way too difficult to be serious on this point anymore. You forgot to mention carrier, broodlord and battle cruises rushes against which you should be prepared when playing vs random. Thank you for your invaluable contribution, I'm sure we would be lost without you. Good to see that among all of my posts you chose the most sarcastic ones to reply to whilst ignoring those made on a serious note. Alright, let's recap all your contributions to the thread (I'll skip quoting everything, just so this isn't as much of a wall of text). You entered on page two to scoff at the thread in general, scoff at me specifically by pretending I was claiming TvT had a racial imbalance, and say to "just scout with a starting worker" – a comment which, in addition to not addressing the actual issue, was not even a new contribution to the thread. It had already been stated and responded to.
I didn't respond to your response to Zeromus since it wasn't directed at me, although I would have one objection:
On August 20 2015 09:02 wasilix wrote: Although you must admit that in all other cases (2 player maps, first scout on 4p maps, and non-P opponents) put randoms into disadvantage. Not only does random advantage still exist even in these cases – random players do not start with a disadvantage. Starting with a disadvantage is when you are given weaker tools than your opponent. If you're given equally strong tools, and yo just use them worse, the game didn't start you at a disadvantage, you were just worse at the game.
Then on page four you gave a dead Liquipedia link and repeated the information Lunchador gave a page earlier, that tournaments do allow players to pick random and they just don't generally do it. Then there's a post of pure assertion, you saying that you think Protoss should always be fine doing a 13 gate 14/15 gas against any race so it doesn't matter that they don't know what race they're against at that point. Maybe that's the one you think I purposely skipped responding to? I'll do that now:
+ Show Spoiler +Simply by nature of how different they are, different matchups often require completely different openings. For example, in some metagames Terran might need to take gas first to have a good chance of winning for one matchup, while for another CC first or 1 rax expand is the clear choice. Protoss historically has done everything from 1-base tech as a standard build (PvP) to FFE or fall behind (ZvP), and everything in between. Those decisions happen very early in the game, particularly now that the early early game gets skipped.
Who knows where the metagame will go, but it easily could reach a point where for one matchup a player needs to go gas first to stand a chance, and in another they need to expand immediately or fall way behind. Random advantage breaks situations like that, and often by going for a generic build like your 13 gate 14/15 gas, you'll find yourself either missing the tech you need to stay alive or missing the economy you need to stay competitive. Even if the metagame isn't in a state where random advantage is particularly broken, strategic complexity is removed from the game by putting one player in the dark. The only builds they have available to them are coin flips, and any build that actually takes advantage of the specific strengths or weaknesses of the races is out of the question. Making a strategy game less strategic seems like a bad thing.
Then on page five you went back to scoffing and sarcasm. So when you insist on acting so snide and superior, without really contributing almost any substance to the discussion, what are you actually thinking you're going to accomplish? Are you just trolling to derail the thread? Or do you genuinely want to aid the discussion, and just can't still your tongue when you think of something snotty to say? And just in case there's any confusion what I mean by snotty, I think "This thread is so rich" and "Yaha, TvT is imbalanced, got your point" are sufficient examples of snotty.
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I can not agree more with this. Random is a bad aspect of the game that forces randomness and too much difficulty to play competetively. Random can stay, but races should be defined in games.
There are many things about starcraft that is simply retro at not looked at because of the fact that starcraft may or may not have been competetive enough. Random races is one thing, only 10 control groups is another.
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Almost ever All-In based, frustration intolerant ladder guy has the same aguments.
"I cant do RoachBane bust, because you might be Toss" "QQ Pathetic Random"
But well it's about virtual points. There are very,Very Few players on earth that ACTUALLY would count an early worker scout as "Gamelosing disadvantage"
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On August 20 2015 17:28 Cascade wrote: I think we all agree on the "balance" part of playing random:
- A terran player that picks random and gets terran is in a better position than picking terran from the start. This is what OP refers to as "the random advantage".
- Playing random isn't a good choice if you want to get high on the ladder or win tournaments. While there is the advantage above, the disadvantage of 9 MUs outweighs that advantage.
I think the question then is only if it is fun to play vs random. Some seem to find it extremely frustrating, others (like me) don't seem to mind as much. But that's opinion, which it isn't much use to discuss I feel.
You're missing something. There's also a fun factor for playing Random to consider. It has to be fun to play Random or else why even bother having it in the game in the first place.
The Random advantage is a key part of making that happen.
What it ultimately comes down to is this. Random is not overpowered. I guarantee you that if playing Random brought you any kind of REAL advantage at the high levels it would be removed.
But it doesn't. In fact, playing Random is such a huge detriment to your ability to be successful at the high levels that even well known and high level random players like: TLO, Guineapig and Gumiho went to single races because they couldn't cut it playing as Random at that level.
There's no argument to be had for its removal other than "I don't like it!". Fortunately that isn't enough of an argument to change something that's as old and as engrained in the game as the way that Random works on the ladder.
So you don't like playing against Random players. Tough! There's a lot of shit in this game I don't like playing against either, but you don't see me arguing for their removal. That's all this comes down to eventually.
There are no balance concerns regarding Random. Random players DO NOT exist at the pro levels. Whatever advantage Random has only exists at the lower levels and in that regard, there are a ton of other imbalances at low levels that exist and will continue to exist because they are balanced at the higher levels. Random is exactly like that.
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On August 20 2015 21:01 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2015 17:28 Cascade wrote: I think we all agree on the "balance" part of playing random:
- A terran player that picks random and gets terran is in a better position than picking terran from the start. This is what OP refers to as "the random advantage".
- Playing random isn't a good choice if you want to get high on the ladder or win tournaments. While there is the advantage above, the disadvantage of 9 MUs outweighs that advantage.
I think the question then is only if it is fun to play vs random. Some seem to find it extremely frustrating, others (like me) don't seem to mind as much. But that's opinion, which it isn't much use to discuss I feel. You're missing something. There's also a fun factor for playing Random to consider. It has to be fun to play Random or else why even bother having it in the game in the first place. The Random advantage is a key part of making that happen. What it ultimately comes down to is this. Random is not overpowered. I guarantee you that if playing Random brought you any kind of REAL advantage at the high levels it would be removed. But it doesn't. In fact, playing Random is such a huge detriment to your ability to be successful at the high levels that even well known and high level random players like: TLO, Guineapig and Gumiho went to single races because they couldn't cut it playing as Random at that level. There's no argument to be had for its removal other than "I don't like it!". Fortunately that isn't enough of an argument to change something that's as old and as engrained in the game as the way that Random works on the ladder. So you don't like playing against Random players. Tough! There's a lot of shit in this game I don't like playing against either, but you don't see me arguing for their removal. That's all this comes down to eventually. There are no balance concerns regarding Random. Random players DO NOT exist at the pro levels. Whatever advantage Random has only exists at the lower levels and in that regard, there are a ton of other imbalances at low levels that exist and will continue to exist because they are balanced at the higher levels. Random is exactly like that. Yes, you are right. Random players having fun is part of it as well, and I guess few random players would say that random is more boring than other choices, as they could simply switch. Some randoms, not all, seem to be fine with having their race shown to the opponent though, a few even desire it.
Anyway, in the end I simply don't believe that this small little random advantage really causes so much problems to people. Yeah, it'll be annoying that one time in I don't know how many you 1) play against a random (less than 10% play random) 2) on a 4-player map 3) scout them last 4) picked a bad build against that race and 5) picked a bad build against that build. But if that is even close to one of the major issues with sc2, the devs should be very happy with themselves imo. I really think it is just a small vocal minority that for whatever reason got stuck on it and can't get their mind off how unfair it is every time they run into a random player. I can even see people not scout immediately just to confirm how unfair it is.
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Playing random = 9 matchups to master. Playing one race = 3 matchups to master.
There is your imbalance.
Not even going to the pro level, if random was really imbalanced there would be far more random player in GM, it's not the case (approx. 10%).
So i don't really see your point.
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What if we just didn't display anyone's starting race? It would essentially be RvR. Problem solved?
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