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On August 10 2009 07:38 tree.hugger wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2009 07:16 darktreb wrote:On August 08 2009 23:36 Hot_Bid wrote:
Also, Fantasy pulled one amazing TvZ comeback (a game that Jaedong really really should have won, as his coach alluded to that in the interview) and one brilliant build, invented by Boxer, that literally any pro Terran could have pulled off given JD's response. I agree that Fantasy is better in TvZ (because you're always scared of what he'll do) but just a week ago people still weren't that sure how good Fantasy's TvZ was because he loses to bad players sometimes and his bio control is still not great for a player of his class (and it wasn't that good against JD on Outsider either, which is part of the reason why JD got a huge lead and even infested a CC at one point...).
Tired of this " fantasy just executes builds that better tacticians come up with" line. Fantasy is by all accounts an excellent tactician in his own right and he has the control to pull of so many strategies. It's disingenuous to suggest that any Terran could've pulled off that build, because that doesn't explain why fantasy is SKT1's #1. Why not Canata? Why not Mong? If fantasy is some mindless robot, then why is he so much better than any other SKT1 Terran? Why is he the best Terran in the game right now?
They get the same coaching, but his execution and his overall game is probably just better. But I totally agree with your point; Fantasy is not simply an extension of oov/boxer/any other coach or player. Not only canata and mong, but why aren't boxer or midas doing very well? He is a great player in his own right and he just happens to have one of the best support systems behind him. He defines his own playing style and to take away from his ability and results by pinning it on the coaches is really selling him short.
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On August 10 2009 20:57 Nylan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2009 07:15 Avidkeystamper wrote: Fantasy should take the #1 spot easily if he beats Jaedong. If not, then obviously JD keeps the #1. Unless he loses to Calm, which I don't see happening. Given that he beat JD in essentially a Bo3 in the most important tournament in Starcraft and Jaedong also lost his match to Hyuk in the same hugely important match, I don't see why fantasy would have to beat him to take #1. Why should he have to beat Jaedong in two different tournaments while the zerg only has to beat fantasy in one and all his PL mistakes are forgiven? I think Jaedong's victory needs to be crushing if he is going to take it from fantasy, you can't go 0-3 in the proleague with two of the losses to your competition for #1 and expect to be on even footing with them going into a Bo5. Well, if JD beats Fantasy, you could say Given that he beat Fantasy in a Bo5 in the most prestigious individual tournament, I don't see why losing a Bo3 should move him down.
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On August 11 2009 01:02 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2009 20:57 Nylan wrote:On August 10 2009 07:15 Avidkeystamper wrote: Fantasy should take the #1 spot easily if he beats Jaedong. If not, then obviously JD keeps the #1. Unless he loses to Calm, which I don't see happening. Given that he beat JD in essentially a Bo3 in the most important tournament in Starcraft and Jaedong also lost his match to Hyuk in the same hugely important match, I don't see why fantasy would have to beat him to take #1. Why should he have to beat Jaedong in two different tournaments while the zerg only has to beat fantasy in one and all his PL mistakes are forgiven? I think Jaedong's victory needs to be crushing if he is going to take it from fantasy, you can't go 0-3 in the proleague with two of the losses to your competition for #1 and expect to be on even footing with them going into a Bo5. Well, if JD beats Fantasy, you could say Given that he beat Fantasy in a Bo5 in the most prestigious individual tournament, I don't see why losing a Bo3 should move him down.
I can't think of many things that would move a person further down a PR than losing three games in the most important match of the year, and on top of that fantasy's PR stock just skyrocketed. He needs to win very convincingly.
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Don't worry Nylan, Fantasy will be #1 next Power Rank no matter what happens.
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If Fantasy loses, that would mean he just lost three games in the most important individual league? Pointless debate anyways, the recent games leave the most impressions anyways. I mean last month does anyone even remember JD going on a 3 loss streak?
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On August 11 2009 01:10 Avidkeystamper wrote: If Fantasy loses, that would mean he just lost three games in the most important individual league? Pointless debate anyways, the recent games leave the most impressions anyways. I mean last month does anyone even remember JD going on a 3 loss streak?
Sure, but how many OSLs are there a year? I'm not saying he can't keep his #1 spot, but the weights are certainly heavily tipped both against him and in fantasy's favor right now.
If we wanted to be more formal, JD's margin of victory over fantasy must be equal to or greater than the disparity between their respective performances in the PL final. 0-3 vs 3-0 MVP. (although this is of course simplified, as there will be more going on this month than just those two events)
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" I'm not saying he can't keep his #1 spot, but the weights are certainly heavily tipped both against him and in fantasy's favor right now."
I agree with this, particularly since you were saying that
"Why should he have to beat Jaedong in two different tournaments while the zerg only has to beat fantasy in one and all his PL mistakes are forgiven?"
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On August 11 2009 01:15 Nylan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2009 01:10 Avidkeystamper wrote: If Fantasy loses, that would mean he just lost three games in the most important individual league? Pointless debate anyways, the recent games leave the most impressions anyways. I mean last month does anyone even remember JD going on a 3 loss streak? Sure, but how many OSLs are there a year? I'm not saying he can't keep his #1 spot, but the weights are certainly heavily tipped both against him and in fantasy's favor right now. If we wanted to be more formal, JD's margin of victory over fantasy must be equal to or greater than the disparity between their respective performances in the PL final. 0-3 vs 3-0 MVP. (although this is of course simplified, as there will be more going on this month than just those two events)
Wow, that's a really high bar you're setting, considering Jaedong is still in the MSL.
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On August 11 2009 01:18 EvoChamber wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2009 01:15 Nylan wrote:On August 11 2009 01:10 Avidkeystamper wrote: If Fantasy loses, that would mean he just lost three games in the most important individual league? Pointless debate anyways, the recent games leave the most impressions anyways. I mean last month does anyone even remember JD going on a 3 loss streak? Sure, but how many OSLs are there a year? I'm not saying he can't keep his #1 spot, but the weights are certainly heavily tipped both against him and in fantasy's favor right now. If we wanted to be more formal, JD's margin of victory over fantasy must be equal to or greater than the disparity between their respective performances in the PL final. 0-3 vs 3-0 MVP. (although this is of course simplified, as there will be more going on this month than just those two events) Wow, that's a really high bar you're setting, considering Jaedong is still in the MSL.
Hence the parenthesis. That's also where the respective weighting of OSL, MSL, and PL results comes in. Have fun with that, JWD.
On August 11 2009 01:18 Avidkeystamper wrote: " I'm not saying he can't keep his #1 spot, but the weights are certainly heavily tipped both against him and in fantasy's favor right now."
I agree with this, particularly since you were saying that
"Why should he have to beat Jaedong in two different tournaments while the zerg only has to beat fantasy in one and all his PL mistakes are forgiven?"
Personally, I want to see Fantasy and Jaedong split the OSL/MSL. Even if it means Calm loses.
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A few weeks after, this PR seems really off.. SC is a weird game..
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
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On August 11 2009 04:27 Karmosin wrote: A few weeks after, this PR seems really off.. SC is a weird game..
That's because the level of the gosus are so close. It's not like it used to be, with one guy dominating the scene for months at a time, like Savior or Oov.
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United States2186 Posts
I just want to point out (without saying anything in either direction upon the rankings) that it's quite hilarious how the #1 ELO isn't on the PR ^_^
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that's because Flash has been farming weaker players for ELO points
(not completely true but JwaJa was completely outclassed and was basically free points)
(he hasn't done much though in terms of facing top-tier players recently either, although he's been quite successful with butchering his way through GOM and racking up the wins there)
(grats on giving rabid Flash fans another statistic to throw around though)
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There are no free ELO points.
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Farming for points LOL It's not like flash chooses who he plays against and every player goes up against weaker players all the time. It's kind of hard to avoid when you are a really good player like Flash or Jaedong and play many games in proleague and in individual leagues. I thought flash is 3rd and Jaedong was 1st in ELo.
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I know all these things and it's clear that Flash isn't actually trying to game any ELO system at all - I just thought that the concept of a progamer farming for ELO was funny
(there *are* free ELO points though, depending on your definition of "free" and the game/ELO system, a degree of artificial rank inflation is certainly possible if you actually try)
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Well, if you define "free" in such a way such that there are "free" ELO points, then there are obviously "free" ELO points.
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On August 11 2009 09:00 Avidkeystamper wrote: Well, if you define "free" in such a way such that there are "free" ELO points, then there are obviously "free" ELO points.
This is the truest statement I have read in weeks.
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On August 11 2009 08:21 scrubtastic wrote: that's because Flash has been farming weaker players for ELO points
(not completely true but JwaJa was completely outclassed and was basically free points)
It's Flash's fault that he completely outclasses JwaJa, and I'm glad we both agree that this should count against Flash.
(he hasn't done much though in terms of facing top-tier players recently either, although he's been quite successful with butchering his way through GOM and racking up the wins there)
It's Flash's fault that Jaedong/Effort dropped out of GOM! It's also Flash's fault that his TvT is 70% and that he's the favorite over Iris! We're in complete agreement, my friend.
Damn that Flash, always trying to dodge fighting strong players! NOT CLOSE AND NO CIGAR for Flash next month for failing to get Jaedong to the GOM finals and for not being 4 people so KT could win games. He can have #10 if he 3-0s Iris and all-kills eSTRO, KHAN, CJ, hite, Oz, T1, and STX, maybe. But only if he plays perfectly every game while he does it.
He also needs to not only be #1 ELO, but be #1 ELO by at least 200 points.
+ Show Spoiler +The profile page of a miserable failure:
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