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On August 25 2009 04:40 o[twist] wrote: guys stop posting and flaming each other so much. fantasy is obviously a top player right now just like effort was a couple months ago and just like calm also is now. if there's a meaningful distinction to be made it's between these players who are showing skill and results but not necessarily demonstrating their ability to stick around and become champions over and over again like bisu or jaedong. SKT inner fight, i love it ^^ why would they stop?
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On August 25 2009 04:55 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2009 04:40 o[twist] wrote: guys stop posting and flaming each other so much. fantasy is obviously a top player right now just like effort was a couple months ago and just like calm also is now. if there's a meaningful distinction to be made it's between these players who are showing skill and results but not necessarily demonstrating their ability to stick around and become champions over and over again like bisu or jaedong. SKT inner fight, i love it ^^ why would they stop?
I, and insofar as I am part of this debate, am actually not an SKT1 fan in particular. I once considered Fantasy a flavor of the month phenomenon and have only slowly, but surely, come around to realizing that he plays exceptionally well. Day 1 Game 1 of the PL finals was a real turning point for me- I simply loved that game.
Also while I generally agree with what you said o[twist], I would say that Fantasy did not explode quite like Effort did. Fantasy has been getting some serious recognition here for a greater span of time and at least a few months before Effort did, at least at TL, I conjecture. (Though some Effort fan should correct me if I'm wrong here).
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I thought vampyr was an STX fan?
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if we follow your idea Hieros , if jaedong doesnt play one single game in september , he will be OUT of top 10 PR ?
i want to understand something , in some ranking , the 1#spot is for the BEST player right ? its the objective of ELO or kespa right ? to determinate THE best player . am i right ?
we dont care if fantasy played more games than bisu . we care about fantasy showed or not that he has became better than bisu .
by the way , im STX and Estro fan nylan .
my favourite player is jaedong my most hated player is bisu
I HATE bisu , so I DONT WANT HIM in the top PR .
im just OBJECTIVE .
its NOT ALL ABOUT RESULTS .
stork is 9 7 vs bisu , is stork better ?
fantasy has shown great games recently , vs jaedong and hiya ( the tvt vs hiya PL finals was one of the highest lvl of SC i have ever seen ) doest it prove clearly that he is better than bisu ?
just NO ..
calm is doing great for a long time now , he has became a BEAST for 3 4 month now . he has shown CLEARLY that he is now better than some effort canata iris or even yellow[arnc] .
the #2 #3 #4 spots are hard to choose , i can agree with that , but the case bisu > fantasy is really clear for me .
bisu is the ONLY player who can claim to be as good as jaedong . i personnaly think JD is clearly better , but once again , if you think objectivly , bisu can claim that .
fantasy just CANT claim the same thing
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and calm is playing SC for a few years now , fantasy only for maybe a year or two maybe ?
calm is a more experienced player .
and you can tell all you want about my pathetic argument , but SC is ALL about koreans .
if all korea say bisu is the best P of history , being disagree would be ignorant and newbie . ( in my opinion , stork is better , but i KNOW im wrong ) SC is korea . if tomorrow korea dissapears , SC just die in about a few month .
bisu is known in korea to be the best player right now with jaedong , many journalists ask him about his JD/him rivalrly , he answer his rival is stork . have you ever eard about JD/fantasy rivalry ? its only JD/flash rivalry .
in every JD/fantasy game , jaedong was ALWAYS the CLEAR favourite . in every JD/bisu game NOBODY was CLEAR favourite .
you just can't have other opinion than korea about the level of XXXX , if you have , you are just wrong .
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while i agree fantasy has been around for awhile, having made the semifinals of two straight osls, it's only recently that a consensus has emerged that he's the strongest terran (not that i necessarily even buy that given there's flash and iris and leta)
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Russian Federation405 Posts
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What is this nonsense? Bisu is probably the best Protoss player ever. So what? Bisu lost to Iris 2-3 in MSL, beat perfectman (a total rookie) and 2-1ed a slumping free in wcg.
Meanwhile, Fantasy took out Jaedong twice in the proleague (setting sktt1 up for an overwhelming 4-0 rape on day 1 and finishing it off in the ace match on day 2), lost to a Golden Mouse hungry Jaedong 1-2, beat a nobody Arisol 2-0 and looked strong as hell vs a powerful kal 2-1 in wcg.
If Jaedong plays 0 games in September, it depends on why he didn't play any games. If it were due to scheduling and the fact that his team hasn't been playing because he's already in the grand finals, then obviously he deserves a high rank. If he choked at the end of the season and his team isn't in proleague and he didn't qualify for the prestigious individual leagues, then out he goes.
Just because they play starcraft in Korea doesn't mean that we in America cannot analyze their play or watch their games. What kind of inane argument is that?
The power rank isn't just about who's the best. It's about who performed well during the last month and gives a small nod to those who have been performing consistently. Bisu is probably better than Fantasy. Does this mean he deserves a higher power rank? Absolutely not.
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All the fighting aside, I've always wanted to make the PR totally about how is the best right now. But then someone mentioned that PR would be incredibly boring because it would never change every month, people like Bisu, Fantasy, Jaedong would always stay on the top. It's a good point. But its bad to make the PR totally based on monthly performance too. Lets say Perfectman beat rookies 8-0 in 1 month, while someone like Flash beat tough opponents and had a record of 6-2 in another month. Of course, the 8-0 record is always going to look better than 6-2 but we KNOW that Flash is a better player than Perfectman so thats why we always try to find a balance in the PR between the strongest at the moment, and the monthly performances.
Too bad its not my PR, if it was my PR, I would only need to update the PR once a year maybe. Because I will always make it about who is the best player of that month, and disregard the monthly performances.
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It's a tough balance between 'who performed the best this month' and 'who are the current best Starcraft players'. It's why so many people blew up at JWD this month for dropping Flash - a lot of people feel that one mediocre month shouldn't make someone of his caliber (undeniably Top 5 in skill, some would say #2 or 3) drop entirely off the PR - I agree.
If you go too far towards the 'who performed the best last month' route, you would have to drop someone like Jaedong if he played two games and went 0-2. Of course that's completely idiotic, and everyone knows it.
The other way, though, every month the top slots would be Jaedong, Bisu, Flash, Fantasy (not necessarily in that order), and it would be harder to acknowledge up-and-coming players who are doing amazing.
It's always a tough job to balance the two. It also helps if the PR writers make sure to take off their team *COUGHSKT1COUGH* glasses when they make it, but no matter what it'll never be perfect since it's an arbitrary balance between those two extremes.
My personal opinion, I think Fantasy should be > Bisu next month, and I'm not sure which of them is a 'better player' at the moment, although I suspect it's probably still Bisu. They're close in skill, but Fantasy posted far better results. But Bisu should still be high on the rank.
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On August 25 2009 17:47 Hinanawi wrote: It's always a tough job to balance the two. It also helps if the PR writers make sure to take off their team *COUGHSKT1COUGH* glasses when they make it, but no matter what it'll never be perfect since it's an arbitrary balance between those two extremes.
I don't know about that. I really enjoy the power rank + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler +
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Today's WCG report:
Kwanro made Leta look like a noob (or maybe Leta did it to himself), further legitimizing a middle-somewhere placement on the next PR.
Flash reaffirmed that his TvZ is the best in the game.
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On August 25 2009 11:21 ghostWriter wrote:
Just because they play starcraft in Korea doesn't mean that we in America cannot analyze their play or watch their games. What kind of inane argument is that?
you can watch and analyse their games , i do it everyday . but as a fan of starcraft , you MUST be attentive at what korea says , and if you hear something that you disagree with , you must ask yourself you may be in the wrong .
all SC has been invented by 80% korea . SC is korea . that's simple .
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Quoting this for posterity:
On August 04 2009 00:24 JWD wrote: I'm getting pretty tired of the same old "Flash is really good, he just loses all of his games" line.
Flash's 1v1 record at the moment:
Over 65% in his weakest matchup, 70% in his mirror, just raped the 2nd or 3rd best Zerg player 2-0 with his weakest matchup, highest overall winning percentage of any player at the moment (including Jaedong).
But surely he's just been racking up wins against scrubs who aren't worth any points! Watch, I'll bet he's low on ELO because he can't beat good players:
Oh...oh dear. Looks like he's actually in 1st by a large margin and at his personal all-time highs in vT and vZ.
Maybe you can find it in your heart to give Flash a modest #10 spot next month?
If not, I understand, I mean he DID drop one game to Iris, which is absolutely unacceptable. Also, if he drops even one game against Bisu 2 days from now then he's absolute garbage and we should definitely keep him off the PR another month.
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yea flash's tvz looked prety damm impressive again, like from his prime when he was playing dead even with jeadong at his best losing in the msl but winning the osl and gom over him.
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On August 25 2009 22:44 4Servy wrote: yea flash's tvz looked prety damm impressive again, like from his prime when he was playing dead even with jeadong at his best losing in the msl but winning the osl and gom over him. I think the part of Flash's TvZ that has been questioned lately is his ability to handle aggressive early game zergs (Yarnc's 2 hatch muta, Kwanrollurkers ...). To be honest, today's games didn't answer much on that front. Effort went for muta harass which Flash fended off without breaking a sweat, but I get the feeling Effort wasn't playing to his own strengths with that. Flash vs Kwanro rematch might've been more interesting.
Flash's late game has always been solid, and even the series against July proved of that. Despite claims that July played bad, a large part (not all --- July also made obvious mistakes) was due to Flash's way of totally shutting down the zerg's offensive machinery, making the zerg look worse than he actually is. Today was more of the same, albeit against a stronger opponent.
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flash obviously deserves to be on PR, it was poor judgment to keep him off last month. i'm not expecting to be much happier this month based on jwd's comments in other threads though.
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Ehh, I think JWD's reasoning in CBNC was pretty good. However, he definitely needs to be back up there this month.
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On August 25 2009 21:19 Hinanawi wrote:Quoting this for posterity: Show nested quote +On August 04 2009 00:24 JWD wrote: I'm getting pretty tired of the same old "Flash is really good, he just loses all of his games" line. ... Maybe you can find it in your heart to give Flash a modest #10 spot next month? If not, I understand, I mean he DID drop one game to Iris, which is absolutely unacceptable. Also, if he drops even one game against Bisu 2 days from now then he's absolute garbage and we should definitely keep him off the PR another month.
I love this guy.
I'll admit that Flash vs July was not a particularly good showing of defense against a strong early game zerg. As for Flash vs Effort, I think Flash just made it look easy in their Outsider game. I still need to rewatch it, but I remember thinking that his unit positioning when the mutas first came out was amazing.
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i say just ignore vampyr, he is just rooting for the big names without any idea of the games the players played. bisu gets his ASS handed to him by iris on a silver platter, and somehow he is rank 3. fantasy demolishes in osl, proleague and ends up lower than bisu. you have stork who hasnt done much except play wcg, some proleague, and fail out of the starleagues get the #10 spot over iris who has been playing spectacularly up until his games against kwanro....
you really don't watch results you are just a dumbass troll vampyr
the fans in korea are just the same as the fans in the US, we root for the players we love. and unless the boards are progamers telling us this or that or who is the strongest players at the moment, fuck what the fans say, doesnt matter much.
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