[D]TvZ 1-1-1 FE Double Reactor push - Page 2
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SecretA5DC
Korea (South)225 Posts
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On February 15 2011 03:29 SecretA5DC wrote: Now that there's a step by step guide, I'll have to go try it out on ladder. ^^ lol I've been telling you for a while dude! The allbusiness replay is me smurfing, just played it today. First game of the day vs 3k master zerg and he just left once I pushed after such a nice harass. You'll like it. Very aggressive opening. | ||
Duka08
3391 Posts
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JanLui
France50 Posts
i'm really loving it and winning many games at my level (gold) for 8 days since u posted on this topic : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=190650 i just tried to summaryse it for a french speaking build order website if u don't mind http://www.starcraft2-bo.com/builder/view-bo?boid=UXCVSM | ||
iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On February 15 2011 03:47 JanLui wrote: awesome build i'm really loving it and winning many games at my level (gold) for 8 days since u posted on this topic : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=190650 i just tried to summaryse it for a french speaking build order website if u don't mind http://www.starcraft2-bo.com/builder/view-bo?boid=UXCVSM lol I'm actually quite surprised and flattered how well people take this build. Once people run it and learn the transition, it's SO versatile. It's a 1-1-1 FE! You can do anything, and it just happens that a push is the best option to set up a marine tank hellion medic army for a push at ~14 min if the initial push doesn't win. What cracks me up is the 'its too all in' or people who obviously don't read or watch a game. Sure, it has many weaknesses, but I've faced fast roach, fast infestor, fast muta, sling/bling bust, sling/roach, roach/hydra, sling/bling/muta it just does so well vs everything at that stage in the game. | ||
Mercury-
Great Britain804 Posts
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P0ckets
United States430 Posts
On February 15 2011 03:25 iAmJeffReY wrote: It's more so just a feint. If I can get it up, I get it up and load 2-3 marines in it just to delay mining at their expo and force slings + spines. The more overlords sacced, the better. I'm going to be going around killing them anyways, so if you sac it you'll see me FEing, get a sense of safety, and drone up. If zergs drone up, they lose. If they speed to mutas, they lose. If they try fast tier2 roach they lose. It's such a huge ball of units that preparation is kinda silly for it since it's much like a 2 rax -- I can scan, see I don't want to go, and sit at my expo and take an early third with 3 tanks and marine medic with vikings harassing until mutas pop. Unfortunately, it's not too easy to pick up =/ It took me a LONG time since I saw a variation of it to make it work for me. You gotta be able to keep hellions alive, but still apply pressure. And at the same time be swapping tech paths, and constantly making marines and scvs and viking harassing. It's dependant on harass. However, the vikings are hitting about the time zergs are VERY vunerable..right during lair tech. I do like your strong attempt to deny, which forces sacrificing overlords, and then you go on the offense against them. It is really annoying as a zerg to have Ovis die like that, but the first sacrificing overlord is usually prepared to be sacrificed by build 2 ovis before I sacrifice the 1. I usually play very scared against terran since they have the most diverse teching options so I typically always sac an ovi at 5:30-5:45 mark. Also how do you transition in the late game? I could see a couple instances where if the zerg player more defensive he could use his queens, spine, and defenders advantage to stop the initial push. Do you then go back to standard MMM/Viking/tank/, mech based, or drop harass? Since you have been hunting ovis I would see drop harass and a natural extension of your strat since zerg will have limit view around the map. | ||
morimacil
France921 Posts
Did you even watch the replays? He is killing tons of drones early, queens, and all other sorts of shit early. He is either ahead or even with the Zerg the entire game on worker production (most of the time ahead). He can afford to pull scvs to push because Mules can temporarily supplement his economy during this push, and it will force the Z to pull his drones to defend against this. If both trade armies the Terran is well ahead because of the massive amount of eco damage he did, because the Z literally has to throw EVERYTHING he has to defend against this push. I did watch most of them. And yes, his harass is doing a good amount of damage, putting him ahead in most cases. Which is the reason why he can afford to make a CC and then all-in. Once you are ahead, even if your follow up is suboptimal, it doesnt really matter all that much, because you are already ahead. But the fact still stands, that if he didnt build an OC, and 12 SCVs to pull, and instead made 2 extra rax, and 12 marines, his all-in would be even stronger than it is now. The OC is a waste of money there, if he made more army instead, then the push would be even stronger. And since he relies on that push to absolutely cripple the zerg, he might as well make the push as strong as possible. Check out the second uploaded game there, "vs 2700 master Z on xelnaga (mess up forgetting siege and still walk)" He is attacking with what he produced from the 1-1-1 build, plus 8 SCVs that were produced from the OC. At this point (11:30), the only thing the OC has done to strengthen the push, is making 8 SCVs. The extra production from getting a second base, is not up yet. If that OC had been an extra rax or 2 instead, making for example marines, or marauders, then the investment would have been the exact same, and his push would have been at the exact same time, except it would have been much stronger. How come his push still does a lot of damage even though its not optimal you ask? Thats because when he pushes, he is at 88 food vs 43 food. So yeah, even though his push is less than optimal, he still does damage. But if his push had been a stronger 1-base all-in, instead of a weaker expansion push, then he could have won the game outright with that push, and a 45 food lead. If hed just expanded, gotten the extra production online from the expo, and then pushed, he would also have had an easier time winning. Before the push, he is at a 45 food lead, and right after, he is at a 35 food lead. That push is terrible, and the timing of that all-in push relative to what the terran is doing (getting an expo up but no benefit from it yet) is also terrible. If you check the replays, his opening wins him the game. He gets a 25-45 food lead just from the opening harass in nearly all of those games. Which quite obviously is amazing. But also hides the fact that that push with SCVs doesnt really need all that many SCVs, and also isnt very strong at all. The harassment opening gives him a gigantic lead. At that point, when he has 50-100% more food than his opponent, nearly anything he does is very likely to win him the game. He choses to all-in before his expo production arrives, with some SCVs, and thats not optimal. It works, because he has a huge lead already. If he decided to for example go for a 2 base battlecruiser all-in, that also wouldnt be optimal, but it would most likely still win, because he has double the food of his opponent. | ||
iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
How I transition late game? After expo, I drop 2 rax 1 fac more. Reactor more, 2 tech lab rax for fast cs/stim and +1 attack. 2nd fac get a reactor and blue flame gets researched. Push again with marine tank hellion medic scv (for repair). Up until about my 3rd base, every attack I do, I pull scvs because being even on bases and having mules puts me ahead. It's that added stuff in the way and repair/AI targeting SCVs. It transitions VERY well into marine tank medic hellion, a very strong army mid game. If they muta ball up, I get 1-2 thors MAX and push asap. Being even on bases, muta balls = no bling balls ya know? Or, if they roach and repel me away (they lose a LOT btw), I go 2 rax mara 1 reactor rax marine, mara marine scv viking medic tank hellion pushes. Without mutas, the pushes get more and more deadly with the addition of more and more units and upgrades. | ||
iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On February 15 2011 04:03 iAmJeffReY wrote: Well, when I push, I siege up to hit have tanks hitting spines, and when queens come in, they get FF'ed down in case the push DOES fail, I'm set to make them miss inject cycles. And once you take out the 1-2 queens at the nat, you lift up vikings if any OLs are near to just put them further behind. How I transition late game? After expo, I drop 2 rax 1 fac more. Reactor more, 2 tech lab rax for fast cs/stim and +1 attack. 2nd fac get a reactor and blue flame gets researched. Push again with marine tank hellion medic scv (for repair). Up until about my 3rd base, every attack I do, I pull scvs because being even on bases and having mules puts me ahead. It's that added stuff in the way and repair/AI targeting SCVs. It transitions VERY well into marine tank medic hellion, a very strong army mid game. If they muta ball up, I get 1-2 thors MAX and push asap. Being even on bases, muta balls = no bling balls ya know? Or, if they roach and repel me away (they lose a LOT btw), I go 2 rax mara 1 reactor rax marine, mara marine scv viking medic tank hellion pushes. Without mutas, the pushes get more and more deadly with the addition of more and more units and upgrades. Guy above me -- That's the whole key on the harassment. The ball of SCV is too much for them to deal with. Too big of a surface area without banes. With sling/roach/etc with half decent control and siege up, there's nothing they can do to 100% squash is without having late lair mass sling roach, or whatever. The point of the harass is that by supply blocking, sniping queens, and drones, that you mess up their macro / inject cycles so the push has such a high DPS and auto repair makes it so resilient. What can zerg do vs hellion harass? Make spines. Block ramp with queens. They're wasting time and money on something meant to keep them busy. If they don't react, the hellions eat up drones and slings. I mean, beyond the two times I got bane busted in that ball without microing at all, I'm doing stellar damage after most times a sub par harass. It's not at all an all in. Just by pulling scvs doesn't make it an all in. That's the magic of the OC/mule. It means my 75% mech army now has 'medics' to heal them. It now means I have more surface area, and a bigger ball to deal with. Roach/sling/queens have too much to get through to get to the tanks or the marines thru the hellion/scv wall. If I was to all in, which I do sometimes, I land the fac with a reactor, stay massing hellions, and marines, and vikings and push sans siege tanks with hellion viking marine 75% of SCVs. Again, blind banes is the only way to stop that, the DPS is too high. That or just poor control losing hellions ahead of army, not getting side shots etc. | ||
morimacil
France921 Posts
It's a 1-1-1 FE! You can do anything, and it just happens that a push is the best option to set up a marine tank hellion medic army for a push at ~14 min if the initial push doesn't win. If you instead went for a true 1 base all-in, it would be a lot stronger. I wouldnt recommend it though. Your 1-1-1 harass into expo is obviously strong, and gets you a huge lead. Instead of potentially throwing that lead away, the safest option would be to just sit back on your expo and 30 food lead, while continuing to harass a bit, get your extra production up, and then push. That would be much much safer, and also a lot stronger. | ||
iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On February 15 2011 04:11 morimacil wrote: If you instead went for a true 1 base all-in, it would be a lot stronger. I wouldnt recommend it though. Your 1-1-1 harass into expo is obviously strong, and gets you a huge lead. Instead of potentially throwing that lead away, the safest option would be to just sit back on your expo and 30 food lead, while continuing to harass a bit, get your extra production up, and then push. That would be much much safer, and also a lot stronger. Well, to my defense, I didn't know until I got to his base that I forgot siege lol. That is true, sometimes pushing isn't the best option since the harass does so well. I have this problem in all my match ups. 1 - I'm an scv fighting champion. 2 - I'm way too aggressive. I try to force people to make mistakes and pick apart holes in their game play with safe, 1-1-1 expo like openings. | ||
IronWolf
South Africa315 Posts
Those early vikings remind me of the PvZ BW corsair harass And then using them on the ground is different - i but really cool to apply more pressure to the inevitable mutas that will pop around the push time if it is a bit delayed or drags on. | ||
morimacil
France921 Posts
Imagine you make a rax, with a tech lab on it, start researching stim, and then push to arrive at his base when its half way done. It would be much stronger to either not get stim, and push with more stuff, or wait a little, and push to arrive there once stim is done. And again, ofc, if you are at a 30 food lead, you can probably afford to push and arrive at his base when stim is half done, and still do a ton of damage, but that doesnt make it optimal. | ||
superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On February 15 2011 04:03 morimacil wrote: I did watch most of them. And yes, his harass is doing a good amount of damage, putting him ahead in most cases. Which is the reason why he can afford to make a CC and then all-in. Once you are ahead, even if your follow up is suboptimal, it doesnt really matter all that much, because you are already ahead. But the fact still stands, that if he didnt build an OC, and 12 SCVs to pull, and instead made 2 extra rax, and 12 marines, his all-in would be even stronger than it is now. The OC is a waste of money there, if he made more army instead, then the push would be even stronger. And since he relies on that push to absolutely cripple the zerg, he might as well make the push as strong as possible. Check out the second uploaded game there, "vs 2700 master Z on xelnaga (mess up forgetting siege and still walk)" He is attacking with what he produced from the 1-1-1 build, plus 8 SCVs that were produced from the OC. At this point (11:30), the only thing the OC has done to strengthen the push, is making 8 SCVs. The extra production from getting a second base, is not up yet. If that OC had been an extra rax or 2 instead, making for example marines, or marauders, then the investment would have been the exact same, and his push would have been at the exact same time, except it would have been much stronger. How come his push still does a lot of damage even though its not optimal you ask? Thats because when he pushes, he is at 88 food vs 43 food. So yeah, even though his push is less than optimal, he still does damage. But if his push had been a stronger 1-base all-in, instead of a weaker expansion push, then he could have won the game outright with that push, and a 45 food lead. If hed just expanded, gotten the extra production online from the expo, and then pushed, he would also have had an easier time winning. Before the push, he is at a 45 food lead, and right after, he is at a 35 food lead. That push is terrible, and the timing of that all-in push relative to what the terran is doing (getting an expo up but no benefit from it yet) is also terrible. If you check the replays, his opening wins him the game. He gets a 25-45 food lead just from the opening harass in nearly all of those games. Which quite obviously is amazing. But also hides the fact that that push with SCVs doesnt really need all that many SCVs, and also isnt very strong at all. The harassment opening gives him a gigantic lead. At that point, when he has 50-100% more food than his opponent, nearly anything he does is very likely to win him the game. He choses to all-in before his expo production arrives, with some SCVs, and thats not optimal. It works, because he has a huge lead already. If he decided to for example go for a 2 base battlecruiser all-in, that also wouldnt be optimal, but it would most likely still win, because he has double the food of his opponent. Man you really don't even understand the principal of putting that 2nd OC down. Because he put that 2nd OC down, even if the Z somehow manages to defend it, the Z would have had to sac his queens, drones, and his entire army to stop this push. This means that the Z in the event that he does manage to stop this push, is extremely far behind because the Terran is now sitting on double OCs and the Z lost Queens/Drones and will be WAY behind on economy. In low worker count, the double OC allows the Terran to get his economy going faster, putting him at a significant lead ahead. If you forgo the OC and make extra Marines, the Z can shut down your push and win or play really defensive since you are only on 1 base. Putting the 2nd OC down allows you to continue the game and not put you in a do or die situation. What it does is that it allows you either a push that will outright kill the Z, or you will trade favorably with the Z since he will have to use drones and queens to defend against this kind of a push. | ||
iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On February 15 2011 04:22 morimacil wrote: Here is a different comparison that might be easier to see: Imagine you make a rax, with a tech lab on it, start researching stim, and then push to arrive at his base when its half way done. It would be much stronger to either not get stim, and push with more stuff, or wait a little, and push to arrive there once stim is done. And again, ofc, if you are at a 30 food lead, you can probably afford to push and arrive at his base when stim is half done, and still do a ton of damage, but that doesnt make it optimal. Oh I fully understand your point. There's a reason I push when I push though. I have constant sight of their nat/main usually. It's not a random push, it's a timing push. It's timed before mutas, before bling speed, before roach speed, before infestors. It's timed to hit when, in my mind, zergs are weakest. Right at lair tech finishing they're rushing to get upgrades and mutas out. Personal experience and timing is why I go when I go. Harassing like that, and then sitting back to expo and macro up is never safe to me in TvZ. One badly microed battle and you're down, and they got the muta flock up. The push hits, as most zergs muta, when zergs are saving for the muta flock to pop. By sniping queens you delay that big ball by a bit by avoiding an injection cycle. This isn't like a just started using strategy. I've worked it out over 40-50 TvZ games just to get it to the point it's at now. The push is meant to make the larva be spent on something BUT mutas, which you will destroy. Personally, what zerg is going to muta with 4-5 vikings and marines on the field with NO scouting of my natural (hasn't happened yet with hellion map control) So I fully understand your point I could make it more of an all in, but in the event of an army trade -- I'm ahead. 2 OC's, two bases, open 1-1-1 tech path, and I'll be damned if I didn't kill 1-2 more queens. | ||
andykim5
United States4 Posts
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
Never tried on steppes, so I can't say. It could go both ways due to rush distance, the push would hit THAT much faster. If it's a map hellions aren't good on, I reactor rax, and churn marines. Fac makes it's own tech lab, and I do 3 hellions + blue flame -> reactor starport(swap with rax land it with reactor) Push with blue flames involved. Usually I elevator the blueflames, and keep tanks/marine/viking outside as a show of force to let blue flames do some dirty work. | ||
tmzu
58 Posts
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On February 15 2011 04:58 tmzu wrote: I think the main weakness of this build is that the hellions are not blue flamed. 4 regular hellions are not that scary and the push at 10 min can be taken care of with pure lings and banelings. As long as the zerg doesnt fall apart to the viking and hellion harrass. Very, very true. That's why I push when I do, before bling speed. Then it's just a matter of making those blings splatter (rhyming!) with seperate hotkey'ed tanks. Without stim, it get's hairy. But vikings eat zerglings up, especially with the scvs around. The thing is, how many zergs go bling baneling vs scouted reactor hellions? Either the roach up and delay lair, or spine up and get lair up fast. It's VERY rare to see banelings vs reactor hellion. Probably mistakes on my part pushing when I scout banelings with vikings too =/ | ||
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