On February 16 2011 07:00 TheCookieMonster wrote: Im a Z player, and I hate it. It's TOO DAMN SOLID. Stop making TvZ so easy for all the T players out there, I'm already getting whomped in this matchup!
<3 thank you for admitting it. I'm trying to get some of my zerg friends to try and back me up here, the viking harass is just annoying as hell and very, very powerful. I hear all kinds of reasons why vikings won't work. 'queens' 'mineral heavy' 'too much gas that fast'
Apparently not.
The food difference you gain from that viking timing is just ridiculous. 20 food+ in most cases...
Also 4 vikings seems to be the sweet spot for everything. 2 hits for ovie and 1 hit for drone and 4 hits for a queen. Kinda silly when you think about it :D
On February 16 2011 07:00 TheCookieMonster wrote: Im a Z player, and I hate it. It's TOO DAMN SOLID. Stop making TvZ so easy for all the T players out there, I'm already getting whomped in this matchup!
<3 thank you for admitting it. I'm trying to get some of my zerg friends to try and back me up here, the viking harass is just annoying as hell and very, very powerful. I hear all kinds of reasons why vikings won't work. 'queens' 'mineral heavy' 'too much gas that fast'
Apparently not.
The food difference you gain from that viking timing is just ridiculous. 20 food+ in most cases...
Also 4 vikings seems to be the sweet spot for everything. 2 hits for ovie and 1 hit for drone and 4 hits for a queen. Kinda silly when you think about it :D
Silly, or for once can I get some half decent credit for a bit of an abusive unit use? lol Those 4 vikings are just dirty!
I've watched pretty much all of your replays and this is definitely something I'm going to try against my Zerg opponents, being that, at the moment, I'm really struggling in this match up, particularly.
I'm only Silver, so this will take some practice, but thanks, and either way, I'll be back with problems, replays, and gratitude.
I think I can make this much stronger. I'll post a replay of my version of the build later or actually probably just email it to you if you want (Jeff).
Yeah, I'm with you Munky. I really like the idea of the early harass though. I love the OL hunting. I do it in my games but with just one viking. I can see real potential for blue flames and thors as well as all kinds of other transitions. Great early harass and dropping the vikings for some nice ground damage is great too. I saw a version of this a long time ago by some pro on scrap station and it was the first time that I had seen medivacs transporting vikings.
Its been a lot of replays I've seen from some high level TL posters with Jeff always being the guy they always beat up and post with, and I got to say I've always rooted for him! I'm excited with where this strategy is going as I have been playing with reactor hellion openings at a mid diamond level. Watching the replays now!
...1 base? I expo at 7-8 minutes. I push at 10. I have 2 bases by the time I leave and do enough damage that I could transition to mass scvs and win most times.
By having the 2nd CC in base for the first 2-3 scvs, you have successfully over saturated your main, to transfer 10 or so, and pull 10 or so for the push. You can afford it because of mules and staying on 1-1-1 you can afford scvs/depots/marines/tanks/vikings/medic. All of em without issue.
Seriously, if you expo at 8 minutes, and take 10 SCVs with you to the push, unless it does a HUGE amount of damage, you are going to lose. Your build is basically a 1 base all-in, that gets an expo for no really good reason. You should either focus on getting the most possible units for damage from 1 base, in which case more marines for example, would be superior to more SCVs, OR instead, focus on getting an expansion up, and then once you get extra income, and thus extra production from the expo, push with that.
In your case, the expo serves no purpose. If you fail to do damage, since you sacrificed 3/4th of your SCVs, you are still dead, despite having an expo, because you are now way way behind in economy. If you do do damage, then great. But since you sacced 3/4th of your SCVs, you still have to do a ton of damage, so its basically an all-in. So if you didnt expand, you could probably have done even more damage instead.
I don't know if anyone else posted this, but the only time 10 scvs is 3/4ths of my scvs is when i have 14, and when I have 14 scvs my barracks isnt even finished, so... ya I'm lost.
Also, just to emphasize the point I'm trying to make (which is that 10 scvs is not all in...), if I expand at 7 minutes, by the 10minute mark I'm gonna have what, 40 scvs? so pulling 10 of them while yes it will hurt my economy, it will hurt his too, because any time you push a zerg in TvZ, the pressure forces the zerg to turn more larva in to units OTHER than drones (than they normally would have). Not to mention, the fact that he is applying pressure with vikings and hellions will ALSO force the zerg to make more lings / spines / whatever else, and NOT drones. Combine everything together, and I'd say that pulling 10 scvs on autorepair is worth it, it makes your army put that much more pressure on the zerg.
With that said, I like the build, I might try it, it's also good to see a build that has potential on scrapstation, dear god I hate TvZ on crapstation.
edit:. I don't mean for this post to seem aggressive toward morimacil. In fact, I think you may have misread the original post morimacil, because there is a part where jeff suggests that you CAN modify the build for an all in, if you want, in which case he suggested you pull 3/4 your SCVs. This is the only part of the post in which jeff suggests you pull 3/4 your SCVs, and he even kindly admits that it IS an all in.
this works pretty well, ive been experiementing with it actually since mid beta. unfortunately zergs are more than capable of dealing with this build cost effectively, however vs certain playstyles this can be absolutely devastating if Z is caught offguard.
On February 17 2011 12:29 Antisocialmunky wrote: I think I can make this much stronger. I'll post a replay of my version of the build later or actually probably just email it to you if you want (Jeff).
I do a drop + 2 vikings -> 4 viking harass and 2-2-1 2 base push 2 minutes later with blue flames, siege, 6+ vikings, marines, stim, 2-3 more medics, like 3-4 tanks and a slew of hellions and still pull scvs. After the drop and harass I hellion scoot around the map to roast some drones.
I hit about the first time you repel mutas. This has become my general TvZ strat, since 2-2-1 marine mara tank hellion viking just seems to be brutal and hard hitting.
I only use the rigid build I layed out on scrap and xel naga now, and metal if it's close spawn.
this works pretty well, ive been experiementing with it actually since mid beta. unfortunately zergs are more than capable of dealing with this build cost effectively, however vs certain playstyles this can be absolutely devastating if Z is caught offguard.
good if ur not playing in masters!
I said it before, and I'll say it again -- you're the one I got the idea of the build from. You did a triple reactor opening, and just laid to waste a zerg player. I enjoyed it and have been tinkering with it ever since.
On February 17 2011 12:29 Antisocialmunky wrote: I think I can make this much stronger. I'll post a replay of my version of the build later or actually probably just email it to you if you want (Jeff).
I do a drop + 2 vikings -> 4 viking harass and 2-2-1 2 base push 2 minutes later with blue flames, siege, 6+ vikings, marines, stim, 2-3 more medics, like 3-4 tanks and a slew of hellions and still pull scvs. After the drop and harass I hellion scoot around the map to roast some drones.
I hit about the first time you repel mutas. This has become my general TvZ strat, since 2-2-1 marine mara tank hellion viking just seems to be brutal and hard hitting.
I only use the rigid build I layed out on scrap and xel naga now, and metal if it's close spawn.
On February 17 2011 12:29 Antisocialmunky wrote: I think I can make this much stronger. I'll post a replay of my version of the build later or actually probably just email it to you if you want (Jeff).
I do a drop + 2 vikings -> 4 viking harass and 2-2-1 2 base push 2 minutes later with blue flames, siege, 6+ vikings, marines, stim, 2-3 more medics, like 3-4 tanks and a slew of hellions and still pull scvs. After the drop and harass I hellion scoot around the map to roast some drones.
I hit about the first time you repel mutas. This has become my general TvZ strat, since 2-2-1 marine mara tank hellion viking just seems to be brutal and hard hitting.
I only use the rigid build I layed out on scrap and xel naga now, and metal if it's close spawn.
This was in the GSL at one point on Scrap Station with 2 or 3 hellions and more vikings with a ton of marines, I'm glad someone found the same idea and is putting it to use since I have never seen anyone else use this sweet idea! There is also the possibility with this build that you could go for more vikings and get an early +1 armor (which allows vikings to counter mutas very well) and only reveal 4, and if he comes out with mutas you have 8-10 and can just go roll over his overlords :D
Hi, how to defend baneling bust with this BO? This build is amazing but im loosing so often to baneling bust, and i have no idea how to defend it. Im talking about situation when all my reactors are outside of my wall and my wall is pretty weak. What should i do? Thx for nice BO JeffReY!
I am still getting hang of all the micromanagement. In fact it's been quite some time since I've done this build I figured I'd try it out for the hell of it without practice. It feels quite natural.
Other than the 2 Vikings accidentally left behind during the final push, could you please critique this high diamond game? What are some things I did well, and what are some things that I could have done better?
EDIT: I've playfully titled this build as "ReactOr Not" as the Z usually reacts to this build in the WRONG way. In this game, that reaction was roaches.
On February 19 2011 02:46 DaNom wrote: Hi, how to defend baneling bust with this BO? This build is amazing but im loosing so often to baneling bust, and i have no idea how to defend it. Im talking about situation when all my reactors are outside of my wall and my wall is pretty weak. What should i do? Thx for nice BO JeffReY!
Is it 1 base or 2 base bbust?
If 1 base -- land port and fac and rax ALL at your wall, and if you must forgo a reactor on something, do so. Usually you should be able to stop 1 scv + 2 marines and make a rax to double rax + fac wall, and still reactor port viking.
Personally, if they 1 base bbust, I get blue flames and vikings. They have NOTHING to transition too. Even if they get in, the hellions will dominate the zerglings. Just kill every overlord, then drop and kill the queens and drones.
Abuse the fact they didn't FE, and just thicken up your wall and win easily.
If it's 2 base busting, hellion heavy, with tanks at your expo with bunkers until you push should suffice. Hotkey tanks separate to focus fire down banes (I still have trouble with it, so don't stress). The key to a sling/bling user, well facing one, with hellions is to shoot and scoot all over the map. No amount of slings will chase 4+ hellions, just due to the fact you can have 2 shoot, 2 scoot, 2 shoot 2 scoot and just force them into lines of lings and roast roast roast them.
If you see a zerg FE and go sling bling heavy, no roach or muta, I'd get blue flame, a second factory, and start getting marauders tanks hellions.
Rukkas -- will watch today/tonight and post/pm you
K ruk --- first off I suggest landing rax with reactor right away. Beyond the obvious no 3 depots at once!!! Gotta get one at like 20-21 when fac and rax are both getting built/reactored respectively. Then again at 30 or so between the two hellion sets.
After 4 hellions, swap port with factory. You need vikings more than hellions, although he did lose all his lings. If you saw roaches, hellions might end up sour for you. 4 hellions -> 4 vikings
If you want to FE, do it as the factory builds at 20 or so, then delay the port by JUST a bit, but have 2 OCs in base, and still able to 4 hellion -> 4 viking. Don't swap rax with port. You want rax churning out marines, that's your true DPS and money maker.
All overlords clumped at his main, with none on the rim!!! That's when you drop down in shadows, all 4 vikings, and go in and kill the queen -> lift and kill every OL. No way other queen can get there in time.
LOL nvm don't mind that -- you did it. Good job, that's where they rage. 1 more hit on that last OL!! Let that viking die for him being at 51/20 HAHAHA.
If you land expo, send scvs right away! You've had to had cut scvs. At that time, with an earlier CC you should be about 50 or so, to pull 10-12 scvs, not just 6.
And 200 total energy on CCs use that mules dude at the end
On February 19 2011 08:38 iAmJeffReY wrote: K ruk --- first off I suggest landing rax with reactor right away. Beyond the obvious no 3 depots at once!!! Gotta get one at like 20-21 when fac and rax are both getting built/reactored respectively. Then again at 30 or so between the two hellion sets.
After 4 hellions, swap port with factory. You need vikings more than hellions, although he did lose all his lings. If you saw roaches, hellions might end up sour for you. 4 hellions -> 4 vikings
If you want to FE, do it as the factory builds at 20 or so, then delay the port by JUST a bit, but have 2 OCs in base, and still able to 4 hellion -> 4 viking. Don't swap rax with port. You want rax churning out marines, that's your true DPS and money maker.
All overlords clumped at his main, with none on the rim!!! That's when you drop down in shadows, all 4 vikings, and go in and kill the queen -> lift and kill every OL. No way other queen can get there in time.
LOL nvm don't mind that -- you did it. Good job, that's where they rage. 1 more hit on that last OL!! Let that viking die for him being at 51/20 HAHAHA.
If you land expo, send scvs right away! You've had to had cut scvs. At that time, with an earlier CC you should be about 50 or so, to pull 10-12 scvs, not just 6.
And 200 total energy on CCs use that mules dude at the end
' Thanks for that sweet critique! You pointed out some things I didn't even notice, such as cutting at 4 hellion (enough for them to turn roach). It's amazing that I can make this push even beefier by adding more badass viking. I'm still becoming comfortable with this build, so the saturation of natural was difficult. And I didn't realize that Queens need a lot of hits to kill the Vikings, so I could have taken out so many more OL. I will watch some more of your replays to refine my timings, but doing the build "blind" without knowing the exact order of production I think I did a pretty good job.
I did a few games against my friend and on ladder. When I pushed at 10:00 I stomp Z every time, but any time I push later in favor of a larger army, it's about 50/50. That 10 minute timing is a necessity.
Very much so. It's before mutas are able to engage or harass, and when most zergs take a third. After a two prong harass, most assume it's over after making 4 queens and just drone up hard to get a muta ball out and an easy third.
If you reactor rax after landing from fac, and keep it making marines, you'll have a MUCH bigger push. And pull more scvs for auto repair.
It's really a 2 base timing attack, to be honest. A very solid army at a very solid time, with as much changing and variations as you want