[D]TvZ 1-1-1 FE Double Reactor push - Page 3
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Bonkerz
United States831 Posts
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Penatronic
150 Posts
Also, to everyone saying this is just a "bad all in"... I'm so confused, what are you thinking? He pushes at a time that he avoids Zerg's optimum tech/units, and that he's seriously set them back with harass, not because it's just an all in... If he just built up more off the expo and let the Zerg recover/get his tech up, he's lost the awesome momentum he gained. The argument that "an all in with an extra oc is a bad all in" is retarded because a build with an early extra oc ISN'T AN ALL IN. Why is it deemed an all in if he pulls 10 scv? (which by the way isn't a 3/4 of His scv like someone kept saying). He is well enough ahead that 10 scvs does not even put him close to crtitically behind. All in is when you lose a very high percentage of games if your cheesy timing push doesn't kill them outright... He can easily survive losing his entire push because he has the expo going already... Not even close to an all in..... | ||
Black Gun
Germany4482 Posts
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morimacil
France921 Posts
It seems that if you moved out your orbital right at the time its finished, as you are harassing with your vikings, It would still be perfectly safe, but begin to pay off for itself much faster. Then, by for example delaying siege a little, so that it gets upgraded right as your push is about to hit the zerg, instead of 30 seconds to a minute before you actually go for your push, you could squeeze in an extra factory, and perhaps a rax or 2. And then push at around the same time you do now, but this time with an actual benefit from your second base, thus a much stronger push that doesnt need you to pull SCVs. | ||
OmNomSpy
United States68 Posts
On February 15 2011 01:28 iAmJeffReY wrote: Around this time with 3-4 hellions on the field at towers, and vikings taking out OL scouting spots by your ledges/edges/sides, you have almost COMPLETE map control. Reactor hellion openings do not give you automatic map control. The vikings are a nice touch, but since you build 4 of them you have to kill at least 8 overlords to make it worth your while. Another thing, in most of your replays your opponent went muta, which is not the correct decision given 4 and possibly more vikings in the air. | ||
iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On February 15 2011 08:05 OmNomSpy wrote: Reactor hellion openings do not give you automatic map control. The vikings are a nice touch, but since you build 4 of them you have to kill at least 8 overlords to make it worth your while. Another thing, in most of your replays your opponent went muta, which is not the correct decision given 4 and possibly more vikings in the air. Exactly why I go for queens and drones, and then drop them to use in battle. The vikings more than make up for themselves in havoc they cause. I tend to think as also what is the zerg building to prevent a viking harass? Evo chamber sometimes, and spores. Another queen. A multitude of things NOT on their muta sling bling tech path. very interesting build. i wonder though how it holds its ground against early roach pressure.... I haven't faced any full on 7 roach rushes, but on the maps I run it on, it usually doesn't do enough damage that I can't defend myself with a bunker. I keep tabs on scouting for as long as I can. You can gauge by the first two hellions by how many drones are out, slings speed or not, how many slings, etc to get a SEMI decent idea when/if roaches are coming. Like a lot of zerg 1 base roach rush on LT, and that's not a map I run this on at all. Maybe blue flame -> viking -> blue flame drops but never hellions on LT because of easy spines, and short rush distances sometimes. But usually, by the the time I have 2 hellions out, I'll see no expo if roaches are on the way to bunker up and prepare to repair (haha rhyming again) Personally, I feel against this push unless they stay tier1 roach sling, and pull drones + queens roaches are not the answer at all to this. Tanks with siege, the marine dps with viking and hellions, all 4 outrange so if you attack stop attack stop spam scvs you can fuck up zerg focus fire sometimes (I'm pretty sure you're way better than me, but just a point) Attack with scvs, then keep spamming stop until they reposition roaches and focus fire, then attack again. The reason I feel roaches don't do the job is because they take what? 2 supply. Need to be popped on injection cycles to count this size of a push. Very expensive unit, so if they FE, they won't have more than 2 queens (usually) to defend 2-4 vikings up and down on the field. I can pick more overlords off because of less money to go around because of roaches. Now again, I've never done this against a 5/7RR. FE roaches, yes. And I seem to just roll over it. Fast infestors, and just had to delay the push for another 2 tanks. One thing that seems consistent, is that you always seem to get siege tech way before your push actually hits, and you expand when you push, not when you viking harass. It seems that if you moved out your orbital right at the time its finished, as you are harassing with your vikings, It would still be perfectly safe, but begin to pay off for itself much faster. Then, by for example delaying siege a little, so that it gets upgraded right as your push is about to hit the zerg, instead of 30 seconds to a minute before you actually go for your push, you could squeeze in an extra factory, and perhaps a rax or 2. And then push at around the same time you do now, but this time with an actual benefit from your second base, thus a much stronger push that doesnt need you to pull SCVs. I was NEVER a hellion user in all my sc2. I'm just getting comfortable microing them against slings, so I felt safer dropping the expo later. The better my timings and control get the earlier I'm expoing, and now going 5 viking 1 medic 3 tanks 4 hellions 14-15 marines and 12 scvs because I have a couple more units at a slightly later time but I just hit harder at about 10 minutes, where I then drop two more barracks as I push out. I feel a momentum going in this strategy personally. From the hellion pokes to the viking pokes I always feel safe and never like in trouble. The push comes and I get to their base 9/10 unseen because of the constant harassing + sending hellions before rest of units to clear towers. Anyone better than I, give reactor viking opening a try. Don't use this build if you don't want, it's just a very quick transition. Try it on some zerg friends. It infuriates them to be supply capped, and stripped of mutas and to get a ball that size. I've been pondering on getting blue flame instead of siege and going with 2-3 unsiege tanks, but when port is done I make a medic to drop 2 hellions 4 marines, then swap reactor with the factory to get blue flame, because then I can get 2 vikings to go OL hunt / drop and snipe a queen as I drop harass another area. Also, by delaying the swap you get 2 more hellions so 4-6 going around hitting in and out depending on losses. It's a very psychologically strong feeling strategy to me. I get frustrated hearing YOU'RE UNDER ATTACK! Seeing that red supply number. Not having overlords all over the map to know where I am and when I went. Not having safe feeling to macro up drones hard. Constantly having to defend etc The reasoning behind the early Vikings is not only to kill Overlords. If the only use of Viking was to kill its cost in Overlords, then perhaps your statement would be correct. However, the Vikings serve an additional use during the 10:00 push, when all Vikings join together with the primary army and land. Their ground DPS is incredibly strong and continues to pay back their cost in damage dealt to Zerg's army and economy. As someone else mentioned, Four Vikings one-shot drones, which means that you can use them pre-battle to destroy lone queens and then harass undefended mineral lines. Then when defense comes, you can lift off and resume Overlord hunting. Much better worded than I. Thank you | ||
RukKus
United States197 Posts
On February 15 2011 08:05 OmNomSpy wrote: Reactor hellion openings do not give you automatic map control. The vikings are a nice touch, but since you build 4 of them you have to kill at least 8 overlords to make it worth your while. Another thing, in most of your replays your opponent went muta, which is not the correct decision given 4 and possibly more vikings in the air. The reasoning behind the early Vikings is not only to kill Overlords. If the only use of Viking was to kill its cost in Overlords, then perhaps your statement would be correct. However, the Vikings serve an additional use during the 10:00 push, when all Vikings join together with the primary army and land. Their ground DPS is incredibly strong and continues to pay back their cost in damage dealt to Zerg's army and economy. As someone else mentioned, Four Vikings one-shot drones, which means that you can use them pre-battle to destroy lone queens and then harass undefended mineral lines. Then when defense comes, you can lift off and resume Overlord hunting. | ||
Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
On February 15 2011 04:58 tmzu wrote: I think the main weakness of this build is that the hellions are not blue flamed. 4 regular hellions are not that scary and the push at 10 min can be taken care of with pure lings and banelings. As long as the zerg doesnt fall apart to the viking and hellion harrass. My feeling has always been that dropship + hellions is just a really nice way of saying: "You are not allowed to drone up until you get enough defenses." | ||
iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
My macro is still crap, but this game I mix in a double factory and still harass a bit. Harassing good zergs is a LOT harder. Both games are 2 or so minutes delayed of a push but still hitting right as mutas pop and the 5 viking marine combo forces engagements and keeps from sniping. | ||
Deemon
10 Posts
User was banned for this post. | ||
iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On February 15 2011 10:54 Deemon wrote: this strat i scomplete shit. Jeff, I am a 3400 master terran, and I will tell you, this doesnt work. YOu dont have the eco to support. and also, what is the fucking point of a CC if u dont expand. I dont understand how you got to masters with this build, but I swear, I bet as zerg, (my worst race), i could crush you. U have no girlfriend, no life, and no fucking sc2 skill. FUCK U lol okay. Well since it's been and still is working with little tweaks here and there, I'm going to say you're wrong. On all accounts that is! I'd love to see your 3400 master account. I'm not sure 12 year olds can get that many points. Good post though, I enjoy and understand your points. | ||
Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
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darkzuka
Peru88 Posts
-Another thing is.. the only hardcounter for this, its baneling bust, whit a lot of zerlings, rigth?? Well some zerg just won me whit that... u.u cuz baneling>marine, and theng speedling>tank, or maybe its just my bad micro... | ||
Batcha
Bosnia-Herzegovina72 Posts
Im a platinoob so if you dont mind answering a few questions: 1) You sometimes build the CC very early (at the time you build the factory) and sometimes you make it much later. Is that decision affected by something you scout or were you just "winging" it? Also, which option would be considered more "standard" ? 2) Would skipping the bunker rush completely have a big impact on how this strat rolls out? 3) How do you play against zergs who go FE->banelings? | ||
iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
-Another thing is.. the only hardcounter for this, its baneling bust, whit a lot of zerlings, rigth?? Well some zerg just won me whit that... u.u cuz baneling>marine, and theng speedling>tank, or maybe its just my bad micro... No, with hellions you should see that coming a mile away, and in that case you triple thick your wall with barracks factory and starport. I'd then get out blue flame hellions personally, and just run amuck with blue flames as banes won't have speed. The reason I say banelings counter it is you're in a ball most of the time with this push, and banelings obviously rape balls of units. Micro it out a bit and you'll still having your vikings, medic, tanks, and a slew of marines left to combat the zerg. Nice build! Im a platinoob so if you dont mind answering a few questions: 1) You sometimes build the CC very early (at the time you build the factory) and sometimes you make it much later. Is that decision affected by something you scout or were you just "winging" it? Also, which option would be considered more "standard" ? 2) Would skipping the bunker rush completely have a big impact on how this strat rolls out? 3) How do you play against zergs who go FE->banelings? 1- Any late CC was my old rendition. I'm still working it out myself. The two games against synthetiq are how I'm running it now, against more zergs on different maps. It's still based on a hellion harass, but before I swap for vikings I make 1 medic, then 2 vikings to go OL harass their ring, to make my drop unseen. Land 2 vikings, and hit with 2 vikings on the ground and marine hellion medic combo drop. My standard, to make it not at all an all in, is the 22 CC in base when reactors are building/fac building. 2- I bunker rush only when I get a chance. I always try, because not every zerg moves overlords around to spot well. Even at mid master level they still don't. Or if I see a late 15 hatch, and even later 16 pool, I'll have one scv make two bunkers to block the ramp and 3 marine rush to force all kinds of slings/drones/spines. And yes, it would just mean an earlier factory, earlier 2 hellions etc. I like to make zergs pull drones for no reason. Check the games vs synthetiq. I end up with my SCVs because he has to cut drones to get slings out faster. 3- If they FE-> banelings, I triple thick wall and go blue flames + mass vikings. Banelings = late lair. Banelings = no bane speed. Blue flames > banes (with micro) and slings no contest. Vikings then rule the air and stop ALL OLs from being alive. With 6+ vikings, you can land and murder his queens and entire drone line without losing a thing. tier 1 bane busts seem very all in, and easily stopped by making your wall be able to be blocked in by 3 buildings. You'll see on each map I build a specific way so that incase of banelings, I can leave CC in base, and thicken up my wall. its a good build, i was using it. But i have some problems =/!!!! if i dont do much damage using the hellions, killing OL, its pretty bad idea go and try to kill him e.e True, and untrue. It depends on how the zerg reacts. Does he just drone up and take a third after double failed harass? If so, press his balls off and win after failing two harasses and enjoy the easy win. If he amasses an army, then you're in for it. If so, viking harass for a LONG time. Keep them making queens, spores, OLs, anything but units. | ||
morimacil
France921 Posts
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
I used to do a 1-1 fe into 3-1-1 marine tank pushes. It's not that it's bad, I beat a few decent zergs with it, it's just I way prefer the constant harass into that big ball push. With delaying the push, there's about no way to stop mutas from popping. However, with 5-7 mutas, what's he going to harass and hurt that he won't die even faster to the push. The vikings in the air force mutas to take bait and not run around sniping tanks + give you vision like in TvT. I'm loving the transition into a 2-2-1 push after the initial push with blue flames, siege tanks, vikings, and marines. It's so dirty. Because, I'll admit, I'm like 3-2 vs synthetiq. When I don't run this build, he's WAY better than me, 100% better IMO. It's just the vikings so fuck up zergs mentally. The up and down harass is just so fun and easy to do. Not to mention my paltry 100 apm is now about 130 when I TvZ using this build. It's making me a better player and really understand timings and placement. | ||
CookieMaker
Canada880 Posts
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On February 16 2011 07:00 TheCookieMonster wrote: Im a Z player, and I hate it. It's TOO DAMN SOLID. Stop making TvZ so easy for all the T players out there, I'm already getting whomped in this matchup! <3 thank you for admitting it. I'm trying to get some of my zerg friends to try and back me up here, the viking harass is just annoying as hell and very, very powerful. I hear all kinds of reasons why vikings won't work. 'queens' 'mineral heavy' 'too much gas that fast' Apparently not. | ||
0c3LoT
Canada162 Posts
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