I could see this working in zvz, though wouldn't +1 carapace be theoretically awesome if you could get it that early, so you aren't so fragile to banelings? Thing is, your zerg opponent should be aware and able to prepare if you're massing lings off of 1base, and I have a feeling you are at risk of dying to their more standard speedling baneling timings because your own speed is considerably late, and you don't have banelings.
38 +1 Speedling push vZ vP = Evil Strike Build - Page 2
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
I could see this working in zvz, though wouldn't +1 carapace be theoretically awesome if you could get it that early, so you aren't so fragile to banelings? Thing is, your zerg opponent should be aware and able to prepare if you're massing lings off of 1base, and I have a feeling you are at risk of dying to their more standard speedling baneling timings because your own speed is considerably late, and you don't have banelings. | ||
chaopow
United States556 Posts
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zul
Germany5427 Posts
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On May 17 2011 06:24 Tobberoth wrote: Can you explain why this is auto-lose against 14/14? I would assume that with the amount of lings and +1, even if you can't outright kill him, you can delay his expansion while safely taking your own by going in with your lings and scare him. Once your hatch is down and you have droned a bit, keep building lings until you see him take his expo, transitioning into roach if you see any banelings. While he might be slighty ahead in drones, since you're keeping him on one base, he'll just be oversaturated until his hatch completes and as long as your completes a fair bit before his, you should be in the lead. 14/14 has a better economy than you, and they get speed before you, so you will lose ALL MAP PRESENCE (or all your zerglings, your choice) because you can't run away from a fight. Also you're getting +1 attacks while he's getting banelings, and trying to micro lings against banelings without any banelings of your own is a terrifying thing to try and do. Unlike hatch first, which handles the speedling timing by having a better economy to fall back on and more larva that they can spend pumping lings while they wait for their own timings to make them safe again, you have no extra econ to outproduce lings with. Sure, you'll win games at low level because players don't have good macro while also microing ling battles, but that doesn't make it a good build. Also, taldarim altar isn't a FE map in ZVZ - wide chokes means you NEED speedlings, you can't just get roaches out and secure your expo + ramp. Maps where you spawn in close air positions (even on shakuras top-top or bottom-bottom positions) the other zerg will be aware that you're doing an early pool because your second overlord doesn't come out (well, it comes out super late. Late enough that if they know to look for that tell, they'll drop their pool instantly.) He shouldn't be doing hatch first once he sees that. Other maps, a prospective hatch first zerg should be drone scouting early, because 7-9 pools are even more dangerous than this build. I'm not sure of the timing, but on a medium-large map, it looks like a hatch first build could hold your initial lings off in time, and have either banelings or roach-blocks easily by the time your speed and +1 finish. | ||
Mithrandir
United States99 Posts
Mithrandir.898 | ||
GTo7_Panda
Germany68 Posts
As I said, Blings are the absolute counter to this build. Also, this is not a good build. It is not solid or valid, but it is fun and it works at a surprisingly high percentage, even at highdia and lowmaster. But I don´t think this is good on very high level, I would agree with you^^ but for the 98% of players out there... It might be a fun way to play their swarm. @ Mithrandir: No, I won´t play against you if your standard includes banelings at any point:p My build relies on surprise and a high possibility of a oppponent´s FE. No question that blings own this, see my OP. I would play against you if you would play as Protoss, correct forcefielding shouldn´t be a problem. I have time tomorrow:D | ||
tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
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ZeromuS
Canada13372 Posts
On May 17 2011 06:42 tehemperorer wrote: Yeah the question I asked was because of my PvZ DT build that can easily be switched... If I see the single base Zerg and early evo chamber I will simply make a temp archives instead of DShrine and go for a single archon and templar/cannon tech... Push out the lings with archon/zeal then expand and place cannons. I can get an archon and about 4 zeals at around 6 minutes, then expand safely and load up on sentries, or pull from gas and load on zeals. Interesting Panda thanks for posting this just to be fair I think that using gas to tech to an archon that fast is bad since any cannons you get up won't survive against lings too long and the mineral cost of the zealots and gateways delays your expo. better to just use dts to block a gap in a wall and take map control if you open Templar into arching at all off one base | ||
FMJ
United States169 Posts
On May 17 2011 05:29 Communism wrote: this timing can break 5 sentries 1 zealot if you dont have perfect micro By perfect micro do you mean the ability to F-click every 15 seconds? | ||
jazzbassmatt
United States566 Posts
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FinestHour
United States18466 Posts
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closey
Hong Kong272 Posts
Panda evil strike, nemesis of the 4gate! | ||
Mithrandir
United States99 Posts
On May 17 2011 06:42 GTo7_Panda wrote: @ sylverfyre: I saw many zergs going for speedling expand on taldarim altar, which is autoloss against my build:D As I said, Blings are the absolute counter to this build. Also, this is not a good build. It is not solid or valid, but it is fun and it works at a surprisingly high percentage, even at highdia and lowmaster. But I don´t think this is good on very high level, I would agree with you^^ but for the 98% of players out there... It might be a fun way to play their swarm. @ Mithrandir: No, I won´t play against you if your standard includes banelings at any point:p My build relies on surprise and a high possibility of a oppponent´s FE. No question that blings own this, see my OP. I would play against you if you would play as Protoss, correct forcefielding shouldn´t be a problem. I have time tomorrow:D I will play you without banelings then. Roaches also destroy this build. And any protoss opening destroys this as well. | ||
emc
United States3088 Posts
Lings with 0 upgrades will trade 1 zealot for about 2 1/2 lings, with +1 you trade 1 zealot for 1 ling, a very cost efficient trade, the build works well if you add in banelings as well. Your build doesn't seem very efficient though and is more like an all-in. My build that I've been using exclusively against protoss also gets +1 and speed at around 6 minutes. 14 gas 15 pool 15 evo 15 overlord @100 gas, +1 15 queen 17, 18 lings 19 hatch @100 gas speed, remove 2 drones from gas. That 1 drone on gas can do a lot for you, he can either get you +1 armor, a baneling nest or a lair depending on what you need. it's a pretty safe build, but reveals a lot of information because their initial scouting probe will see the evo drop during the pool building. The build is flexible, you can do all-ins with ling/bane against 3 gate sentry expand or even roach/ling pressure is extremely strong. The build also transitions well into economy, I'll usually stick with my 4 initial lings while droning very heavily. Once the +1 and speed kicks in, I will make a round of lings for map control and continue droning. You don't need to all-in as the ling only production allows you to stick to minerals only after getting +1 and speed, so you can easily take a 3rd hatch or drone strongly. It doesn't seem very smart to get lings THEN expand, its much better to play reactive and economy based otherwise you will be WAY behind. | ||
Cocoba
Canada352 Posts
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vol_
Australia1608 Posts
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epikAnglory
United States1120 Posts
On May 17 2011 05:27 ionlyplayPROtoss wrote: Why the hell do you waste people's time with this. a zealot a wall and 8 sentries kills this SO hard. lol 8 Sentries at 6:15, thats about when you take your expansion with ~5 Sentries and a Zealot | ||
Yoshi Kirishima
United States10149 Posts
The "Crazy" variation sounds even more fun @SC2TheDroid It's called scouting, you should be able to figure out whether or not the Protoss is getting DTs. After some information and deduction, or after none at all, you should put down a spore crawler obviously. Also, how does he get down his expo and 6 gate if you have 38 lings against DTs? The DTs can't defend everything. They can sit in the mineral line sure but with good micro you can snipe some probes and harass the Nexus and other buildings on the low ground, considering you can see where the DTs are and a sufficient number of DTs would mean he is using a shit ton of gas. Archons can be scary but by then you should have already droned up and have better tech coming. Blink is way too far in the midgame... a Toss isn't going to be able to get that with enough stalkers in time before the Zerg can drone back up. Also his 6 gate is going to be seriously delayed if he went for early DT. | ||
Smeik
Germany32 Posts
He could go dt, he could at 2 more gateways and kill you or stargate pressure, just scout :D | ||
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