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On May 18 2011 08:31 michaelhasanalias wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 05:29 Communism wrote:On May 17 2011 05:27 ionlyplayPROtoss wrote: Why the hell do you waste people's time with this. a zealot a wall and 8 sentries kills this SO hard. Im not sure if things have changed since the patch, but there is NO way that prepatch you could get 8 sentries by 6:15... no way unless you are an insane computer you can have 5 max this timing can break 5 sentries 1 zealot if you dont have perfect micro 30 probes, 1 zealot, 8 sentries at 6:15, with 500 in the bank to put down a pylon/nexus. Also I'm not sure why you'd say "Well I have no idea about the new patch but..." no one plays 1.3.2 now. The +1 attack timing is really interesting vs. zerg who opens 15hatch, but because of the difficulty in denying scouting against the initial lings, I'm curious how you plan to hide that super-early evolution chamber. Against Protoss this is very easy to stop except perhaps at low levels, but against zerg, even though it's a low level strategy, there could be some merit hidden in here a quick +1 attack. The issue is that because you're hitting so late, you could wall with evo chamber/roaches or something similar at the nat, and all those speedlings will just get laughed to death. I personally feel like any build that gets an evo chamber and an upgrade before units is destined for failure because of the gaping hole you leave yourself vulnerable to attack. If your opponent does any kind of early ling aggression, you're dead. If he dos any kind of roach play, your attack will fail, and if he just drones and spines up for some goofy 2-base muta, your attack is likely to also do minimal damage.
I agree. Although interesting, the timings are all wrong. It hits so late that it loses to any sort of tech (roaches/banelings) or even spine crawlers with queens blocking the ramp. The only thing it beats is roaches that are out of position or pure speedlings.
And, no sane zerg would still be 100% speedlings by the time this attack hits.
In all, I think it is a horrible all-in and I'm trying to play the OP to show why it doesn't work. But he is on Europe and I'm on NA so I don't think I'll be able to play him.
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If everyone posted a shit build that worked only up to gold level, this forum would be flooded with garbage threads like this.
Plenty of people have explained to you why this is an awful build, and some of them have been nice about it.
I never doubt this is an awfull build. Did I? The thing is, it works, atleast at diamond/low master level, and so I shared it. If it helps anyone having more fun or winning some games, BAM!, the goal of the thread is reached. You are simply wrong when you say it works only up to gold level, excuse me. Evidence is against you.
And IMO this is not a horrible Allin. Yeah, it´s horrible against active scouting enemys, but when they make mistakes, you gain the element of surprise. And there are much mistakes on the Ladder (again, speaking for EU, highdia - low master), so posting this BO is not useless in my opinion.
Let´s sum it up:
It´s an all-in that is bad/autloose against scouting/competent enemys. It punishes enemys who follow the metagame without scouting. IMO it´s fun to play. And it works above gold...
Will tag it as Funbuild, so that the unlikely following discussion has the right attitude.
Thank you guys for discussing and thinking about the build, hf playing it yourself or pwning it on ladder or whatever
Regards, Panda
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A friend of mine and I tried this build with a standard four gate for shits and giggles. We got placed masters.
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On May 18 2011 17:42 GTo7_Panda wrote: It´s an all-in that is bad/autloose against scouting/competent enemys.
I'll have to give this a shot when I play 3v3 and 4v4 with my brothers. I don't see this working out very well in 1v1 (I'm high gold) since most of my opponents can scout an opening build and counter, but no one really scouts in 3v3 and 4v4. Maybe it would even work in 2v2? I'll give it a shot if my partner starts playing sc2 again...
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On May 17 2011 05:25 tehemperorer wrote: I don't think this is cheese, but I do have a very specific question: Is the +1 really that effective at that point of the game against a zealot wall-off with warpgate tech finished and 3 gates?
Most protoss expand between 6:10 and 6:40. The OP said you have enough minerals when you strike to expand... the zerg may not really be economically ahead if they deny the expo but it's at least something.
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This could maybe punish super fast expansions, but like you said it's very scoutable. Also, I feel that terran walls or protoss ff's can completely negate this build.
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Back when I played Zerg, I used a very similar variation of this build for team games. Absolutely perfect for 2v2s and 3v3s, as +1 lings beat unupgraded lings QUITE heavily, to the point where opposing players are usually left baffled as to what hit them.
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What about a bit less lings, hide most but start an expo, cancel, ling up and then move out? with some less lings, it'll be less of an all-in and more of early push expand, and likely not be expected given the cancelled hatch. I think it'd be interesting to tweak the build to fit this. i've always been fascinated by toss expo cancel/4gate surprises and wanted something like it for zerg (just not so all in. i like macro games)
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This might sound silly but if you'r saying this is an all-in, why not bring drones as well?
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this will beat alot of early roach builds, its my go to build ZvZ
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This build is bad, and I will tell you why. [ sorry OP ]
Let's start with ZvZ:
Your BO is 11 overpool into starting +1 before you have a single zergling out.
Obviously, your build is non-standard. There are three standard builds in ZvZ.
1.) 9 pool (or early pool) Your build beats this by virtue of the opening.
2.) 14/14 Your build is going to autolose to this. My first 2 lings will run up your ramp, see that you're not mining gas, see that you have an evo chamber down, and see that you have no additional tech, and only 1 hatch. This is the most obvious 1 base ling all-in in the history of Starcraft. I will throw down a baneling nest and a-move to victory.
3.) Hatch first Your build is going to autolose here to for the same reason. A PROPER hatch first scouts around 9 supply. With the exception of the largest maps (Tal'Darim Altar) I will always scout your base before I start my hatch. When I get there, I will see 11 overpool. This tells me to plant my pool and start my gas - essentially turning my build into 14/14, which we've already established as auto-loss.
If you run into someone who wants to go hatch first without scouting, you will win by virtue of the build order.
Now: ZvP
Ask yourself: What is the standard response to early pool builds?
Because 11 overpool is going to look a lot like 9 pool when Toss scouts it. If he's trying to forge expand, he'll fully wall his natural, and make 2-4 cannons.
If he's trying to 3 gate expand, or do something similar, he will likely play extra safe, taking care to make extra sentries, and he might even go so far as to add a forge to his wall and throw a cannon down at the top of his ramp.
In both of these cases, you've just auto-lost.
Standard ZvP is, once again, three-fold.
1.) 14/14 speedling expand. This expands around 21... This is, quite literally, the latest expansion you can hope to take if you don't deal some sort of early damage to the Potoss economy.
2.) 14 pool 16 hatch. More economical than 14/14, this build gets an earlier expansion, but gives up some map control.
3.) hatch first. No explanation necessary.
You could possibly make a case for early pool, but I feel like its more of a gimmick than a standard.
At any rate, all these builds have one thing in common: Expanding early and often.
If you don't plan on expanding until you have 38 lings, 15 drones, and a queen, that puts you at 36 supply when your natural starts.
Early lings or not, Protoss will be able to scout that you haven't taken your hatchery at a normal time. When Toss scouts that you haven't expanded, that literally means you have one choice: all-in.
He's going to prepare for a roach all-in.
A roach all-in is stronger than this 38 ling stuff because it's capable of breaking the Toss ramp so long as it has an overlord to spot.
In other words, its harder to defend the roach all-in.
In other words, if Toss prepares to defend the roach all-in, and you hit him with something weaker, you're screwed.
Now, all this having been said, I know that you're going to come back with
"But this is a great, fun build at the lower levels"
To this, I say: "Great. Enjoy it. But when it stops working, I hope you're ready to relearn the game, because you will have falsely inflated your rank to a point that you will not be capable of beating players who are good enough to sniff this out and shut it down"
TLDR:
Don't waste your time practicing a bad build. Learn to play correctly, and, later, after you establish some understanding of the game, start experimenting with fun timings and weird all-ins.
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I agree that this build isn't optimal, but it has the right ideas. Putting on early pressure and getting fast Speed and +1 is very strong early game, but you can't realistically do just that and expect lings to do all the work by themselves. Supplementing this with T1.5 units may make it stronger, maybe utilizing the +1 with Banelings for a bust early on, or Roaches, which Zerg usually goes for anyway. And +1 Lings with Roaches is darn hard for a Protoss to stop, and it basically denies an expansion on any non-macro map.
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I have doubts, generally 2 good forcefields will get ton of lings killed by 5 sentries (probably 10) which in time you can double forcefield again and kill another 10, then its 18 +1 zerglings vs a zealot and 5 sentries with (1?) more forcefield to block the back so you only take shield damage on the building and possibly take 10 more zerglings. That leaves the zerg with 8 + lings, 15 drones, 3 very undefended hatches and a pissed off protoss who will probably cheese something spite your efforts to break his front wall.
In ZvZ banelings nullify this 100%, even with good micro its very scoutable, you just have to notice he only has 15 drones. Build a ton of spines and banelings. Get an evo and get +1 armour roaches. Hell if you see him 1 base you just turtle up and do a 1 base infestor, they should be done in time to deal with this attack (well at least the roach wall should be able to hold until then.
I have a suggestion for this build, if you get 38 +1 lings against zerg, if you scout a turtling zerg you should cut 2 lings to get another gas and get 24 banelings worth of gas and a baneling nest to break down his hatchery (its very effective).
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Canada13372 Posts
man why would you necro this old thread :/ it died because it wasn't viable >.<
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Wow... Don´t necro guys:D Things have changed, and so did I and my attitude about this BO^^
As I said above:
This is not a viable build. If you are 100% sure your opponement will do a hatch first, you can use this build. If you are playing against a 3 Gate expand and he moves out, you can sometimes catch him on the lowground. But all this is not viable, so pls don´t discuss this build anymore. Except you found a way how to use it in a safe way, against some high level player, with some replays.
Pls don´t tell me to learn standard Zerg, because I betrayed Zerg and switched to Toss, and i will have some one year break from active playing. Anyway, thank you guys for contribution and good advice, especially Mr.Bitter!
To avoid some further postings that may aim in this direction, I learnt a few things: 1. Testing builds is important. 2. A good build handles every behaviour, ignoring skill and league of the enemy. (Kinda obvious;D) 3. I wouldn´t post a such a post in the strategy forums anymore, and if, then i would tag it with the [Q]-Tag. 4. SC2 is still fun, this build aswell, but this build doesn´t belong into this forum.
Pls read the above and gauge if adding new stuff is necessary. Thx Guys!
Huge thanks to Mr.Bitter again, he carves out in a great detailed way why you shouldn´t use my build!
Ps:
A friend of mine and I tried this build with a standard four gate for shits and giggles. We got placed masters.
I designed this build on a 2v2 Weekend, we even crushed a team with a GM on it and he flamed us:D In 2v2 this build may some place, but don´t try it versus ZT. When they go for early helions + early slings, you are dead.
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"the protoss will push, they always do" lol. us silly protoss putting on pressure, we're so fucking imba. We have the opportunity to turtle to max annnnd put on pressure. Too damn many options
i know you were probably not insinuating that, but it still sounds pretty funny.
on topic tho, i personally get really annoyed by early ling pressure, but advice for any protoss going up against this is to not move your army down the ramp completely if you know they have speed. A cancelled nexus isn't all that awful
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On July 13 2011 03:20 MrBitter wrote:
TLDR:
Don't waste your time practicing a bad build. Learn to play correctly, and, later, after you establish some understanding of the game, start experimenting with fun timings and weird all-ins. so true. my friend is in masters from 7pooling and baneling busting. i feel bad for him if he ever tries to play macro games
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@ SxYSpAz: Since I switched to Toss, I enjoy all these Options I have:D Starcraft feels so good... Now I am the pressuring guy that denies 3rd bases with a smile on his protoss face=)
on topic: Yeah, just forcefield correctly and you are fine. In theory the Zerg could drone up since you can´t move out rightaway, but I feel that a good toss will convert his economic lead into army, takes his second, and then game should be over since Zerg is behind in Tech. If he wasn´t, he had to cut drones.
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