[D] ZvP (FFE) : 11p/18h vs 15p/16h - Page 4
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
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Rumpus
United States136 Posts
I also remember hearing something along the lines of 11/18(12/19) only viable on 2 spawn only maps. I guess for the added security of whatever Protoss might try to pull on you. Just my 2 cents. | ||
TheTurk
United States732 Posts
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
A testrun I did of 15 pool 16 overlord 16 hatch (at third base location) 22 2nd queen 24 overlord 24 3rd hatch: 6:00 44 / 52 supply - 33 drones, 2 queens, 4 zerglings, 6 overlords, 2 larva. Production: 3rd hatch 100% done (morphing in that second), 3rd queen (48 / 50 done), 3 drones. 7:00 61 / 62 supply. - 45 drones, 4 zerglings, 7 overlords, 3 queens, 10 larvae. Production: 2 overlord, 8 drones. 8:30 - 83 / 94 supply. - 75 drones, 3 queens, 4 zerglings, 3 queens,lair, evo chamber done, Production: ling speed 60 / 110 done, +1 carapace 9 / 160 done, roach warren 49 / 55 Resources: 200 gas (+150 for carapace), 695 minerals (+150 for carapace) (but I made 5 more drones, so that's 250 more if you want to look at it that way). Thing is that i would never drone that long in a normal game, and around 7:00 I will sacrifice two overlords. So that changes the build quite a bit. In addition, I value creep more than two injects normally... In addition, I notice that if you delay roach warren and evo chamber just slightly, it gives you more drones earlier ... so we'd have to compare the exact second we put down roach warren and evo chamber if it should be comparable. I think it's better to just stop the testing at 7:50 or so, because that's when you normally should stop droning. Also, you would have lost some overlords at that point in time. | ||
Magus.421
France159 Posts
And i made my tests again. Here's the replay : 11 pool 18 hatch : http://terranimba.com/replay/OaJAgN2wZ6 15 pool 16 hatch : http://terranimba.com/replay/CYoZupb7wu4E7 If you watch the replay of 15p/16h, you'll see i'm pretty noob with this build order. But, even with a bad replay like these, the results are ... clear. As you can see. Despite of the fact i'm a noob with the 15p/16h, the 11p/18h is behind (with a third at 6:00, and it's worse with a third around 4:00). I don't feel i sucked with the 11p/18h, but maybe it's false. Can someone make a proper replay for the 15p/16h ? Note that's for the 11p/18h, i got 19 larvaes so i could make 19 drones. But they can't be ready for 9:00 so i just keep larvaes. Maybe i'm wrong, but i think the only scenario where 11p/18h is better is when you want to stay on 2 bases against a FFE (hatch first is better, but you can't hatch first easily against a FFE). 15p/16h is really better for a fast third. But i don't know what's going on is the protoss block your expand. @Belial : Now with 15/16 i hit 70 supply at 8:00 ^^ And i'm still pretty noob with this so i could make better. | ||
arcane1129
United States266 Posts
Edit: Are you the magus from the melee scene? | ||
Magus.421
France159 Posts
On March 08 2012 04:39 arcane1129 wrote:Edit: Are you the magus from the melee scene? I don't know what is the "melee scene", so i would answer : no ^^ | ||
arcane1129
United States266 Posts
On March 08 2012 04:43 Magus.421 wrote: I don't know what is the "melee scene", so i would answer : no ^^ Ah, there's someone named Magus that plays smash bros. melee and his youtube account was Magus421. | ||
Magus.421
France159 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Economically speaking early pool builds are just plain worse then later pool builds. The reason is simple: larvae count is not really important, money is. If you have more money and less larvae you can simply get a third quicker. If you have too much larvae and not enough money you are wasting larvae. The choice between the builds should depend on the map and early scouting information there is. For example if the map is big (and cannoning not too easy) hatch first or 14p/16h or something like it is just best. The other advantages of a quick pool (threaten pressure => force P into less ideal build, and stopping a hatch block) are of minor importance. If the map is smaller and/or the third is hard to take / very far away then I'd consider a quicker pool. Quicker pool allows you to expand in a reasonable amount of time to the natural always and will force P into a worse build. Getting it too early like at 11 is just a bit silly though as you are cutting drones without real reason then. The earliest i'd ever get it would be 12 as that's the fastest without actually cutting larvae. You delay drones a bit though and lose the drone making the pool earlier so it's definately costly in that respect. With 12 pool I also find that making the second queen straight after the first (assuming you go 4 lings) is really difficult, while going for quick queens is one of the reasons to get that early pool. Therefore I like 13 pool best on the smaller maps, later pool or hatch first on the bigger ones. | ||
Berailfor
441 Posts
And on a side note you still probably don't want to hatch first even against a gateway opening. Protoss can cancel gate and cannon rush. Not cancel gate and cannon rush with zealot pressure (that ones really good). Stalker pressure and almost all of those puts the Protoss in a better spot than if you would have just 14 pool 16 hatched. Long story short, dont 11 pool unless your gameplan is "rely on Protoss doing something stupid." which is exactly why pros don't do it. They dont plan their build around the Protoss playing risky or doing something dumb. | ||
Grayboosh
United States68 Posts
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
I dislike 11-12-13 pools because they aren't very economic, or guaranteed to do something offensively. | ||
TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
At 45:45 Stephano players two ZvP games in a row opening 11 Overpool into fast 3base, and he plays fairly standard macro from there: http://www.justin.tv/mstephano/b/310164883 | ||
arcane1129
United States266 Posts
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Berailfor
441 Posts
On March 08 2012 06:37 Grayboosh wrote: I'm confused... if 12/19 doesn't stop cheese (which I don't know if I agree with b/c I've killed a 3 pylon block with this build before)... then why are we considering 15p/16h instead of 16h/15p??? Why is the pool first necessary? What does it help you against, specifically, that a 16h would be susceptible to? You don't hatch first against Protoss going FFE unless you have no clue what your doing... | ||
barrykp
Ireland174 Posts
And if your opponent doesn't pylon block or cheese then there's no need to make lings at all - the benefit of the early pool is the faster queen + larva injects; lings can wait. If you want a fast third (against forge expand, presumably) then the 14-15p/16h is a better build since it gets the necessary resources faster. A fast third after 11p is ok; it's just less optimal. I never take quick thirds myself (I can never hold them) so it makes no difference to me. | ||
CreepyNA
United States106 Posts
9 Overlord 12 Spawning pool 16 Queen [constant inject] 18 Make 2 Extractors, 4 Zerglings, Cancel Both Extractor 19 Overlord 19 Hatchery 20 Queen [first tumor in main, then tumors in natural] 22 Overlord 28-30 Hatch (should be at 5:00) I'm mid master zerg and I been doing this build every ZvP, and my ZvP is around high masters level; Just wondering if that build is viable or if I should change to something else. On topic: I think only reason for earlier pool, is the no pylon block. With 15p/16h you can get lucky and get it down straight away, if then which you are way ahead of 11p/18h or my 12p/19h. If there is pylon block, I think it can still be ahead, but it is hard to say (depends on cancels, when pylon is put down; is it building or finished building, are there cancels?, does he put it back down, how many drones you pull to kill or how many lings). I just like my build because it is always constant. | ||
Grayboosh
United States68 Posts
On March 08 2012 07:39 Berailfor wrote: You don't hatch first against Protoss going FFE unless you have no clue what your doing... Don't bother responding unless you can address my questions. It has been stated that with a 15p/16h, if the toss pylon blocks your Nat, you can just take your third. You can do this with a 16h/15p as well, so why go pool first? What does pool first specifically protect you against? Zealot Stalker pressure?? | ||
oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
On March 08 2012 12:39 Grayboosh wrote: Don't bother responding unless you can address my questions. It has been stated that with a 15p/16h, if the toss pylon blocks your Nat, you can just take your third. You can do this with a 16h/15p as well, so why go pool first? What does pool first specifically protect you against? Zealot Stalker pressure?? It protects you from a 9 scout denying your hatchery. DRG sends his drone to the third base in that case anyway, but if that also gets blocked (which has happened), then by having your pool finished you can still get a reasonably timed 3 hatches. | ||
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