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On September 17 2012 23:49 Lightspeaker wrote: In case you're not: Hate to tell you this, but Vikings outrange Phoenix by fully 50% even with the range upgrade (and more than double the range without it). You can't dance them like you can vs Mutalisks. So what "Phoenix micro" are you talking about?
Phoenixes counter Vikings for cost. The problem is that there are usually so many more Vikings on the field, that Phoenixes are focused down by burst damage before they can do any damage themselves. Carrier leashing would help alleviate this issue, though.
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Terran got the best in WOL. They shouldn't in HOTS. Period.
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On September 18 2012 01:12 Hetz wrote: Terran got the best in WOL. They shouldn't in HOTS. Period.
Indeed, protoss got that crappy thing they call storm and zerg were left with that useless fungal.
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A mix of tanks + whatever is still very usable in many games. I know some people want mass tanks back, but it doesn't work well in SC2. We already saw it back when tanks did way more damage, and it wasn't pretty.
I have a feeling battle hellions in front and regular hellions in back lines is going to be really really good.
Widow mines have a ton of potential. They can be tweaked as needed (faster burrow?), and already they come sooner in the game. Widow mines are going to win games.
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On September 18 2012 01:12 Hetz wrote: Terran got the best in WOL. They shouldn't in HOTS. Period. Such bad logic. “Terran did really well in WoL so we should make sure they get screwed in HotS” or “we really should try to make the best game that we can for all the races.”
And yes, I feel like I’ve been screwed a little.
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Why did they want warhound in mech in the first place? Isn't mech already anti-ground? It would make more sense to have anti-air mech that get support from thors vs void rays or mutalisks.
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On September 15 2012 20:55 Wildmoon wrote: I am terran too but I am more toward making the game better not giving cool things to terran. I think terran is the most complete race in SC2 right now. It doesn't really need any groundbreaking change in its gameplay. Some buff and support unit for mech are enough.
I quote this to argue against the "terran is the most complete race" sentiment.
There is nothing 'complete' feeling about Terran except for the fact that the shit they've got works better than the shit the other races have. The Terran race as a whole has a giant gaping hole in the fact that there is no mid/high-tier unit change-overs like Protoss and Zerg have.
Allow me to give examples.
It is very common for both Protoss and Zerg compositions to change throughout the phases of any game they are in.
PvT Zealot/Stalker opener (couple of Sentries as needed) Blink Stalker midgame Zealot/Archon/HT/Colossus late game
ZvZ Zergling/Baneling opener Roach/Infestor mid game Hydra/Broodlord/Corruptor/Infestor late game
TvZ, TvT, or TvP (just replace tank with marauder) Gimmicky opener Marine Tank mid game Marine Tank Medivac late game
Zergling and Protoss have entire unit changeovers, First you start out with small numbers of units, but those quickly lose their viability, then you change over to a midgame composition that is cheap, strong, and mobile, finally, you end up in these rock-solid death ball compositions. Each phase of the game feels different from the very composition to how the armies are used.
Now... Terran... We have the Marine, the end-all-be-all of the entire Terran race. There is no such unit for the other two races for multiple reasons. Firstly, the Marine is too damn good. I have been arguing this since day 1, but it's not a balance whine, it's a design gripe. The reason the Marine is used in every MU is because Terran has no incentive to use anything else. Anything non-marine is only hurting yourself. Why would you give away the biggest advantage you've got going for you?
Secondly, what else is there? The Thor seems like it could be a good higher-tier option, but it lacks proper support the way the Medivac, Siege Tank, and Marauder can all provide support for Marines. Battle Hellions may fix this, but I am not thoroughly convinced just yet. The Ghost WAS a great option. Snipe was a little bit too powerful, but then Blizzard decided to turn snipe into an Airsoft gun rather than tune it to decent levels (something like 30+20 to light would have been fine i'm sure).
Thirdly, the Marine has never known a true counter. A counter unit in an RTS discourages the use of the targetted unit. Nothing ever discourages the use of marines... ever... Banelings? Nope. Infestors? Nope. Marines still get made by the dozens (literally, 12 at a time, watch some pro games) in face of such units. Colossus? Yeah, cool story bro... Siege tanks and Hellions? Nope, MMM all the way! NOTHING discourages Marines because nothing in the game can ever reduce their effectiveness to levels that they are no longer worth investing into. Marines are ALWAYS worth it.
Anyway, the thesis of this giant wall of text is: NO, Terran is not "more complete" than the other races, they've just been getting by on a unit that is OP as fuck and somehow people have convinced themselves that this is a good thing. Sit back and think about it. There are a lot of problems with the way Terran is designed. They need just as much help as the other races.
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On September 18 2012 02:41 Louis8k8 wrote: Why did they want warhound in mech in the first place? Isn't mech already anti-ground? It would make more sense to have anti-air mech that get support from thors vs void rays or mutalisks.
its not really anti ground when its ground cant go toe for toe with protoss robotics.
The immortals run threw them, The colosus is basically a siege tank without the need to go into siege mode... Factory units are just clearly inferior and pointless to play in the matchup. At-least with bio even if your army is inferior the fact that you can drop makes it viable. With mech you got inferior army, AND you cant do jack shit to the econ of protoss . The warhound is basically a mech marauder and its exactly what terran needs to get factory play viable .
the other way is to have unlimited spider mines /Goliaths come back and buffed siege tanks, but blizzard does not seem to want that solution.
So unless they bring back the warhound, or something like it. It will be BIO forever in TvP. Mech will show up once in a while as 1 or 2 base all in just for a small surprise tactic, but no way will it ever be feasible. There is no such thing as a macro game with mech against toss. You either All in with it or GG.
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The problem with changing how marines work would probably make them not worth making anymore because Blizzard patches are almost always 1 step forwards 2 steps back.
Besides, marines are like the only microable unit in Starcraft 2. The micro is what made Starcraft different than other RTS games, no single other game has mirrored the speed and intensity of it. Nor the satisfaction of winning battles with micro. This is why I'm against a move units, it doesn't matter if they are OP or not, they are just boring and against everything Starcraft stands for.
This is why people rooted for Boxer, because he would be totally bad ass and beat everyone with micro while he floated 2k. It was amazingly fun to watch, as opposed to the incredibly dull macro-fests this game has turned into lately, its like the whole game just took a U-Turn and is regressing, not progressing while you have idiots saying Starcraft 2 is still young when its 2 years old and the metagame changes every month.
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Russian Federation601 Posts
On September 18 2012 01:12 Hetz wrote: Terran got the best in WOL. They shouldn't in HOTS. Period. you mean ghosts? almost as useful unit as infestors or ht's? *sarcasm* t in wotl the race with 3 out of 4 worst units ingame, nuff said. if they shoudn't have something good in hots then it's just better to delete them and leave only 2 races and right now terran changes are totally scuk compared to other races
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Mine being built in the factory is dumb anyway, and at 2 supply even worse. Give the mines to hellions or create a new unit to give the mines to, give them an inventory of 3 mines like in bw, why reinvent the wheel when you have an awesome mechanic that everyone loves already. What they have to do is analyse what makes TvZ so good then adjust protoss to fit in. (if it means removing the colossus, so be it, they have an awesome opportunity to do it right now). Warpin was considered bad for the game but nowadays you'll see more and more pylon harass in the late game, which give less supply for the deathball and make more things happen on the map, so it turned out pretty well I'd say despite its negative effects (on PvP and in early game mostly).
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I like how no terran seemed to care before the warhound was removed...
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Make mines 1 supply tbh. I do not understand 2 supply at ALL.
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That reaper change is fucking retarded. It just turns TvT from a good match up to a clusterfuck, while not addressing or affecting any of the problems that Terran is facing against the other races.
Blizzard needs to fuck off and stop shoving things down our throat, things that they think would be "cool". No one was asking for Reapers to be the answer when there are fundamental problems in the later stages of the game that need to be addressed.
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On September 18 2012 00:21 Crawdad wrote:
The problem is that there are usually so many more Vikings on the field,
Which is exactly what I said at first, so I'm not entirely sure why you're trying to 'correct' me...
As long as Vikings are so effective against so much Protoss stuff and can be built so quickly (thanks to reactors) then Protoss air play just isn't going to be viable.
The other guy said something about "Phoenix micro against Vikings" which is like...what? You can't micro Phoenix against Vikings...theres no micro to DO other than focus fire, but they can have higher Viking numbers more easily. Unless like...the Vikings land and the Phoenixes have to pick them up or something.
On September 18 2012 04:29 Jermstuddog wrote: *snip*
Discounting whether or not Terran can be considered a "complete" race (because I have no intention of getting into that discussion) I do agree with your principle that the marine is too strong and thats why Terran is in such a bad state. Personally I reckon that the problems they've had balancing Terran as an entire race is because they've consistently avoided nerfing the marine in any way. Honestly I think a lot of Terran nerfs could have been avoided entirely if they'd just put their foot down and nerfed the marine instead. Instead they've spent a huge amount of time and effort nerfing everything AROUND the marine for balance which keeps forcing Terran players back to just producing a billion marines and attacking.
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I think the only way Terran has a decent chance in HOTS is the fact if A: we get Tech Reactors, B: cheaper upgrades and decreased upgrade times, C: Immortal gets trashed(never going to happen) D: We get the Science Vessel back cause that would help alot of with mech in TvP as it can heal mechanical units. E: Tanks and Thors get a big ass buffs in terms of damage, cost and dps That's pretty much what i think anyway
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they are not fresh enough, a 1/2 new unit plus 1 new unit, is bad even for a dlc
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On September 18 2012 20:24 Lightspeaker wrote: Discounting whether or not Terran can be considered a "complete" race (because I have no intention of getting into that discussion) I do agree with your principle that the marine is too strong and thats why Terran is in such a bad state. Personally I reckon that the problems they've had balancing Terran as an entire race is because they've consistently avoided nerfing the marine in any way. Honestly I think a lot of Terran nerfs could have been avoided entirely if they'd just put their foot down and nerfed the marine instead. Instead they've spent a huge amount of time and effort nerfing everything AROUND the marine for balance which keeps forcing Terran players back to just producing a billion marines and attacking.
Honestly, right now I think that the marine isn't that fundamentally flawed anymore. A lot of the problems when fighting marines came from Terran being able to play economically AND pressure with a costefficient unit. (so even/better economy AND good trades) Now they basically have to decide whether to pressure or to play economically. (so even/better economy OR good trades)
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Agree with the OP. Though I like SC2 a lot, not excited about HOTS.
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Warhound is quite a unit of protoss model. Strong single unit HIGH HP220 Good damage ease to use
that's why its removed
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