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On May 17 2010 14:01 johnnybrav0 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2010 09:53 Madkipz wrote:On May 17 2010 09:48 Riot20 wrote: I think most people should look up or get a general definition of what cheese really is. Void rays/dts are a tactic. No they are not a tactic, what do you proxy star gates into Voidrays to counter? NOTHING ANYONE doing it usually end up admitting that it is done to get easy wins against poor players. These people who hide their tech, or go for TRICK plays that rely soledly on stealth to have success suck at playing standard. Why the heck would you not hide your DT tech? Seriously, DT's are worthless if the enemy knows they're coming.
not even close to being true
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Yea P cheeses the most its annoying. I play P and it drives me nuts, I try to take things easy but i almost nerdraged the other day, got 5 pvps in a row and all of them did the same: proxy 2 gate -> voidray. And cannonrushes are more common now after patch 12 than before! You check their match history and all games are less than 6 mins long. So sad...
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On May 17 2010 12:27 ymirheim wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2010 09:52 7mk wrote:On May 17 2010 09:24 ymirheim wrote:On May 17 2010 09:16 Liquid`Drone wrote: for p to be winning this pool seems like people strongly misuse the term cheese I think about 95% of games ive seen where cheese was used terran was the culprit.
I haven't seen proxy gates for two months and I haven't seen zerg cheese even once. Well I don't know about everyone elses reason but this is precisely why I voted protoss actually. Two gate proxy is ridiculously common imo, to the point where I probably play a toss who tries to set up gateways inside or just outside my base about five times for every time I play a terran who does a super fast reaper or other variation of proxy rax. Actually something like my last seven PvT on scrap station and desert oasis were against two gate proxy. shouldnt two gate proxy be pretty easy to hold off as terran? the thing is, drone probably plays like 50 times as many games as other people so his opinion really says a lot more than some gold players who play like 10 games a week. Ehm.. what?? Whether or not you can fend it off has nothing to do with the definition. I am perfectly capable of stopping 2gate proxy if I see it. If I see the toss set up that pylon I just chuckle and think "nice, 20 easy points". But it is still cheese. Which is what the question was.
Yes it is, I was just saying that it's such an easy cheese to hold of as T that you should be grateful for the auto win and makes me think that you must be in bronze or something because I cant see many platinum protosses doing that vs T.
On May 17 2010 12:30 Cham wrote: I would've thought it would be Protoss, but I get cheesed by Terran a lot more. One of my recent matches on Incineration Zone the T lifted right away and went to the gold, walled in and made a super quick MM army. I was quite surprised.
hahah yeah had that happen to me too, once on that map... never gonna happen again though :p
On May 17 2010 17:50 danl9rm wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2010 14:01 johnnybrav0 wrote:On May 17 2010 09:53 Madkipz wrote:On May 17 2010 09:48 Riot20 wrote: I think most people should look up or get a general definition of what cheese really is. Void rays/dts are a tactic. No they are not a tactic, what do you proxy star gates into Voidrays to counter? NOTHING ANYONE doing it usually end up admitting that it is done to get easy wins against poor players. These people who hide their tech, or go for TRICK plays that rely soledly on stealth to have success suck at playing standard. Why the heck would you not hide your DT tech? Seriously, DT's are worthless if the enemy knows they're coming. not even close to being true
Lol yeah, Ive played lots of games where I went DTs and they virtually didnt do any economic damage whatsoever because T set up turrets up in time and I still won those games with ease.
Just yesterday I was watching orb's stream where inka played against someone in that Lickitung tourney and he lost like 5 DTs and a warp prism that did nothing but kill a turret and he still won that game convincingly.
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Terrans proxy-reaper me all the time.. haven't learned to deal with that yet it comes so fast T_T
Zergs do mass ling/baneling into mutas alot. Maybe it's not cheese but sure as hell feels cheesy when I miserably die to it.
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There should be an extra option to the poll, namely "random". Every time I play a random player, I feel like there is a cheese incoming.
I get cheese quite a lot on ladder - speedling all-ins, 10/15 gates (I consider it cheese as it sets you way back if deflected), proxy reaper/bunker rushes. I'd say that that 2 out of 3 terrans I've played have gone fast reaper rush.
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I actually got congratulated by someone on my play once because he figured I would voidray rush like every other protoss. I didn't realize it was like this lol, I never cheese.
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On May 17 2010 20:22 extracheez wrote: I actually got congratulated by someone on my play once because he figured I would voidray rush like every other protoss. I didn't realize it was like this lol, I never cheese.
Again, void rays aren't cheese T_T
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Also chiming in that I was hoping for a random option. I've won many games playing much safer (even beyond the usual 'what race will I scout') and focusing on scouting constantly when I'm up against random players. It's always been better (BW, WC3) to expect random players to play non-standard imo.
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The fact that protoss is winning this poll by so much shows how many people know what cheese is....
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I could not vote for all three so I just picked one at random.
After reading this thread I have come to realize what constitutes as the "real" definition of cheese.
Its basically when the opponent does something you wasn't expecting.
So yeah, ive been cheesed alot of times when I FAILED TO SCOUT! Terrans go cloaked banshees when I tech immortals and forget to have a observer in the base, zerg goes mass mutalisks when I lack sufficient anti air...thats cheese to maybe 70% of all the posters in this thread. If you consider VR cheese that is...
Why do we complain about "Cheese" anyways? Isnt cheese just another viable tactic in a wargame? Im sure you have all heard that in war, love and business every tactic is a viable tactic.
IRL a "cheesy" tactic is called a bold plan...sure its win or lose situation but if the player wants to play it that way not more you can do except whine about it or move on.
Sure, losing the game is a bitch but come on...DEAL with it!
I will not deny that I get pissed if my opponent proxy gate, build cannons in my base, proxy rax or 6 pool me and wins but I dont yell "CHEEEEEESSSEEEE" and run to the forums to poast about how unsportsmanlike war is...
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terran.
6/7rax bunker, banshee, tank drop (mal specific)
i see these much much more than i see any sort of proxy gate or early pool. Fast VR is common though
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On May 17 2010 20:31 Deep.inside wrote: I could not vote for all three so I just picked one at random.
After reading this thread I have come to realize what constitutes as the "real" definition of cheese.
Its basically when the opponent does something you wasn't expecting.
So yeah, ive been cheesed alot of times when I FAILED TO SCOUT! Terrans go cloaked banshees when I tech immortals and forget to have a observer in the base, zerg goes mass mutalisks when I lack sufficient anti air...thats cheese to maybe 70% of all the posters in this thread. If you consider VR cheese that is...
Why do we complain about "Cheese" anyways? Isnt cheese just another viable tactic in a wargame? Im sure you have all heard that in war, love and business every tactic is a viable tactic.
IRL a "cheesy" tactic is called a bold plan...sure its win or lose situation but if the player wants to play it that way not more you can do except whine about it or move on.
Sure, losing the game is a bitch but come on...DEAL with it!
I will not deny that I get pissed if my opponent proxy gate, build cannons in my base, proxy rax or 6 pool me and wins but I dont yell "CHEEEEEESSSEEEE" and run to the forums to poast about how unsportsmanlike war is... You completely misunderstand the definition of cheese. Its not when an opponent does something you weren't expecting, you are completely wrong. Your examples of cloacked banshees and mutalisks, niether fall into the category of cheese. Cheese is a play that RELIES on not being scouted to even work in any form whatsoever. A proxy rush is cheese, because it will only work if not scouted, and if it is scouted, it will completely fail.
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On May 17 2010 20:37 Chriamon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2010 20:31 Deep.inside wrote: I could not vote for all three so I just picked one at random.
After reading this thread I have come to realize what constitutes as the "real" definition of cheese.
Its basically when the opponent does something you wasn't expecting.
So yeah, ive been cheesed alot of times when I FAILED TO SCOUT! Terrans go cloaked banshees when I tech immortals and forget to have a observer in the base, zerg goes mass mutalisks when I lack sufficient anti air...thats cheese to maybe 70% of all the posters in this thread. If you consider VR cheese that is...
Why do we complain about "Cheese" anyways? Isnt cheese just another viable tactic in a wargame? Im sure you have all heard that in war, love and business every tactic is a viable tactic.
IRL a "cheesy" tactic is called a bold plan...sure its win or lose situation but if the player wants to play it that way not more you can do except whine about it or move on.
Sure, losing the game is a bitch but come on...DEAL with it!
I will not deny that I get pissed if my opponent proxy gate, build cannons in my base, proxy rax or 6 pool me and wins but I dont yell "CHEEEEEESSSEEEE" and run to the forums to poast about how unsportsmanlike war is... You completely misunderstand the definition of cheese. Its not when an opponent does something you weren't expecting, you are completely wrong. Your examples of cloacked banshees and mutalisks, niether fall into the category of cheese. Cheese is a play that RELIES on not being scouted to even work in any form whatsoever. A proxy rush is cheese, because it will only work if not scouted, and if it is scouted, it will completely fail.
um, if you see quick cloaked banshees coming their effect is 10x less than if you don't.
so yes, it does rely on not being scouted, yes, it is cheese. saying otherwise is like saying quickest possible dt build in BW isn't cheese
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On May 17 2010 20:37 Chriamon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2010 20:31 Deep.inside wrote: I could not vote for all three so I just picked one at random.
After reading this thread I have come to realize what constitutes as the "real" definition of cheese.
Its basically when the opponent does something you wasn't expecting.
So yeah, ive been cheesed alot of times when I FAILED TO SCOUT! Terrans go cloaked banshees when I tech immortals and forget to have a observer in the base, zerg goes mass mutalisks when I lack sufficient anti air...thats cheese to maybe 70% of all the posters in this thread. If you consider VR cheese that is...
Why do we complain about "Cheese" anyways? Isnt cheese just another viable tactic in a wargame? Im sure you have all heard that in war, love and business every tactic is a viable tactic.
IRL a "cheesy" tactic is called a bold plan...sure its win or lose situation but if the player wants to play it that way not more you can do except whine about it or move on.
Sure, losing the game is a bitch but come on...DEAL with it!
I will not deny that I get pissed if my opponent proxy gate, build cannons in my base, proxy rax or 6 pool me and wins but I dont yell "CHEEEEEESSSEEEE" and run to the forums to poast about how unsportsmanlike war is... You completely misunderstand the definition of cheese. Its not when an opponent does something you weren't expecting, you are completely wrong. Your examples of cloacked banshees and mutalisks, niether fall into the category of cheese. Cheese is a play that RELIES on not being scouted to even work in any form whatsoever. A proxy rush is cheese, because it will only work if not scouted, and if it is scouted, it will completely fail.
I am fully aware of what cheese actually is, however after reading this thread it seems that theres only a few people who does, since they consider VR tech as cheese. Thats the reason I said: "After reading this thread I have come to realize what constitutes as the "real" definition of cheese."
In my world proxy gate, 6 pool, proxy rax, bunker rush, cannon rush is all real cheese because if I counter it the opponent is screwed. And as you said that kind of play relies on not being scouted or countered. I never denied that, however even if its a cheap shot tactic I fail to see why everyone rushes to the forums poasting about their misery. I agree to that it sucks and is boring and whatever but as I said before, DEAL with it.
What really ticks me off is how most players who consider all that as cheese also likes to pile up a great lot of other things as cheese aswell. The reason is beyond me but I figure it has something to do with it being easier to blame the other player for cheese than accepting that "oh well...he went voidrays and I suck at scouting, or "oh well...he went cloaked banshees and my only observer is in the other base..."
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4 Gate 2 Gate + Void Ray rush 2 Gate + Robotics massing Immortal DT rush
That's pretty much Protoss for you.
Not saying it's cheese or anything...but it's so god damn boring and common I feel like I'm doing homework when I play Protoss.
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I like how this thread consists of two things. Truth, and crying tosses.
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On May 17 2010 21:10 Sieg wrote: 4 Gate 2 Gate + Void Ray rush 2 Gate + Robotics massing Immortal DT rush Proxy gates Cannon rush
That's pretty much Protoss for you.
Not saying it's cheese or anything...but it's so god damn boring and common I feel like I'm doing homework when I play Protoss. looks more like it
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On May 17 2010 20:35 faction123 wrote: terran.
6/7rax bunker, banshee, tank drop (mal specific)
i see these much much more than i see any sort of proxy gate or early pool. Fast VR is common though
haha, how are banshee and tank drops even remotely close to being cheese?
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How the fuck can you get cheesed by protoss? Cannon rush and proxy gates are the worst 2 rushes in the entire game. Maybe I'm doing something wrong (as T), but i've never had a problem with cheese, unless its a wide ramp and he 6 pooled or he's T and went proxy reaper.
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If you want to feel the true meaning of cheese try playing PvP. I hate this match so much. No real skill, everyone just want to cheese you.
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