On July 14 2011 17:11 Samhax wrote: Terran in Korea are on another level. For example, in EU/US events, you will never see a foreigner Terran go far in the tournament. They just don't have the strategies/mechanics to play the race, in MLG for example MMA was the only Terran in the top 8. In Dreamhack Bomber was the only Terran in top 8. Homestory Cup was dominated by Protoss, the only Terran that did well was Tarson but he was smashed by Huk and MC, etc. At the same time you have 4 terrans in the semi-final of the ST GSL. I hope they will never listen to foreigners Terran about balance because they aren't good enough to talk about it. David Kim has to work only with Koreans now. The difference in skill and strategies is too big now.
Edit: Oh and NASL event same story, no foreigner Terran did well.
So, if zerg doesn't get far in a tournament, it's mostly because of their race. When European/NA Terran doesn't make far in the tournament, it's because they are bad. Not to mention that most of the European Protoss/Zergs were doing really well at last MLG/DH/Homestory Cup, meanwhile Terrans were barely making Top 16 or Top 8. And saying that European/NA Zergs/Protoss are better than European/NA Terrans is just bullshit. I like how most of the zergs tries to "balance" the game with their stupid whines when foreigner zergs are doing bad in non-korean tournaments( hell, sometimes even in tournaments with korean invites), but when Terrans are doing bad, they are just bad, right ? So why we can't say the same about korean Protoss/Zergs and call them just bad compared to Korean Terrans? Because that won't make zerg/protoss race look weak as most of you want it to be.
And I still love how people come up with Korean Ladder to make Terran look OP once again. They don't care that most of the best zergs/protoss doesn't ladder, they don't care that map pool is shitty, they completely ignore the names of Terran players who are laddering and etc.
We can try manipulate ladder statistics as much as we want: TOP 3 Eu: 2 Zerg 1 Protoss. Three/Two days ago TOP 10 Eu was: 5 Zergs 4 Protoss 1 Terran. "Why are zergs doing so good? Zerg OP ?"and etc.
Some people (especially the one who plays zerg lol) are just sad.
I think the fact that the Korean pro scene has a relatively large number of Terrans at the moment combined with the number of smurfs some of those guys have explains a lot of this. I wouldn't be surprised if the Korean GM top 10 is just MKP.
On July 14 2011 11:48 Plexa wrote: Not too surprising. Terran seems to be the strongest race in korea. Not saying that Terran is imba, but the Terrans are on another level at the moment. Especially with the recent MMA style medivac revolution. ZP need to work out proper ways to deal with that, oh and protoss have to deal with the annoying 1/1/1 all in - which on ladder can be difficult.
1/1/1 all-ins are pretty bullshit
The two Protoss on the top aren't really the best Protoss either, I doubt anyone would consider them better than Sage,
Puzzle or MC. Though in a general sense, Terran does seem to be the strongest race right now, at least in Korea. Quite the opposite in EU/NA. Almost 50% of the Top 100 is Terran in Korea
I hate that and the 2 and 3rax all ins. Problem is no way to fix it without making terran late game weaker than it already is. What can you do? make marines or tanks slower to come out? disaster for mid - late balance,
what is the point of points like this? protoss all ins aren't strong or difficult to stop? of course they are. 2 base roach bane timings or 2 base baneling aggression can't be incredibly hard to deal with as well? of course it can.
The Koreans know how to use terrans. It annoys me so much when I see a terran play and they don't abuse drops and harass in general. The whole race is based on easy harass tactics, and Koreans (for the most part) are the only ones who see this...
On July 14 2011 17:11 Samhax wrote: Terran in Korea are on another level. For example, in EU/US events, you will never see a foreigner Terran go far in the tournament. They just don't have the strategies/mechanics to play the race, in MLG for example MMA was the only Terran in the top 8. In Dreamhack Bomber was the only Terran in top 8. Homestory Cup was dominated by Protoss, the only Terran that did well was Tarson but he was smashed by Huk and MC, etc. At the same time you have 4 terrans in the semi-final of the ST GSL. I hope they will never listen to foreigners Terran about balance because they aren't good enough to talk about it. David Kim has to work only with Koreans now. The difference in skill and strategies is too big now.
Edit: Oh and NASL event same story, no foreigner Terran did well.
So, if zerg doesn't get far in a tournament, it's mostly because of their race. When European/NA Terran doesn't make far in the tournament, it's because they are bad. Not to mention that most of the European Protoss/Zergs were doing really well at last MLG/DH/Homestory Cup, meanwhile Terrans were barely making Top 16 or Top 8. And saying that European/NA Zergs/Protoss are better than European/NA Terrans is just bullshit. I like how most of the zergs tries to "balance" the game with their stupid whines when foreigner zergs are doing bad in non-korean tournaments( hell, sometimes even in tournaments with korean invites), but when Terrans are doing bad, they are just bad, right ? So why we can't say the same about korean Protoss/Zergs and call them just bad compared to Korean Terrans? Because that won't make zerg/protoss race look weak as most of you want it to be.
And I still love how people come up with Korean Ladder to make Terran look OP once again. They don't care that most of the best zergs/protoss doesn't ladder, they don't care that map pool is shitty, they completely ignore the names of Terran players who are laddering and etc.
We can try manipulate ladder statistics as much as we want: TOP 3 Eu: 2 Zerg 1 Protoss. Three/Two days ago TOP 10 Eu was: 5 Zergs 4 Protoss 1 Terran. "Why are zergs doing so good? Zerg OP ?"and etc.
Some people (especially the one who plays zerg lol) are just sad.
i didn't say the NA/EU Zergs/Protoss are better than the Terrans. It's just that they don't have the skill/strategies to beat them, they can't play the race to his fullest. And no i'm not whinning about Terrans in Korea, they dominate because they have the better players. i'm a zerg and the only good Zerg players for me are Nestea/Losira/DRG, other Zergs aren't good enough, even if i'm always cheering for them.
And yeah if Terrans are doing so bad in the foreign scene it's because they are not good enough to play their race at his full potential (mainly lack of mechanics and lack of good game plan imho). You think someone like Nerchio will dominate in Korea? I don't think so, but he dominate every Terran in Europe without a problem, why? because Zerg is imba? No. Same for Naniwa you think he dominate the EU scene because Protoss is imba? No, but will he dominate Korea? No because Terrans in Korea are on another level.
On July 14 2011 18:02 Liquid`Jinro wrote: 1) Korea has way more good terrans than the other races.
2) Ladder maps have close spawns LOL
3) The good players of the other races are not laddering as much. Wheres MC, Puzzle, Hero? Wheres Dongraegu, Losira, Nestea? Meanwhile we have MKP, MVP etc all laddering hard.
EDIT: Actually MC has climbed a lot since I last checked, he ll be top 20 soon.
On July 14 2011 17:11 Samhax wrote: Terran in Korea are on another level. For example, in EU/US events, you will never see a foreigner Terran go far in the tournament. They just don't have the strategies/mechanics to play the race, in MLG for example MMA was the only Terran in the top 8. In Dreamhack Bomber was the only Terran in top 8. Homestory Cup was dominated by Protoss, the only Terran that did well was Tarson but he was smashed by Huk and MC, etc. At the same time you have 4 terrans in the semi-final of the ST GSL. I hope they will never listen to foreigners Terran about balance because they aren't good enough to talk about it. David Kim has to work only with Koreans now. The difference in skill and strategies is too big now.
Edit: Oh and NASL event same story, no foreigner Terran did well.
So, if zerg doesn't get far in a tournament, it's mostly because of their race. When European/NA Terran doesn't make far in the tournament, it's because they are bad. Not to mention that most of the European Protoss/Zergs were doing really well at last MLG/DH/Homestory Cup, meanwhile Terrans were barely making Top 16 or Top 8. And saying that European/NA Zergs/Protoss are better than European/NA Terrans is just bullshit. I like how most of the zergs tries to "balance" the game with their stupid whines when foreigner zergs are doing bad in non-korean tournaments( hell, sometimes even in tournaments with korean invites), but when Terrans are doing bad, they are just bad, right ? So why we can't say the same about korean Protoss/Zergs and call them just bad compared to Korean Terrans? Because that won't make zerg/protoss race look weak as most of you want it to be.
And I still love how people come up with Korean Ladder to make Terran look OP once again. They don't care that most of the best zergs/protoss doesn't ladder, they don't care that map pool is shitty, they completely ignore the names of Terran players who are laddering and etc.
We can try manipulate ladder statistics as much as we want: TOP 3 Eu: 2 Zerg 1 Protoss. Three/Two days ago TOP 10 Eu was: 5 Zergs 4 Protoss 1 Terran. "Why are zergs doing so good? Zerg OP ?"and etc.
Some people (especially the one who plays zerg lol) are just sad.
Actually, that doesn't give you a large enough sample size, so that would not work...
On July 14 2011 17:11 Samhax wrote: Terran in Korea are on another level. For example, in EU/US events, you will never see a foreigner Terran go far in the tournament. They just don't have the strategies/mechanics to play the race, in MLG for example MMA was the only Terran in the top 8. In Dreamhack Bomber was the only Terran in top 8. Homestory Cup was dominated by Protoss, the only Terran that did well was Tarson but he was smashed by Huk and MC, etc. At the same time you have 4 terrans in the semi-final of the ST GSL. I hope they will never listen to foreigners Terran about balance because they aren't good enough to talk about it. David Kim has to work only with Koreans now. The difference in skill and strategies is too big now.
Edit: Oh and NASL event same story, no foreigner Terran did well.
So, if zerg doesn't get far in a tournament, it's mostly because of their race. When European/NA Terran doesn't make far in the tournament, it's because they are bad. Not to mention that most of the European Protoss/Zergs were doing really well at last MLG/DH/Homestory Cup, meanwhile Terrans were barely making Top 16 or Top 8. And saying that European/NA Zergs/Protoss are better than European/NA Terrans is just bullshit. I like how most of the zergs tries to "balance" the game with their stupid whines when foreigner zergs are doing bad in non-korean tournaments( hell, sometimes even in tournaments with korean invites), but when Terrans are doing bad, they are just bad, right ? So why we can't say the same about korean Protoss/Zergs and call them just bad compared to Korean Terrans? Because that won't make zerg/protoss race look weak as most of you want it to be.
And I still love how people come up with Korean Ladder to make Terran look OP once again. They don't care that most of the best zergs/protoss doesn't ladder, they don't care that map pool is shitty, they completely ignore the names of Terran players who are laddering and etc.
We can try manipulate ladder statistics as much as we want: TOP 3 Eu: 2 Zerg 1 Protoss. Three/Two days ago TOP 10 Eu was: 5 Zergs 4 Protoss 1 Terran. "Why are zergs doing so good? Zerg OP ?"and etc.
Some people (especially the one who plays zerg lol) are just sad.
Actually, that doesn't give you a large enough sample size, so that would not work...
That is just an example how you can manipulate Top X and adding other continents. Ladder itself isn't the best indicator of balance/race performance due to various reasons.
I remember an interview with scfou where he was talking about his last match with Nestea (the epic one where he got 3-2ed by Nestea) and he was saying how he thought he would win easy since he usually beats Nestea in ladder, but then he played Nestea and this was a completely different Nestea than the one he faced on ladder.
I think Protoss will make a comeback if they start using the Phoenix style like MC does, because it's very strong against drops if you just let them patrol around your undefended points.
Terran is very strong on 1 base till the 8 minute mark. And they are more or less unscoutable up to that point. They have by far the most harassment options in the game. They can go 2-3 rax. They can go reactored hellions. Cloaked Banshees. Early dropships. These have the potential to be virtually game ending when you consider that 2/3 of the ladder games they play are close position or close by air. The other two races just have to sit in their bases. Not to mention, Blizz gave zerg macro mechanics that cannot respond fast enough for close position aggression.
Let's face it. Terran is the only well-designed race in the game. Probably they should just remove the other two races. I'm tired of watching casts and just seeing players sit in their base for 11 minutes because they have no other options.
Terran is the best race, so this isn't particularly surprising.
For the record, the game is probably quite balanced. Still, Terran is by far the most robust race, easiest to be consistent with, and the best at utilizing superior mechanics and multitasking to secure advantages in actual games.
On July 14 2011 22:29 wklbishop wrote: I remember an interview with scfou where he was talking about his last match with Nestea (the epic one where he got 3-2ed by Nestea) and he was saying how he thought he would win easy since he usually beats Nestea in ladder, but then he played Nestea and this was a completely different Nestea than the one he faced on ladder.
Actually I read an interview after a gsl game I think from nestea that he messes about on ladder, tries new things and just totally misleads opponents. He doesnt take ladder serious at all!
Thinkit was somewhere on this site if ive read it.
ladder maps favor terran the most, and terrans are currently dominating in the current styles of all terran-involved match ups in korea, so obviously they would have the most ladder spots.
there's also just so much development for terrans from so many different players that they are way ahead. i felt that there were more good terrans even in the beta. for the korean scene it started to really blow up with marineking and mvp it's only gotten more ridiculous with all the players from slayers owning up GSTL and other individuals representing their own teams very well
On July 14 2011 11:46 xlava wrote: Its a matter of development. The Korean Terrans are more developed than the World's. I don't remember who said it but its like that for Terrans in Korea and similarly the American Protoss are more developed. While the Zergs are stuck somewhere in between.
Sorry if its already been said but the reason is simply that so many of the broodwar idols that these players emulated when starting gaming played Terran. It is by far the most played race on the Korean server so if the results were any more 'balanced' then it would be worrying. And again as has no doubt been mentioned the small maps favour terran a bit atm. sCfOu has been #1 on the KR server more than anyone else by a long long way and every 2nd game he does an all-in
On July 14 2011 22:34 jdsowa wrote: Terran is very strong on 1 base till the 8 minute mark. And they are more or less unscoutable up to that point. They have by far the most harassment options in the game. They can go 2-3 rax. They can go reactored hellions. Cloaked Banshees. Early dropships. These have the potential to be virtually game ending when you consider that 2/3 of the ladder games they play are close position or close by air. The other two races just have to sit in their bases. Not to mention, Blizz gave zerg macro mechanics that cannot respond fast enough for close position aggression.
Let's face it. Terran is the only well-designed race in the game. Probably they should just remove the other two races. I'm tired of watching casts and just seeing players sit in their base for 11 minutes because they have no other options.
I'm pretty sure I know your league and what race you are playing lol.
1) The Blizzard ladder highly favors Terran, the fact that Terran dominates the ladder so hard is kind of expected, the more surprising thing in my opinion is that the races are so even in NA/EU. That's mostly insulting to NA/EU Terrans on the ladder, they're actually performing worse than expected IMO.
2) Korean Terrans are just better. This has a couple things adding in to it. You can argue that Terran is OP or not currently, but you can't argue that they weren't OP at release and for several months after release, that's a fact. Top-level competitive players are going to lean on the strongest race in the game, and Terrans have been that and, at worst, remain competitive in the current balance of the game. I have yet to see any reason for Terran players to switch away from the race other than boredom, it's still the race with the best ability to dictate matches, apply pressure in multiple areas simultaneously, turtle up in a bad situation, and make epic comebacks. If nothing else, the obscene amount of options available to top-level Terran players will keep them competitive for quite a long time.
3) Korean Zergs and Protoss are lacking in general. I can name 8-10 different Korean Terran players capable of playing a perfect game against any other top-level opponent, let's not even talk about tier 2 Terrans, that would take us all the way through Code A. The only perfect Zerg I can name consistently is Nestea, DRG and Losira are good, but they're definitely on the next tier down, and no other Zerg is really worth speaking of IMO. Protoss is a little better, but your list of players is still quite short. MC/Huk at the top with a slew of maybe 5 players on that second tier. Looking at it this way, it's a simple numbers game. Not everybody is going to ladder, but when you have such a huge discrepancy of top talent, you end up with lop-sided ladder results as well.
I'm sure there's other things going in to it, but I'm out of steam right now.
On July 14 2011 11:48 Plexa wrote: Not too surprising. Terran seems to be the strongest race in korea. Not saying that Terran is imba, but the Terrans are on another level at the moment. Especially with the recent MMA style medivac revolution. ZP need to work out proper ways to deal with that, oh and protoss have to deal with the annoying 1/1/1 all in - which on ladder can be difficult.
Remmember to that not every Korean pro plays a lot on ladder , they just focus to pratcice whit team or friends. Same thing is for example at EU GM , there are many good unknow players .. that are higher then pro players , but we dont see them onany turnaments , and these dont mean they are beeter then these pros
IMO ladder is just ladder , you cant start balance discusion looking at ladder , because many pros , just dont play ladder.