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After talking to Hotbid about opening a thread to our new statistic website www.sc2charts.net I've been looking for a topic and that was the only thing that I could come up with Apart from information about the amount of prizemoney a player won during his StarCraft II career you can find all sorts of statistics on our new website. The most prominent features are probably:
- Progamer Ranking (link)
This ranking shows the best players in StarCraft II based on our database which contains more than 22.000 matches! The algorythm used does not only take the skill level of the players into consideration but also includes the amount of matches they have in our database (as the rating of a player with 1.000 games is obviously more reliable as that of a player with only 10). The algorythm is based on the Glicko Rating System.
- Prizemoney Ranking (link
Did you ever wonder how much money the best european StarCraft II player won so far? How much prize money Nestea made or Kas? Our prizemoney ranking shows exactly those information and also give you details about the last achievements of the players and the amount of money they won at each event
- Matchup statistics (link)
Terran is imba? Protoss doesnt stand a chance again Zerg? Our Matchup statistics show you the race vs. race stats for each patch, the best map for each race in the existing matchups and many more information
FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS
- 1. What are those rankings based on?
The ranking is based on the match database of MyStarCraft.de which is a german website. The database includes all sorts of tournaments and leagues, also weekly cups (quarterfinals onwards). Right now the database is even bigger than the one on TL itself (even though it's pretty close). And of course: as we are german we are reliable!
- 2. Why does the database not include laddergames?
The main reason is that progamers don't take it serious. The Battle.net Ladder is where they train their strategies, play for fun and try new things. Ladder doesn't really matter all that match and we wanted to focus on the competitive aspect which is why we limit the database to tournaments and leagues (as well as showmatches, koth and whatever there is).
- 3. Why don't you use an ELO System for the Progamer Ranking?
The ELO system is one of the most common ones as it is really easy to apply. It has several flaws though which make it kinda useless for our purposes. It's a pretty good system but we were looking for something that gave us the chance to be more accurate when it comes down to a players strength and would take the amount of games (and therefore the validity of the skilllevel he's supposed to have) into consideration as well.
- 4. What's the Progamer Ranking based on?
The Progamer Ranking is based on the Glicko Rating System (details). We actually talked to to its creator in order to make sure that we could adjust the algorythm to the specific needs of our ranking. The ranking calculates the skilllevel for a player based on the matches in the database (every map counts, at 2:0 score in a bo3 is worth more than a 2:1). This obviously also takes into account how good the opponents of the player in question were. Then the accuracy of this skilllevel is taken into account in which the number of games played is very important. For a player with 1.000 matches the calculatet skilllevel is way more accurate of course than for a player with only 20 games. Those factores determine the ranking points in the end.
- 5. How come some Europeans are ranked so high?
Most koreans play in some kind of asian "bubble". They don't face foreigners that often. For this reason it's very hard for an international ranking to compare players from Korea to players from Europe or NA. The same problem occurs when you try to compare the Battle.net Ladder for different servers. This problem will be minimized in time as right now a lot of korean players attend european or american tournaments far more often and players like naniwa and thorzain travel to korea to compete in the korean leagues.
- 6. How is it possible that DRG is ranked ahead of Nestea?
This is based on the fact that DRGs recent opponents are considered to be much stronger than the opponents Nestea had to face. The system takes the skilllevel of the players facing each other into account which is why defeating a strong opponent will give you more ranking points than defeating inferior ones.
- 7. Why should I use this ranking of TLPD?
TLPD is based on an ELO system. Even though ELO is a valid ranking system the one that we apply is far more superior as it takes the accuracy of the determined skilllevel based on the amount of games a player played into consideration as well. Also the database applied is bigger than the database TL uses for the ranking, that's one major point that one should NOT underestimate. Whichever ranking one uses the amount of data it is based on is always one of the most important things to consider. In order to better understand why Glicko is superior to ELO for such a ranking I'd suggest to have a closer look on wikipedia at both the systems. (PS: this does not stats that the TLPD is crap, the SC2Charts Ranking is simply more accurate).
- more will be added later
PS: right after this edit I'll have to leave for my flight to Australia. I'll make sure that we will add some information regarding the rankings and the database to www.sc2charts.net as well. I'm very sorry for the confusion, I should have elaborated on those things earlier. ----------------------------
Apart from those information there's a lot more information to find on the website and I really hope you are goint to like it. We put a lot of effort in the site and the database is growing by the day. The website's purpose is to provide you with statistics and not being a community website although it has quite a lot of features.
Even though I'll leave tomorrow for my holidays it'd be great if you could provide us with some feedback on the website!
kind regards, Khaldor
Link: http://www.sc2charts.net
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Wow awesome website. I like it a lot.
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Awesome website. Very well done.
I curious about DRG's rating (as a lot of people will be presumably).
Is this just an "artifact" of your rating system because he has a relatively small sample size compared to other top players? Would you bet money on DRG having a very good run in this GSL or is there not enough information?
Edit: Perhaps I spoke too soon. There is a small explanation of this choice on the website for those who are interested.
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Your site says that Zerg win 49% of the time on Metalopolis. Blizzard says that's actually 60%+. >.< 5000 games doesn't seem to be a great statistical medium.
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Khaldor knows how to arouse my interest.
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cool man! thanks for putting it all together! :D
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Sick site. Possible to have the prize money converted to other currencies as well though?
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This site does more than money earnings.
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Yeah honestly any rating that doesn't put NesTea at the top of the list is subject to some scrutiny. I guess if it takes into consider relative difficulty of taking out players then I guess NesTea wouldn't be at the top because he hasn't gone up against some of the bigger names in a little while.
Interesting nonetheless, and the site looks really really good.
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Of course the rating will be more accurat the more games of him we'll see in future, but in general you have to make sure that you find a middleground when considering players that have 1.000 games and players that have only 50. I think we've done a pretty good job and we actually talked to the guy who invented the Glicko Rating System in order to make some adjustments to make it as exact as possible. We had several simulations as well and the current system works quite well.
Puma for example is rated a lot farther down the list even though he won NASL. StarCraft II is a very young game and the more matches there'll be played the better the list will be but right now DRG deserves to be on #1. After the MLG the ranked 3rd but due to his recent achievements at the GSL again pretty good players he was able to gain additional ranking points. The ranking is updated every day so players will gain and lose points according to their recent performance.
Another thing you have to keep in mind is that a lot of koreans don't play agains european and american players that much. Therefore it's sometimes hard to compare players to each other as its an international ranking. But with more and more koreans attending foreign events and players like Naniwa and Thorzain going to korea those comparisons are a lot easier to make and will greatly benefit the ranking as well. Right now there is no better ranking due to my knowledge and even though DRG might sound surprising at first a look into his match history shows why he deserves to be there, at least for now
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Bad top 15 pro-gamers... Should have just used the ELO system.
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doubt anyone will look at it more than once
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On August 10 2011 07:24 Chargelot wrote: Your site says that Zerg win 49% of the time on Metalopolis. Blizzard says that's actually 60%+. >.< 5000 games doesn't seem to be a great statistical medium.
Blizzard takes the laddergames into consideration. We don't, as for most pro players ladder is a platform used for training and not taken all that serious. Our database includes only tournament and league games and is, at least in my opinion, therefore a lot more suited to judge the performance of progamers.
Cheers, Khaldor
PS: by time the stats will of course get even better due to the additional games that are added every single day.
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Question: Can you explain what the "Diff." number means on the progamer ranking page?
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On August 10 2011 07:33 Khaldor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 07:24 Chargelot wrote: Your site says that Zerg win 49% of the time on Metalopolis. Blizzard says that's actually 60%+. >.< 5000 games doesn't seem to be a great statistical medium. Blizzard takes the laddergames into consideration. We don't, as for most pro players ladder is a platform used for training and not taken all that serious. Our database includes only tournament and league games and is, at least in my opinion, therefore a lot more suited to judge the performance of progamers. Cheers, Khaldor PS: by time the stats will of course get even better due to the additional games that are added every single day.
Cool. Thanks for the explanation. :D looking forward to viewing this site in 10 years to see how far we've come.
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On August 10 2011 07:31 JJH777 wrote: Bad top 15 pro-gamers... Should have just used the ELO system.
An ELO system is more than useless when it comes down to a reliable ranking. Its a system that is very very simple and easy to apply but lacks so many things that need to be taken into consideration when setting up a ranking like that.
At some point we set up an ELO system for fun for our database and the results were just ridiculous ELO systems have their use and a lot of advantages but in this case their are not the way to go.
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Can anyone explain the algorithm? It's an interesting result to say the least, but DRG being #1 definitely doesn't really make sense to me.
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Best protoss map XNC is below 49% win lol.
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Excellent site, tournament play and statistics is really all that should be looked at, not ladder play. Tournament level play is soo much higher and consistant than what we see on the ladder.
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United States8476 Posts
On August 10 2011 07:30 Triscuit wrote: Yeah honestly any rating that doesn't put NesTea at the top of the list is subject to some scrutiny. I guess if it takes into consider relative difficulty of taking out players then I guess NesTea wouldn't be at the top because he hasn't gone up against some of the bigger names in a little while.
Interesting nonetheless, and the site looks really really good.
The problem is that the sc2 scene is still quite fairly divided. For example, not everyone has the same chance of facing each other. Koreans tend to face more koreans and foreigners tend to face more foreigners. Thus, even though one scene may be miles ahead of another, the top players of each scene will be ranked closely together. Yes, there is some overlap, but not enough to make a "fair" ranking system.
Also, I don't believe their ranking system puts weights on more important games. For example, the GSL finals obviously means more than a zotac cup round of 16.
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On August 10 2011 07:35 zul wrote:for the stats I follow SC2Statistics on twitter. The Matchup Stats are cool though.
Example of the Twitter you linked: SC2Statistics SC2stats EU Bnet Invitational: Tarson vs Socke. Previous record 3-0. Tarson vs P 75 - 67(52,8%). Socke vs T 173 - 113(60,5%). @RotterdaM08
Our database on Socke vs. Tarson: http://www.sc2charts.net/en/edb/player_compare/34-tarson/30-socke
you'll realize that we have a lot more games in our database and therefore the statistics provided are far more accurate.
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So do you have some script that parses all the stats from SC2Statistics on twitter allowing you to produce meaningful analysis yourself?
Raw stats are nice to have, but most of the time stats that have already been analyzed (in this case by the Glicko Rating System) are much more useful to have.
But you must be some savant who can look at a page of raw stats and know exactly what's going on, or something.
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Uhhh DRG in first place? I would contest that- despite his strong strong GSTL showings, he still has yet to really impress with victories over top class players like MVP, or even beat MMA at MLG. Yes he very well is top 10, but I really think ELO is the better ranking system- usually something so prolific is proflic because of its quality
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I love you Khaldor. This is seriously awesome and what's even more important - up to date.
Thanks for your tremendous work.
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On August 10 2011 07:41 CeriseCherries wrote: Uhhh DRG in first place? I would contest that- despite his strong strong GSTL showings, he still has yet to really impress with victories over top class players like MVP, or even beat MMA at MLG. Yes he very well is top 10, but I really think ELO is the better ranking system- usually something so prolific is proflic because of its quality
Ignore the top players list, it's impossible to make accurate right now.
Especially with all the tiny EU tourneys inflating their score (same thing happens with ELO)
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On August 10 2011 07:41 CeriseCherries wrote: Uhhh DRG in first place? I would contest that- despite his strong strong GSTL showings, he still has yet to really impress with victories over top class players like MVP, or even beat MMA at MLG. Yes he very well is top 10, but I really think ELO is the better ranking system- usually something so prolific is proflic because of its quality
Why don't you show us what ELO makes of these statistics? Until then most people will assume you don't know what you're talking about.
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does it add the prize money since beta and little cups?
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Just fix the ranking so Nestea is at the top and I'll be happy. Nestea is at the top of the ELO system.
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Naturally IdrA is the only good NA player lol
Also makes me sad even though im a hardcore fanboy
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Where does this site get their statistics from? It says Metalopolis is the best zerg map, with DRG being the best player on it, having 38 wins and 13 losses on it. Has he even played that many televised games on that map yet?
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spent 2 hours in there - such an awesome site ! <33 khaldor ur the man
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Can they put in a total prize money feature so that we don't only sort by year but by all years.
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DRG first place a Zerg who goes Hydra versus a Terran? x)
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On August 10 2011 07:39 Divergence wrote:So do you have some script that parses all the stats from SC2Statistics on twitter allowing you to produce meaningful analysis yourself? Raw stats are nice to have, but most of the time stats that have already been analyzed (in this case by the Glicko Rating System) are much more useful to have. But you must be some savant who can look at a page of raw stats and know exactly what's going on, or something. I like the "savant" Of course I don`t collect all the raw data and interpret it by myself. The man behind this twitter account once presented some graphs on TL, I found it highly interesting and so I followed him. He regularly releases graphs about all kinds of tournaments and timeframes (lookahere: http://i.imgur.com/uaVuw.png) As far as I understand him he uses a program that checks for data automaticaly (similar to how sc2ranks works) and different to Khaldors new website a lot of the stats come from the Ladder. So we have one database for Ladderstats and one for Tournamentstats. Looks like a win-win for me.
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Very cool site. I've added it to my bookmarks and will probably visit quite frequently in the future.
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On August 10 2011 07:24 Chargelot wrote: Your site says that Zerg win 49% of the time on Metalopolis. Blizzard says that's actually 60%+. >.< 5000 games doesn't seem to be a great statistical medium.
maybe that is because (for example) terran won (or had won) 80% of the close spawns? (this is a serious question, I don't know for sure and curious about it as well)
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On August 10 2011 07:52 JKira wrote: Where does this site get their statistics from? It says Metalopolis is the best zerg map, with DRG being the best player on it, having 38 wins and 13 losses on it. Has he even played that many televised games on that map yet?
It doesn't say the best Zerg player on Meta, just the best Zerg player. And it's all his matches from LG tournament, MLG , GSTL and Code A.
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DongRaeGu won the LG cinema 3d game festival and won 10,000$ with it, but he is ranked 131 with just 695$? @about meta blizzard stats were based on ladder games, including lower league matches, while this one is based on pro games
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That's only one feature.
I like the site. The match database seems to be bigger than TLPD or the gosugamers.net database: (many) more games for every player I checked.
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Cool site man.
Looked around it and saw in the MU section that they are reasonable balanced. Didn't see if you included which kind of games(you counted) and methods(you used) but this seems like a fine site.
Thanks I will be using this a lot.
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On August 10 2011 08:27 Skiro wrote: DongRaeGu won the LG cinema 3d game festival and won 10,000$ with it, but he is ranked 131 with just 695$? @about meta blizzard stats were based on ladder games, including lower league matches, while this one is based on pro games http://www.sc2charts.net/en/edb/ranking/prizes/&Month=0&Year=0&page=2
he is 57. with 7,164€ (> 10,000$)
They put the tournament in 2010, though. There are some mistakes/bugs, but overall the pricemoney ranking seems to be the most accurate of all the sites out there, at least of the players I checked.
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lol Bomber and DRG for the best Terran and Zerg.....
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Great looking website. Lol. Sorry everyone seems to ignore that because of DRG being on top of your skill rating system. But everything seems very well put together.
With that in mind though, you might infer from the response that the top rated player is largely the reason why teamliquid members go to websites like these, so it might be an important issue to address.
On August 10 2011 08:46 tuho12345 wrote: lol Bomber and DRG for the best Terran and Zerg.....
I actually agree with Bomber as top Terran. Who do you think might be better than him?
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must be disheartening for someone like StrifeCro to have only won 14 euros after a year of playing...(according to this site)
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On August 10 2011 08:55 TERRANLOL wrote:Great looking website. Lol. Sorry everyone seems to ignore that because of DRG being on top of your skill rating system. But everything seems very well put together. With that in mind though, you might infer from the response that the top rated player is largely the reason why teamliquid members go to websites like these, so it might be an important issue to address. Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 08:46 tuho12345 wrote: lol Bomber and DRG for the best Terran and Zerg..... I actually agree with Bomber as top Terran. Who do you think might be better than him? MVP, hello? just b/c Bomber has higher ratio doesn't mean he has played more game than MVP. Therefore the ration is not worth it, just like I start the season with 10-0 doesn't make my win ratio 100% right?
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Huk and Naniwa representing foreigner pride!!!! i still feel there's quite a bit of money in SC2, especially in foreign tournaments
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finally someone did this
this is the most mathematically accurate way we have of determining top players
looking forward to you guys tuning up your algorithms because DRG at top makes sense given the competition he faced but there are some EU tournys and matches and thus EU players that I think are being given too much weight..
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IMO you should put the money into $$ rather than Euros, since most people use dollars as a measure. Great site btw!
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I... can't believe that Nestea is ranked number 6 :O
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awesome... really like the moneymaking ranking thing. thought nestea earned the most, but no!
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On August 10 2011 09:02 Lamphead wrote: finally someone did this
this is the most mathematically accurate way we have of determining top players
looking forward to you guys tuning up your algorithms because DRG at top makes sense given the competition he faced but there are some EU tournys and matches and thus EU players that I think are being given too much weight..
I agree that some of the EU players are placed a bit too high and that the smaller EU cups are inflating their score. How many people here truly believe Kas is a better player than Puma? Or that Nerchio is stronger than Thorzain?
But I do have to ask, why use this over TLPD?
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is there a way to rate players by BOX instead of just games ? that would be usefull also!
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XNC still the best map haha.
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On August 10 2011 09:07 setzer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 09:02 Lamphead wrote: finally someone did this
this is the most mathematically accurate way we have of determining top players
looking forward to you guys tuning up your algorithms because DRG at top makes sense given the competition he faced but there are some EU tournys and matches and thus EU players that I think are being given too much weight.. I agree that some of the EU players are placed a bit too high and that the smaller EU cups are inflating their score. How many people here truly believe Kas is a better player than Puma? Or that Nerchio is stronger than Thorzain? But I do have to ask, why use this over TLPD? Because TLPD has seperate databases for International and Korean. And look on TLPD, a lot the top players in there are from EU small cups and the ICCup Korean Weekly, it has inflated ELO as well.
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Canada409 Posts
On August 10 2011 08:34 vdale wrote:That's only one feature. I like the site. The match database seems to be bigger than TLPD or the gosugamers.net database: (many) more games for every player I checked. This is probably because games are spread through several databases in the TLPD (ie. Korean, International, Beta). If you add the number of games from each individual database together, I'm pretty sure TLPD will come out on top for every player.
Anyhow, I absolutely LOVE the prize money rankings on this site. Keep it up! <3
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Nestea is rank 20? Wha? He hasn't lost a series in a like a thousand years...
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Really great site. I just would like to see somehow get gstl "nerfed" in the ranking. Because i just don't think it is nearly as competetive as gsl or an mlg/nasl.
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On August 10 2011 09:29 ShatterZer0 wrote: Nestea is rank 20? Wha? He hasn't lost a series in a like a thousand years...
He's rank 6...
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On August 10 2011 07:25 Primadog wrote: Khaldor knows how to arouse my interest.
Ladder is composed for millions of people who can't play. Even masters on ladder is a complete joke compared to pro-gamer level.
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This is amazing! If all my fingers were thumbs I'd give you 10 thumbs up for all the work you've done here.
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On August 10 2011 09:53 Divergence wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 09:29 ShatterZer0 wrote: Nestea is rank 20? Wha? He hasn't lost a series in a like a thousand years... He's rank 6...
He also lost to TOP in the Super Tournament less than two months ago. Not to mention he got beaten by MMA just last night.
He also hasn't played many top tier players in the last while.
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Awesome site, really nice job.
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On August 10 2011 09:17 Burpies wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 08:34 vdale wrote:That's only one feature. I like the site. The match database seems to be bigger than TLPD or the gosugamers.net database: (many) more games for every player I checked. This is probably because games are spread through several databases in the TLPD (ie. Korean, International, Beta). If you add the number of games from each individual database together, I'm pretty sure TLPD will come out on top for every player. Anyhow, I absolutely LOVE the prize money rankings on this site. Keep it up! <3
I forgot about the Beta database, but you aren't right about "every" player.
I checked Socke (German player, German database) TLPD: 670 + 60 (Beta) = 730 SC2Charts: 836
and Morrow TLPD: 623 + 88 (Beta) = 711 SC2Charts: 747
It's pretty close, though.
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On August 10 2011 09:00 tuho12345 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 08:55 TERRANLOL wrote:Great looking website. Lol. Sorry everyone seems to ignore that because of DRG being on top of your skill rating system. But everything seems very well put together. With that in mind though, you might infer from the response that the top rated player is largely the reason why teamliquid members go to websites like these, so it might be an important issue to address. On August 10 2011 08:46 tuho12345 wrote: lol Bomber and DRG for the best Terran and Zerg..... I actually agree with Bomber as top Terran. Who do you think might be better than him? MVP, hello? just b/c Bomber has higher ratio doesn't mean he has played more game than MVP. Therefore the ration is not worth it, just like I start the season with 10-0 doesn't make my win ratio 100% right?
Bomber beat MVP in the code A finals and in their recent GSTL match. Bomber has shown much much more consistent results since his debut. MVP used to be the most dominant player out there, but he's been on a slump lately. Yes, he won MLG and he looked pretty dominant this season, but he's lost too many games recently too early in the GSL to be the best terran in the world. He's a good terran, but there are players who are much more dominant than him right now. With that being said, he's looking pretty good this season, but my bet would still be on bomber. Even when he lost to Byun he looked like a much better player.
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Best zerg map has slightly negative win ratio ^.^
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I dont trust that programer rankings. If its based on something else, nvm, but if its based on skill, then its really innacurate. Huk, boxer, and puma behind idra? Mvp behind DRG? I could keep going but again, i aint sure what that list is based off.
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EDIT: OOPS forgot the valve tourney was in $ not Euros but still....
Hopefully SC2 will get a couple massive scale tourneys like that in the future as it continues to grow
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Wow!!! Awesome siteweb !! im gonna bookmark that right now! :D
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Can't say I'm surprised that all of the Top 10 in prize money earnings are Korean, lmao.
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Holy crap MC is rich. Huk being a baller canadian too. $25k euro in a year is a decent amount of money.
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Just scanning the site and found something odd. Your developer has the same first name and birthday as me. WTF?! O_o
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Nice job thanks cool stuff
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DRG ranked better then NesTea?! Artosis would not approve.
Like the site though.
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Very cool website, thanks Khaldor. I'm mystified at the amount of people commenting here who blatantly didn't even look at the website and it's features.
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Polt not in the top 15 ? DRG ahead of Nestea ? oO Seeing MMA classified way higher than Polt hurts my little heart.
The website is very cool though. Quite sad to see the TvZ win ranking on the maps :/
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On August 10 2011 16:17 JonnyLaw wrote: Very cool website, thanks Khaldor. I'm mystified at the amount of people commenting here who blatantly didn't even look at the website and it's features.
I'm sure a lot of people only read the op, don't press any links and then makes a "gut feeling" post. Internet behaviour.
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The site, it is amazing.
Greatest human invention since the wheel. Heck, it's the greatest invention since the MULE! What a god-send!
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At first I was thinking. Hey, the prize money ranking site already exists.
Then I was really impressed. Will definitely be using this as my backbone for referencing player strength.
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Australia18228 Posts
On August 10 2011 16:21 mr_tolkien wrote: Polt not in the top 15 ? DRG ahead of Nestea ? oO Seeing MMA classified way higher than Polt hurts my little heart.
The website is very cool though. Quite sad to see the TvZ win ranking on the maps :/
MMA has beaten all three gods (MC, MVP, NesTea) before as well as DRG. From a tournament-matches perspective, MMA has beaten far better players than Polt/Optimus has.
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Thanks for all these new statistics, but can I ask where you're gathering the information? Sorry if this has already been posted if I'm just blind.
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On August 10 2011 10:49 TERRANLOL wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 09:00 tuho12345 wrote:On August 10 2011 08:55 TERRANLOL wrote:Great looking website. Lol. Sorry everyone seems to ignore that because of DRG being on top of your skill rating system. But everything seems very well put together. With that in mind though, you might infer from the response that the top rated player is largely the reason why teamliquid members go to websites like these, so it might be an important issue to address. On August 10 2011 08:46 tuho12345 wrote: lol Bomber and DRG for the best Terran and Zerg..... I actually agree with Bomber as top Terran. Who do you think might be better than him? MVP, hello? just b/c Bomber has higher ratio doesn't mean he has played more game than MVP. Therefore the ration is not worth it, just like I start the season with 10-0 doesn't make my win ratio 100% right? Bomber beat MVP in the code A finals and in their recent GSTL match. Bomber has shown much much more consistent results since his debut. MVP used to be the most dominant player out there, but he's been on a slump lately. Yes, he won MLG and he looked pretty dominant this season, but he's lost too many games recently too early in the GSL to be the best terran in the world. He's a good terran, but there are players who are much more dominant than him right now. With that being said, he's looking pretty good this season, but my bet would still be on bomber. Even when he lost to Byun he looked like a much better player. You sure MVP lost early GSL was a slump? Or just a scheme to get out early to go to MLG to kick some foreign asses ?
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Whoa no way drg is best Zerg when there's nestea, much less rank as first player @_@
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Nestea 6. Naniwa 8. what's the joke here ? /random ? there shouldn't be any foreigners in top15
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Great site!
Some feedback:
There are some flaws regarding prize money rankings because of the exchange rates. I can directly see that it's off when it comes to the GSL prize money, because they are lower than what the exchange rate was during that time.
The correct data for the winners is the following. GSL Season 1 = 64163 Euro GSL Season 2 = 64 753 Euro GSL Season 3 = 65 644 Euro GSL January = 32 945 Euro GSL March = 31 350 Euro GSL WC = 19 152 Euro GSL May winner = 32 583 Euro GSL ST winner = 64 292 Euro GSL July winner = 32 956 Euro
* Exchange rate based on the day the GSL finals were played.
By just checking the GSL final winnings NesTea have earned 5400 Euros more and MC 5100 Euros more than this ranking show.
It is probably even more if you check the placements of all the Code S as well.
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huh drg is ranked 1? I guess wining team matches that don't mean shit and then beating a few foreigners really put you up there
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I find it very hard to believe that DRG is #1 sc2 player in the world right now. I mean statistics are not wrong, but you guys must use a very wonky system to place this nerchio and stephano fellows ahead of nada and boxer.
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Naniwa 8 ?? Come on...
Other than the weird progamer ranking, awesome website, congratulation.
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The ranking is, as I already stated, the most accurate there is now. It has to deal with some problems though which is for once the "bubbles" the different servers are in, and the fact that SC2 has only been around for 1 year.
As there seems to be quite a lot of confusion and as people are apparently a little bit too lazy to browse through the pages I'll add some answers to those questions later on. Btw. I mentioned Glicko, so how about some of you check out first what it's actually about before stating some random hearsay about the ranking or even claiming ELO would be better?
Cheers, Khaldor
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On August 10 2011 17:42 Khaldor wrote:The ranking is, as I already stated, the most accurate there is now. It has to deal with some problems though which is for once the "bubbles" the different servers are in, and the fact that SC2 has only been around for 1 year. As there seems to be quite a lot of confusion and as people are apparently a little bit too lazy to browse through the pages I'll add some answers to those questions later on. Btw. I mentioned Glicko, so how about some of you check out first what it's actually about before stating some random hearsay about the ranking or even claiming ELO would be better? Cheers, Khaldor
You say it's the most accurate but that simply isn't true. DRG is not the best player in the world. There isn't even a strong argument for him being so. He lost the MLG he was expected to stomp. There are no foreigners in the top 10 players in the world. How can you actually call this more accurate than the TLPD rankings?
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haha im in the top 400 sc2 earners of 2010 hilarious :D
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On August 10 2011 17:42 Khaldor wrote:The ranking is, as I already stated, the most accurate there is now. It has to deal with some problems though which is for once the "bubbles" the different servers are in, and the fact that SC2 has only been around for 1 year. As there seems to be quite a lot of confusion and as people are apparently a little bit too lazy to browse through the pages I'll add some answers to those questions later on. Btw. I mentioned Glicko, so how about some of you check out first what it's actually about before stating some random hearsay about the ranking or even claiming ELO would be better? Cheers, Khaldor
Yes, I read your explanation and browse through it with my brain turned on, still, I think you have to agree that for anyone who follow accurately the scene for a long time, the Progamer Rankings doesn't reflect AT ALL the current state of each player's skill.
Naniwa better than Losira, SC, Polt,... That is so funny that it is kinda ridiculous.
I am looking forward to observe how it stabilize after some tournaments, this GSL etc. Right now EU/US are way too high in the ranking. When the 8th best progamer gets raped 2-0 by the 65th's one (Nani Vs Check), there IS a problem in the way the ranking is done.
I am not raging over it, I love your website, I just find that the progamer ranking is ridiculous, even with your "It is the most accurate now" ;-).
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Because we have the bigger database and the better system. And I'd appreciate it if you'd wait for my explanations (I clearly stated I'll answer to the questions in this thread later, didnt I?) instead of just stating your opinion as if it was a fact. Did you even take the time to read through what the Glicko System we use actually is and does? I don't really think so.
I also scratched on the surface of the problem with the foreigners in several posts already. So think about what I said and figure it out on your own or simply wait for me to elaborate on it later on. I won't be able to answer ALL the questions as my flight to Australia leaves pretty soon but I'll do my best to answer the most urgent ones.
Reading some of the post in here I begin to think some people assume we used some random bullshit system to create those rankings...
EDIT: my post was meant as an answer to JJH777. I totally agree with the korea/europe problem but thats not the fault of the ranking as I will explain later. Just be patient need to record some videos first and then I'll edit the OP
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id like to see a full statistic on all the maps.
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Hm, a couple of suggestions:
1) Include an option to define time periods for frequencies, i.e. "I want race balance stats for games played during the past 3 months" (I gather this would probably not work for the players' skill ratings due to the algorithm used?)
2) Mark 'pro replays', preferably with server tags (or player tags: KR/US/EU etc)
I'll have a closer look later.
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On August 10 2011 17:54 Khaldor wrote:Because we have the bigger database and the better system. And I'd appreciate it if you'd wait for my explanations (I clearly stated I'll answer to the questions in this thread later, didnt I?) instead of just stating your opinion as if it was a fact. Did you even take the time to read through what the Glicko System we use actually is and does? I don't really think so. I also scratched on the surface of the problem with the foreigners in several posts already. So think about what I said and figure it out on your own or simply wait for me to elaborate on it later on. I won't be able to answer ALL the questions as my flight to Australia leaves pretty soon but I'll do my best to answer the most urgent ones. Reading some of the post in here I begin to think some people assume we used some random bullshit system to create those rankings... EDIT: my post was meant as an answer to JJH777. I totally agree with the korea/europe problem but thats not the fault of the ranking as I will explain later. Just be patient need to record some videos first and then I'll edit the OP
You are right, I didn't got to read all about the Glicko thingy and other techy stuff, I am just stating my opinion as an end user of your website. In a company when a end user has a problem or doesn't understand the way something has been done by the IT department, "RTFM you arrogant whinner, our system is freaking perfect !" is rarely the good way of dealing with it.
I thought it would be important for you to get a feedback from a random end user who follow the scene since the beta. If we need to read X and Y concepts, deals with maths and everything BEFORE stating what immediately comes to mind when discovering your pro ranking, I think there is a problem.
Nevertheless I am looking forward to your clarification post, and more importantly the huge nerf on the current ranking of the unfortunate jokes that are EU players regarding KR ones atm.
Edit : I saw your edit explaining who you were answering to after having wrote this post ^^. Lets patiently wait then .
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On August 10 2011 07:30 Khaldor wrote:Of course the rating will be more accurat the more games of him we'll see in future, but in general you have to make sure that you find a middleground when considering players that have 1.000 games and players that have only 50. I think we've done a pretty good job and we actually talked to the guy who invented the Glicko Rating System in order to make some adjustments to make it as exact as possible. We had several simulations as well and the current system works quite well. Puma for example is rated a lot farther down the list even though he won NASL. StarCraft II is a very young game and the more matches there'll be played the better the list will be but right now DRG deserves to be on #1. After the MLG the ranked 3rd but due to his recent achievements at the GSL again pretty good players he was able to gain additional ranking points. The ranking is updated every day so players will gain and lose points according to their recent performance. Another thing you have to keep in mind is that a lot of koreans don't play agains european and american players that much. Therefore it's sometimes hard to compare players to each other as its an international ranking. But with more and more koreans attending foreign events and players like Naniwa and Thorzain going to korea those comparisons are a lot easier to make and will greatly benefit the ranking as well. Right now there is no better ranking due to my knowledge and even though DRG might sound surprising at first a look into his match history shows why he deserves to be there, at least for now
You claim that DRG is most deserving of the leading position, which you determined by using the "Glicko System", which in your words is the most accurate.
You suggest that DRG's recent achievements at the GSL have regained his position as number 1. Where as your most recent results for Nestea are the GSL July where he had went 16-0. This is where I get really confused because I see it as a DRG was ranked 3rd until he achieved 2 wins which someone moved him up 2 spots into the leading role, where as Nestea 16-0'd his previous bracket and he still somehow is all the way at number 6. How would it be possible for him to move up? How many more matches would he have to win if 16 direct wins doesn't bolster him ahead of players such as MMA or MVP. ALL of he which he has a better total win percentage in overall wins and individual match ups, and a more consistent recent win history than anyone. (Nestea was just my example. Not an example based off of an emotional attachment, just an easy example most befitting for the situation.
I'm hoping for a release of a more detailed explanation of how the system works and the adjustments that were implemented to better suit the sport. I am not aware of it determines the points received by the opponents skill level, or recent results have an existent priority. I myself don't agree that these systems should be interpreted as fact. Rather an interesting way of interpreting data.
I see that a lot of work has gone into not only the system but the website as a whole. Awesome work.
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Everyone hating on the sites ranking either has a poor understanding of how statistics works or hasn't taken the time to read up on the system.
To my understanding the rankings will sort itself out as more games are played as the uncertainty for each player in question gets lower. Glicko is essentially the same as ELO while taking into consideration the certainty of the rating. If you think about it, this will result in far more accurate rankings long term.
As for the site, I think it looks fantastic. Far better than others out there, although a small section or referece explaining Glicko and differences with ELO for those too lazy to do it themselves will probably stop a lot of uninformed questions. Could also include a few bullet points such as if tournaments are weighted or not based on the tournament winnings etc.
Once again, great site.
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Awesome site to see how everyone ranks up. Also all I can say is Naniwa fighting for the foreigners and Sheth fighting for america!
What I mean by this is Naniwa is first foreigner on the chart and sheth is the first america.
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On August 10 2011 18:30 FiLmBoT wrote: Awesome site to see how everyone ranks up. Also all I can say is Naniwa fighting for the foreigners and Sheth fighting for america!
What I mean by this is Naniwa is first foreigner on the chart and sheth is the first america.
No, Idra is the first american actually.
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On August 10 2011 17:50 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 17:42 Khaldor wrote:The ranking is, as I already stated, the most accurate there is now. It has to deal with some problems though which is for once the "bubbles" the different servers are in, and the fact that SC2 has only been around for 1 year. As there seems to be quite a lot of confusion and as people are apparently a little bit too lazy to browse through the pages I'll add some answers to those questions later on. Btw. I mentioned Glicko, so how about some of you check out first what it's actually about before stating some random hearsay about the ranking or even claiming ELO would be better? Cheers, Khaldor You say it's the most accurate but that simply isn't true. DRG is not the best player in the world. There isn't even a strong argument for him being so. He lost the MLG he was expected to stomp. There are no foreigners in the top 10 players in the world. How can you actually call this more accurate than the TLPD rankings? most accurate doesn't mean that it's totally accurate.
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Moon has 71% win rate against terrans. ( 30 wins 12 losses ) Dongraegu has 66% win rate against terrans. ( 19 wins 10 losses ) Nestea has 60% win rate against terrans. ( 43 wins 29 losses ) July has 58% win rate against terrans (39 wins 28 losses ) Losira has 48% win rate against terrans. ( 21 wins 23 losses )
Moon has the best ZvT in the world!!
Moon currently has lost 0 'match' against a terran within the last 8+ months. ( He only lose some 'maps') He is currently focusing on wc3 because he is trying to qualify for wcg 2011 kr qualifiers. So don't give shit on him when he underperforms in the gstl ( which he will likely do and lose a terran)
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One year after StarCraft II was released there won't be a totally accurate system. You also have to keep in mind, that this is an international system which makes it even harder as it's not that easy to compare the skill levels of Koreans, Europeans and NA players. They don't face each other that often but as this has been getting a lot better lately the ranking will be able to improve as well of course.
I'll answer to some of the questions now in the OP, please bare with me as I have only 2 hours left before I have to leave for my flight and I can't go into all the details. I'll make sure we'll add a section to the website over time explaining certain points in more details.
Didnt mean to offend anybody btw. Some comments simply frustrate me as we put so much time and effort in this thing, don't take it personal
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On August 10 2011 19:11 Khaldor wrote:One year after StarCraft II was released there won't be a totally accurate system. You also have to keep in mind, that this is an international system which makes it even harder as it's not that easy to compare the skill levels of Koreans, Europeans and NA players. They don't face each other that often but as this has been getting a lot better lately the ranking will be able to improve as well of course. I'll answer to some of the questions now in the OP, please bare with me as I have only 2 hours left before I have to leave for my flight and I can't go into all the details. I'll make sure we'll add a section to the website over time explaining certain points in more details. Didnt mean to offend anybody btw. Some comments simply frustrate me as we put so much time and effort in this thing, don't take it personal
Dude you guys made Moon the ZvT in the entire world.. I'm very happy!!!
http://i596.photobucket.com/albums/tt49/weisin87/smeagol.jpg
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You spent a good amount of time on the algorithm, which I can appreciate for the work involved, but if you don't agree with the system, how is it anything but flawed?
I mean, of course there will be errors based on the fact that, as you say, SC2 is only a year old, but if a vast (VAST) majority of the rankings place players far higher/lower than most everyone would put them, it seems that as complex as the algorithm is, it's not working.
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Little bit of constructive criticism.
Personally I would prefer the prize money to be in USD$ as this is kind of the currency of the world. I would also like to be able to sort the prize money by "All of time" too.
Apart from those minor things this is fantastic, please don't take this is a bashing I like the site.
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Why? Only because you expect another player to be on #1? Most websites use ELO and ELO is simply not adequate. It's used because it is very simple but it neglects a lot of variables. There is no perfect system and of course ours will have to be adjusted over time as well. But right now it's pretty damn good even though some of you might have liked another player on #1 (which is totally understandable).
You shouldn't forget that DRG is a really really extreme example. Even Puma never ranked this high after winning alot of games because his opponents weren't that high in the ranking themselves. One has to find a middleground between players like that and for example GoOdy with more than 1.000 matches. Right now DRG is #1 and truth be told rightly so, he has to prove it though and if he won't be able to do that he will drop in the ranking very very fast.
Edit@slyce: don't worry, I don't Thanks for your post!
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On August 10 2011 19:33 Khaldor wrote:Why? Only because you expect another player to be on #1? Most websites use ELO and ELO is simply not adequate. It's used because it is very simple but it neglects a lot of variables. There is no perfect system and of course ours will have to be adjusted over time as well. But right now it's pretty damn good even though some of you might have liked another player on #1 (which is totally understandable). You shouldn't forget that DRG is a really really extreme example. Even Puma never ranked this high after winning alot of games because his opponents weren't that high in the ranking themselves. One has to find a middleground between players like that and for example GoOdy with more than 1.000 matches. Right now DRG is #1 and truth be told rightly so, he has to prove it though and if he won't be able to do that he will drop in the ranking very very fast. Edit@slyce: don't worry, I don't Thanks for your post!
If i wasn't clear with my last post. Thank you very much for the website. I appreciate it very much!
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Hm reading through my last posts I think they are little bit too aggressive... Sorry guys, wasn't my intention attacking someone. I get a little bit carried away sometimes. I really appreciate the feedback and also the input that's more critical. Would love you to be more open to the idea behind the ranking though
As I already mentioned I expect us to tweak small stuff in the future as well, some problems will only occur over the course of several weeks or months. But right now I'm very confident that this ranking is pretty damn good ^^ just trying to convince you :D
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Ukraine is misspelled on your website
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Funny that each and every one in the team that wins the DotA2 tournament next weekend will get more money than any SC2-player EVER has earned from the game.
Also, this:
On August 10 2011 17:56 Dagobert wrote:
1) Include an option to define time periods for frequencies, i.e. "I want race balance stats for games played during the past 3 months" (I gather this would probably not work for the players' skill ratings due to the algorithm used?)
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On August 10 2011 19:40 Khaldor wrote:Hm reading through my last posts I think they are little bit too aggressive... Sorry guys, wasn't my intention attacking someone. I get a little bit carried away sometimes. I really appreciate the feedback and also the input that's more critical. Would love you to be more open to the idea behind the ranking though As I already mentioned I expect us to tweak small stuff in the future as well, some problems will only occur over the course of several weeks or months. But right now I'm very confident that this ranking is pretty damn good ^^ just trying to convince you :D You'll have problems convincing people that DRG is the best player in the world, because he quite simply is not. No ranking system is perfect though, and this one seems pretty good overall. Love the site, I personally love my stats good work!
Any chance to change the prize money winnings to USD? or at least give us an option to do so.
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On August 10 2011 19:26 Zdrastochye wrote: You spent a good amount of time on the algorithm, which I can appreciate for the work involved, but if you don't agree with the system, how is it anything but flawed?
I mean, of course there will be errors based on the fact that, as you say, SC2 is only a year old, but if a vast (VAST) majority of the rankings place players far higher/lower than most everyone would put them, it seems that as complex as the algorithm is, it's not working.
Or people's opinions are biased due to a lack of seeing the big picture. If you read LR threads you'll see how people's opinions sway hugely based on current form. One day DRG is considered on of the absolute best players in the world and a few week later he's a decent overhyped zerg. I've more respect for statistical ranking system over "most peoples opinions." That doesn't mean it doesn't have room for improvement.
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The funny thing is that the best zerg map isn't even 50%
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Best Zerg Player: DongRaeGu Damn, Artosis would have something to say about that.
8. Naniwa Didn't, uh... CheckPrime just demolish Naniwa?
13. Kas, 14. Stephano, 15. Nerchio Wwwhhhhaaa? Yet HuK is 20th?!
Aside from the rankings, the site looks great!
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On August 10 2011 21:34 kckkryptonite wrote: Best Zerg Player: DongRaeGu Damn, Artosis would have something to say about that.
8. Naniwa Didn't, uh... CheckPrime just demolish Naniwa?
13. Kas, 14. Stephano, 15. Nerchio Wwwhhhhaaa? Yet HuK is 20th?!
Aside from the rankings, the site looks great!
How about spoilering results that are only a couple of hours old?
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Germany442 Posts
Awesome database!
A few suggestions/things that I noticed: - More filter options for the rankings (race, koreans/foreigners) - In HasuObs profile it says that his best and worst map vs zerg ist metalopolis with 47% winrate!? - You have DRG vs sC 3-2 two times in your db - Is there are a way to "downgrade" the points of the foreigners? Recent results showed more than ever before that the koreans are miles ahead.
The ranking system looks far superior to anything I have seen so far! (koreans/foreigners-issue & DRG put aside)
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+ Show Spoiler + I just think you need to do a korean and a foreigner ranking. Because no foreigner is anywhere close to the korean level. It is really weird that anyone else than huk is above any korean
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It seems as though the determination of "best" map is incorrect, as it selected 4-1 and 8-4 over 3-0. Perhaps it's doing a raw +/-, but especially with the way it's presented, win % would be the superior choice.
Is the Glicko-based system running on games or matches? I see that the player win percentages are based on games, and would strongly argue that a player's match record being 5-0 means he's won 100%, even if his set record is 10-3 (77%).
What is the rating period for the Glicko-based calculations? While it may or may not impact the score (I am too unfamiliar with the Glicko system to be sure), it seems to be a useful tidbit for those interested in tracking players by rank.
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Just out of curiosity, what is the ranking system that ATP (tennis) uses? I always thought is should work well in the SC2 context.
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...so, the BEST zerg map is 49%?
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Eh. This ranking system is screwed up. It's pretty obvious that DRG is not #1 and that naniwa, kas, stephano, and nerchio don't belong even near top 15.
I think DRG is extremely overrated but even his biggest fans have got to admit there's no way he can be considered #1 over Nestea at the very least.
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On August 11 2011 03:50 MangoTango wrote: ...so, the BEST zerg map is 49%? The best in 1.3 is 54%
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Awesome, cool, tool. Thanks for your work!
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why dont you guys read the opening post before complaining? I really dont get that...
Well, thanks for all of you that did go through the trouble of reading through it and sharing their opinion here. there was a lot of good feedback already and Ill make sure thatt well further improve on the website in the future.
Having a stopover in Bangkok right now... cant wait to finally reach sydney and christchurch....
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On August 11 2011 18:27 Khaldor wrote: why dont you guys read the opening post before complaining? I really dont get that...
Well, thanks for all of you that did go through the trouble of reading through it and sharing their opinion here. there was a lot of good feedback already and Ill make sure thatt well further improve on the website in the future.
Having a stopover in Bangkok right now... cant wait to finally reach sydney and christchurch.... I tried contacting you to have my question answer directly yet I still haven't heard. I understand your busy I am just hoping you can fill me in on some things. The thing people don't understand is that these systems are never 100% accurate and are incapable of doing so.
However, improvements that I would consider making would be A) Only imputing games that are played in specific leagues or under specific circumstances. You say Goody has 1,000 games played. Most of which are in some nonsensical league against players of considerably lower caliber. (No Pun Intended.) B) The system needs to be aware of opponents. Otherwise you end up having players like Stephano, Kas, Nerchio, ahead of Code S players. C) There has to be a priority over recent results, or you will have a player who was great 9 months ago that has gone stagnant and not played be ahead of current top players. D) Players have to have a minimal games played to even be considered in the ranking.
This is not an emotional post. I have no attachment to any of these players other than an example in my strong belief that the system is flawed but is capable of producing good results.
The reason I suggest these is because the ranking system is skewed. We all know that DRG is not the best player in the world. I am confused as to how a player is supposed to surpass DRG if he would continue to play well. Nestea's most recent results are 18-0 yet he is ranked number 6. He 16-0'd his way through the hardest tournament in the world. If 18 direct wins and a commanding past isn't enough to bolster from 6 forward, what is?
My point is players need to meet a list of specific requirements before even being considered for the ranking.
Aside from that, the work you are doing amazing. The website is beautiful in terms of layout and interface. It is easy to navigate, and the atmosphere is comfortable. I hope you take the criticism as a chance to grow, not as a personal stab. Awesome work.
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After the last GSL results the ranking already changed as you can see. Especially due to MMAs performance. The problem.with the Europeans was already explained in the OP btw
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Don't sweat it too much, Khaldor. It's theoretically impossible to have an objective algorithm that will 100% correlate with the prevailing subjective "expert" opinions. Every major sport has tried, StarCraft won't change that.
Besides, most of the time, objective measures tend to be more right than wrong, anyways.
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That database is tremendous! Hope you'll add some more filters to the money ranking where we could see earnings from one particular country etc.
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@hermana: as I've already mentioned I'm on holidays. I spent 30 of the last 48 hours on a plane and I'm online with my mobile phone. So please excuse me when I'm not keen on answering a post or PM that requires quite a long answer...
I'll answer in time, but right now being on vacation is a little bit more important to me than writing 2 pages about an algorithm. In sure you'll understand that.
Cheers, Khaldor
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Took I while but finally I got a stable internet connection and also some time on my hands to answer the questions @hermana:
I guess a lot of the points you raised in your PM are already answered by the update I did to the opening post. I tried to explain the system briefly and I think it answers a lot of the frequent questions. here are some further updates to your questions though:
is there a priority for more recent matches having an impact on a players ranking over outdated matches? No, why would there be anything like that? The systems takes differences in skilllevel into account and also makes sure players lose points over time if they dont play. By this we make sure, that a player is not ranked at the top of the list for ages even though he only dominated for a period of time and was inactive for quite a while already. The system is set up to show the current player ranking as accurate as possible.
Is the opponents skill taken into account? Yes, of course. We are using a variation of the Glicko System which takes skilllevel into account and also makes sure that there is a second variable determining the potential accuracy of that skilllevel. Something ELO is missing for example. To get the general idea of Glicko have a look at Wikipedia (I also included a link to the opening post)
Who has DRG moved ahead of the list even though Nestea won more games recently? The players DRG faced and defeated were far more "skilled" than the opponents Nestea had do face. Therefore DRG gained more points for defeating them. The system takes the skilllevel of players into account and as DRG participated in some tournaments with a fierce competition he was able to gain a lot of points and therefore moved ahead in the ranking.
As to the question why one should prefer this ranking over TLPD I can only say, that our database is bigger than the database of TL on which that ranking is based on and in addition the ELO system simply doesnt cut it. It's very popular due to its simplicity but the Glicko System is far more exact. And in addition this is an international ranking although I mentioned the current problems of that kind of raking in the OP already.
If you have any additional questions feel free to ask and I'll be happy to answer them as best as I can But please read the OP before you do! :D
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I made more money playing sc2 than some of those guys, am I considered a progamer?
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I don't know if this would be possible but a ranking based on average stream viewers would be really cool. Maybe compare that with # of hours streamed, prize money won, etc.
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On August 26 2011 15:02 Xplitcit wrote: I made more money playing sc2 than some of those guys, am I considered a progamer?
Do you play SC2 with the intent of making a living? Is it your primary source of income? If you answered yes to both these questions, then yes.
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Pretty sure the majority of SC2 players can't live off SC2 solely for their income
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Wow thanks!
So White-ra is top earning foreigner? Awesome
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Nice site!
I would like to suggest a filter for matchup comparison to allow filtering by time (month, year, all) in addition to the patch (which is a great idea).
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We had to limit the filter options as it would put a pretty huge strain on servers if we'd allow for example individual periods of time to be selected.
We are still planning on improving the website and are well aware that there might be a few minor bugs or issues that still need fixing. If you encounter anything let us know, even if I don't reply to a post in particular I'll probably have read it and put the points on our agenda if possible.
Cheers, Khaldor
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Khaldor, anyway to allow switching of currencies? More the merrier, or at least USD/Won
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Hm we might be able to put in that information although the exchange rate would probably be an issue I guess. Is there some website one can automatically get the current exchange rates for the currencies you mentioned (as you can tell I have no clue whatsoever myself). Because updating that manually all the time would be quite a pain in the ass ^^
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I'm very impressed by the Skill Ranking and I say that spending on average an hour/day on TLPD. Of course once you go down the list a bit you notice that the rankings of European players are a bit inflated because they get to play a lot more documented games in online cups, but I can't think of a way to introduce the idea of a regional skill gap to such a system. (other than straight up racist nerfing foreigners)
If you look as much at ELO as I do, you'd be aware of how useless of a statistic it is. As an example, 2 weeks ago TLPD considered Goody the best TvP player and still ranks him above Thorzain in that MU.
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Events as the current MLG help a lot with ensuring a better accuracy when it comes down to comparing european, north american and korean players. The more big events the database includes, the more accurate the ranking is going to be. I'm therefore pretty excited to see DRG perform at that particular event
@montana: whereas the amount of games certainly playes a role in ranking (as you can see at the Glicko explanations). The reason for the europeans in the top positions of the ranking is more related to the fact that so far there were only a few comparisons between koreans and foreigners. But whereas in Broodwar koreans seemed to be unbeatable in Sc2 at least some of the europeans seem to be up for the task as we could see in recent tournaments (even though the koreans are still dominating, dont get me wrong :D)
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On August 10 2011 21:34 kckkryptonite wrote: Best Zerg Player: DongRaeGu Damn, Artosis would have something to say about that.
8. Naniwa Didn't, uh... CheckPrime just demolish Naniwa?
13. Kas, 14. Stephano, 15. Nerchio Wwwhhhhaaa? Yet HuK is 20th?!
Aside from the rankings, the site looks great!
I think you can make a fairly convincing argument that Stephano and Nerchio > Huk in the rankings. If you've been watching their ZvTs, you'll be amazed, they don't seem to lose against Euro Terrans. Checkprime may have beaten Naniwa, but Nani is the more consistent player overall. In my opinion these ratings are accurate. Putting DRG above Nestea is a little questionable though...
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Great site and amazing work
Love it Khaldor!
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Already explained why Nestea is behind DRG. The main reason is the amount of high skilled players DRG was able to beat lately, and quite convincing at that. The ranking does not give a picture of the all time achievements in terms of winning tournaments but tries to tell you who's the best player out there right now.
Some tournaments are won by players that were probably not the best in a particular tournament, simply by having an easier group/grid/whatever. DRG of course has to prove himself in order to maintain that position in the ranking but his results are very convincing so far. Don't get me wrong, Nestea is a beast, but most of his recent matches took place against supposedly "weaker" players.
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It would be great if you could add an "all time" section to the prize money, displaying total prize money won over all the data you currently have.
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Interesting page, the money bit is a bit inaccurate i think it misses out some smaller stuff but meh
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I love the website, but not using ELO is nuts. It's been proven as the best ranking system by far as a long time.
Everyone in their right mind knows that DRG would be lucky to make even top 10 in the world, let alone #1.
Glicko is a terrible system when it comes to SC2, because RD has ZERO effect on current players. Just because you don't see them in tournaments, doesn't mean they aren't playing.
So Nestea plays maybe 5 sets in a month because he only plays in GSL. Therefor his RD is insanely higher than someone like Huk or MC who plays everywhere. Yet when Nestea isn't traveling he is playing 8+ hours a day against better opponents . The system you are using doesn't make sense.
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On August 10 2011 07:16 Khaldor wrote:
Even though I'll leave tomorrow for my holidays it'd be great if you could provide us with some feedback on the website!
kind regards, Khaldor
How long you going to Australia for? I'm about to head down there myself, heh.
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On August 27 2011 15:45 5unrise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 21:34 kckkryptonite wrote: Best Zerg Player: DongRaeGu Damn, Artosis would have something to say about that.
8. Naniwa Didn't, uh... CheckPrime just demolish Naniwa?
13. Kas, 14. Stephano, 15. Nerchio Wwwhhhhaaa? Yet HuK is 20th?!
Aside from the rankings, the site looks great! I think you can make a fairly convincing argument that Stephano and Nerchio > Huk in the rankings. If you've been watching their ZvTs, you'll be amazed, they don't seem to lose against Euro Terrans. Checkprime may have beaten Naniwa, but Nani is the more consistent player overall. In my opinion these ratings are accurate. Putting DRG above Nestea is a little questionable though...
It doesn't matter if nerchio and stephano had 99% win rates
Their results have no weight unless they play koreans, which huk does.
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On August 27 2011 21:48 SafeAsCheese wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2011 15:45 5unrise wrote:On August 10 2011 21:34 kckkryptonite wrote: Best Zerg Player: DongRaeGu Damn, Artosis would have something to say about that.
8. Naniwa Didn't, uh... CheckPrime just demolish Naniwa?
13. Kas, 14. Stephano, 15. Nerchio Wwwhhhhaaa? Yet HuK is 20th?!
Aside from the rankings, the site looks great! I think you can make a fairly convincing argument that Stephano and Nerchio > Huk in the rankings. If you've been watching their ZvTs, you'll be amazed, they don't seem to lose against Euro Terrans. Checkprime may have beaten Naniwa, but Nani is the more consistent player overall. In my opinion these ratings are accurate. Putting DRG above Nestea is a little questionable though... It doesn't matter if nerchio and stephano had 99% win rates Their results have no weight unless they play koreans, which huk does. Nerchio beat huk 2-0 at IEM and Stephano and Kas both did better than Huk. Maybe this ranking is better than you think.
e: from frontpage: 5. How come some Europeans are ranked so high? Most koreans play in some kind of asian "bubble". They don't face foreigners that often. For this reason it's very hard for an international ranking to compare players from Korea to players from Europe or NA. The same problem occurs when you try to compare the Battle.net Ladder for different servers. This problem will be minimized in time as right now a lot of korean players attend european or american tournaments far more often and players like naniwa and thorzain travel to korea to compete in the korean leagues.
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Obviously a lot of work has been put into creating this, so thanks for that, a lot of people in this thread are coming off as ungratefully bashing this system which is unfair. But it would be good to address possible sources that may skew results or even modifying the algorithm so that it generates a more accurate view of what can be considered facts (DRG not being the #1 player), for example weighting certain matches / victory more than others (depending on the event / prize money at stake / match-up / more so than just considering who was playing who. The where when and why are very important).
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What some people don't get at all is that Nestea is not the #1 player in the world only because you would like him to be. This is an objective ranking while your opinions are clearly subjective. I'm not saying Nestea is bad and neither that the algorythm is perfect as of yet. But a lot of people in here have a set opinion and everything that differs from is is "wrong".
[b]@figga[/b}: could you please explain to me why ELO is supposed to be better? If you really spent some time analysing both systems I can't imagine how you'd come to that conclusion. Nestea btw. played MORE(!) games than for example Puma or DRG. And as you might have found out already it's not like players lose 100.000 points if they don't play for a day or two.
@tuk: why is the prize money inaccurate? there might be some tournaments missing right now (our people are still in the process of completing the DB), but even in the current status this should be the most accurate website in terms of this ranking (correct me if I missed something).
Kind regards, Khaldor
PS: I haven't been to Australia actually except for a short stop before I headed to NZ. Right now I'm in Thailand (@StarStruck)
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On August 29 2011 12:22 Khaldor wrote: What some people don't get at all is that Nestea is not the #1 player in the world only because you would like him to be. This is an objective ranking while your opinions are clearly subjective. I'm not saying Nestea is bad and neither that the algorythm is perfect as of yet. But a lot of people in here have a set opinion and everything that differs from is is "wrong". (@StarStruck)
I love the site, but the rankings are just as subjective as my opinion, i.e. not objective. Why? Since the algorithm is written by someone, that someone needs to adopt their values on what makes a good player into the algorithm, hence making the core of it subjective.
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On August 29 2011 12:38 Nightbiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2011 12:22 Khaldor wrote: What some people don't get at all is that Nestea is not the #1 player in the world only because you would like him to be. This is an objective ranking while your opinions are clearly subjective. I'm not saying Nestea is bad and neither that the algorythm is perfect as of yet. But a lot of people in here have a set opinion and everything that differs from is is "wrong". (@StarStruck) I love the site, but the rankings are just as subjective as my opinion, i.e. not objective. Why? Since the algorithm is written by someone, that someone needs to adopt their values on what makes a good player into the algorithm, hence making the core of it subjective.
That's simply tautology. By that definition, no field in Statistics can be objective. Most in statistics accept that an ranking methodology is sufficiently "objective" as long as the input variables are numeric, or at least quantifiable. Of course, an algorithm being objective does not necessarily correlate with being good or correct.
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Best protoss map is with a 49% winrate. Protoss doesn't seem to have any favored maps. I find this interesting, maybe the recent balance issues has to do with mapmaking more than racial characteristics.
Using latest patch as a filter, obviously.
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Tremendous website. I'm going to be spending a lot of time on this.
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Interesting money statistics. Yeah I've seen them before, but not in awhile. Not a bad chunk of change MC and Nestea made in only half a year.
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Wow this is a great website!
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On August 10 2011 07:24 Chargelot wrote: Your site says that Zerg win 49% of the time on Metalopolis. Blizzard says that's actually 60%+. >.< 5000 games doesn't seem to be a great statistical medium.
remember this accounts for when ZvT was really OP with reapers and 2 rax rush etc. as well.
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cool website. especially enjoyed the matchup statistics breakdown by patch number
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@nightbiscuit: if you argue like this you have to admit that the same logic applies to ALL the ranking systems out there. I actually prefer a system that uses the same non-biased logic for every player participating in it than relying on the obviously biased opinion of a single individual.
Some weeks ago everyone was outraged at the idea of DRG even placed in the Top10 of this ranking. Since then he proved in every tournament he participated in (as well as the GSTL) that he definitely belongs there.
And as I already promised in the start: with each major tournament that features koreans as well as foreigners the ranking is getting more accurate. If people have a close look at the opening post I doubt there'll be a lot to argue with most of the ranking positions (once gain: that ranking may not be perfect but is so far the most accurate there is imho).
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The rankings are a great source of objective comparison between the players that we actually have good info on. Obviously there are many Korean and Chinese pros that we havent really seen much of that, by rights, should be there, but this is easily the best thing we have at the moment.
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this is so wrong on so many levels
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Australia8532 Posts
On August 29 2011 15:26 Grampz wrote: this is so wrong on so many levels Don't just spout one liners without any argument
Please go on to list how many "levels" this might be wrong on?
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Really useful resource! Keep up the good work.
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Would there be a way to have different tournaments weighted differently based on prestige and difficulty? Kind of like in tennis where the four Grand Slams are given more weight than the lesser tours. I would say maybe the GSL could be considered the equivalent of Wimbledon in the world of SC2.
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@redemption: I thought about it but to be honest im not quite sure whether that would raelly improve a ranking. First of all one would have to determine which is going to be considered a major tournament (where to you cross the line?) and in addition I'm not completely sure it would be fair towards a lot of players.
I'm still a little bit unsure if that would make sense. Would one take the group stages into consideration as well even though a lot of the games might not be more exciting than the final of a weekly cup? Maybe some additional opinions on that matter would help....
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How are you handling MLG extended series? On Huk's page I see you have him beating Trimaster 2:0 and 4:1 as separate entries, when really it should be 2:0 and 2:1, or just 4:1.
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Usually there will be only one match for an extended series. I don't know if there was a mistake with the match you mentioned or what the reason behind the double entry is. I know for sure, that the staff was waiting for some information being released by MLG for other matches (e.g. in regards to maps).
I forwarded the question to one of the staffmembers and asked him to give you an answer on that matter.
Kind regards, Khaldor
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What's the deal with the scale of the points? Right now the top two are:
1. Bomber Korea 35290 2. Mvp Korea 34492
Glicko ratings are usually on the same scale as Elo numbers, where players have ratings around the 1000-2500 range. Also the difference of their ratings is almost 800, normally that would mean Bomber is favored to win over 99% of his games against MVP.
So are you using a different scale?
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Also, forgot to mention I love the sites. I am a big fan of using statistics more in all sports, and am glad to see a movement toward this in e-sports as well. Someone come up with some SC2 sabremetrics!
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What would be nice is to get MU statistics for a specific period of time like : the last 2 months, from january to march, etc
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@KillerDuckz: As I've mentioned in the opening post there were some adjustments to the algorythm. We actually talked to the developer of Glicko when doing so which is one of the reasons you'll experience some slight differences.
In regards of the scale I have to admit that I don't actually know exactly why we are working with these numbers. We talked about using a different scale but in the end its all the same. Whether we divide the numbers displayed by for example 10 and calculate with digits that are not displayed or do it like this doesnt really matter in the end.
If it's really important to you (as I said: it doesnt change anything in regards to the algorythm itself, it's just a matter of display) I can talk to our specialist and ask him to answer that question in more detail.
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On August 29 2011 13:58 Khaldor wrote: @nightbiscuit: if you argue like this you have to admit that the same logic applies to ALL the ranking systems out there. I actually prefer a system that uses the same non-biased logic for every player participating in it than relying on the obviously biased opinion of a single individual.
Some weeks ago everyone was outraged at the idea of DRG even placed in the Top10 of this ranking. Since then he proved in every tournament he participated in (as well as the GSTL) that he definitely belongs there.
And as I already promised in the start: with each major tournament that features koreans as well as foreigners the ranking is getting more accurate. If people have a close look at the opening post I doubt there'll be a lot to argue with most of the ranking positions (once gain: that ranking may not be perfect but is so far the most accurate there is imho).
All I'm saying is that just because you're using an algorithm to calculate the best player, doesn't mean that it's more precise than someone saying that NesTea is the best player because he has won the most GSL tournaments. You have the statistics to back your claims up? Well so do people who say that NesTea is the best player.
It would be objective, however, if you say that "this player is the best player under these conditions," which you to some extent already do. The reason I reacted is because you claim that your method is objective while using GSL as the only measurement of skill is subjective while both ARE equally subjective/objective, as both "methods" are based purely on statistics.
Edit: I do, however, want to point out that I think the whole ranking discussion is getting a little too much attention as the site offers a whole lot more than just skill rankings.
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This awesome :D Saving these pages for discussion / argument fuel.
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For once I think you are splitting hairs to be honest, but even so I disagree with your logic. Of course you can say that due to the fact that Nestea won the GSL two times he's the best player. But if you compare that claim to the ranking thats based on more than 20.000 matches I'd say the latter is far more reliable.
But in the end that probably comes down to personal preferences. And while you might find a fair number of people backing up your statement about Nestea being the best player you'll have a lot of trouble putting together a ranking of lets say 20-30 players based on such statements. Our ranking is not only about stating who's number one right now, but more about providing a list as accurate as possible in which the pro players are ranked.
Don't get me wrong btw. I get your point :D I'm just saying this discussion right now is focussed a little bit too much on who's the best player instead of how good the ranking itself actually is...
Cheers, Khaldor
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Sweet. I've been waiting for a new money list.
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the problem with all those rankings is that neastea is the best by far but doesn't play as much in foreign events and therefor doesn't get "freewins" such as Bomber and DRG in MLG
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@RedDeckWins
We have to split MLG Extended Series into two matches:
The first match will be the original Bo3 with its maps. The Extended series is - like the mentioned HuK game - another match with the overall score, but without the mapscores of the first Bo3 (our statistics are based on the maps, not the overall results). We know that this is not ideal but we could not do it otherwise for some reasons:
If we devide it into two seperate series (2xbo3 or 1xbo3/1xbo5) there is the possibility of opponent a winning bo3 #1 2:0 and losing the second series 2:3, meaning he will win the extended series 4:3. Thats not an option because we have a betting system behind our matches.
Upgrading the original bo3 to an extended series would mean that there would only be one match in our database where there should be two - for betting and for logical reasons.
hope its understandable =)
greetz Andorson - Coverage Staff
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This is interesting to look at, especially the prize money chart. Some of these guys get quite a bit of euros in prize money. Makes me wonder how much they get for salaries.
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I think it would be neat if there were graphs so we could see how a progamers rank/rating fluctuates over time. Sort of like a stock market graph.
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First of all I give huge props!!! This is so useful.
Frequently I blame balance issues on maps, but what is amazing is the Protoss has a losing record on every map in path 1.3. Protoss's best map is Xel Naga Caverns with a 49% win rate. I thought Protoss would have least have a winning record on Tal Darim.
EDIT: I think there might be a bug. It claimed that Shattered Temple is Protoss and Terran and Zerg's best map in the Beta. I do not trust the 49% number about Xel Naga.
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Is there any way to make matches weighted in terms of tournament significance (if this is already done then sorry!)?
The Koreans are significantly ahead of foreigners as it currently stands, but it seems the amount of foreign tournaments somewhat overly inflate foreigner rankings. I know you somewhat cover this in point 5 of the FAQs, but it doesn't seem to take into account, for example, that winning GSL Code S (or even Code A) is harder than taking down an MLG circuit tourney.
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Any chance of adding an option for the prize money rankings to be in USDollars? Would make it a lot easier for some viewers. Of course I can go to currency converters, but still, an option would be nice
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The issue with the USD already occured and I'll talk to my developer as soon as I'm back from my holidays. Right now I guess it should be possible if there's a website where one can get current exchange rate every day (which I guess shouldnt be a problem).
As to the matter of weighting tournaments like MGL higher I've already contributed a post where I ask you guy to give me further input. I'm not entirely sure if that really makes a lot of sense.
Cheers, Khaldor
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I personally do not think larger tournaments should be weighed more. If the goal is determining who the best players are then all games can be given equal weight unless there is reason to believe that players are not playing hard in smaller tournaments?
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On September 03 2011 00:11 meadbert wrote: I personally do not think larger tournaments should be weighed more. If the goal is determining who the best players are then all games can be given equal weight unless there is reason to believe that players are not playing hard in smaller tournaments?
Well, the only reason I brought that up is that I assumed the larger, more prestigious tournaments have more money on the line and more publicity (huge audiences watching you play live), and as a result, there is more pressure on the player to perform. I feel that the players that do perform well under this type of environment should be rewarded more for their victory than someone that wins a small $100 online tournament from the comfort of his bedroom while wearing nothing but his underwear and munching on a bag of Doritos.
To go back to my tennis analogy, there's no reason to think players are not playing as hard in the smaller Masters Tours compared to the Grand Slams. They play their heart out every match. But everyone recognizes the huge size, prestige, and monetary compensation associated with the Grand Slams, and so they are weighted more.
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On August 30 2011 14:42 Khaldor wrote: @redemption: I thought about it but to be honest im not quite sure whether that would raelly improve a ranking. First of all one would have to determine which is going to be considered a major tournament (where to you cross the line?) and in addition I'm not completely sure it would be fair towards a lot of players.
I'm still a little bit unsure if that would make sense. Would one take the group stages into consideration as well even though a lot of the games might not be more exciting than the final of a weekly cup? Maybe some additional opinions on that matter would help....
I thought about it a bit too, and I'm thinking maybe you can objectively determine the size/prestige of a tournament by the amount of money that stands to be won? I don't know if it's possible to incorporate that into the algorithm, but if you can, that seems to be a reasonably fair way to determine the relative "importance" of a tournament. High pressure victories with lots of money on the line should be appropriately rewarded, and this way, every match that's added to the database will take into account the level of pressure dealt with by the players. Your thoughts on this?
To address the second part of your question, I am not entirely sure on this either. I'm not saying this is perfect, but you could incorporate this "weighted" value based on tournament prestige starting at the quarterfinals of each tournament (completely arbitrary). The beginning stages of different tournaments will all be weighted equally, so no one gets an advantage for simply showing up to a more prestigious tournament and winning one match. However, getting deeper into such a tournament would give you an advantage in points.
Or you could be absolutely completely unbiased and do everything by looking solely at the amount of money to be won. If winning in the group stages of the GSL pays more than winning in the finals of a weekly cup, then so be it. This would be more in line with your emphasis on objectivity that you've been making throughout these posts.
Or some other combination of factors that you could think of. I'm not saying one is more right than the other. Just throwing ideas out there for you to consider.
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The weighting issue is something I have been thinking about for a while. My personal opinion eventually shifted towards to non-weighting side of things.
- There lacks existing, community agreed upon definition of major/minor tournaments. The closest of which is the BIG EVENT calender on TL. Frankly, even that is rather a crap-shoot.
- I been keeping an eye on the TLPD Elos closely for the past few months, and noticed that the Elo values have tendency to precede reputation and major tournament wins, especially in the EU arena, where weekly cups are much more prolific. I suspect the same pattern can be observed even more clearly with this improved algorithm.
- The discrepency between korean and foreigner rating are as much result of regional isolation as the simple lack of recorded games in the Korean side. There're still only 2 major tournaments (GSTL or GSL) for a korean player to participate in, so if they're knocked out early, that's it for datapoints for a month.
No amount of weighting will resolve this clear lack of data from the Korean side. Giving greater weight to GSTL and GSL will not give a cleaner rating, but instead magnify the variance that is already fairly terrible, nature intrinsic to the Korean arena. This is a mathematical limitation inherent to any ordering problem, as we learned information theory 101.
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Re: prestige
In my attempts to find a proper projection algorithm for SC2, I have experimented with several methods to account for tournament prestige. What I learned from these experience is that while certain types of players will play better in different tournament types (large or small, group or elimination, online or offline), these factors do not have a strong effect of the actual player skill rating. They are simply an added variance around the skill curve.
In other word, I find projections becomes more accurate if we disregard tournament type while making a rating calculation, then use that rating and account for for tournament type during the projection phase.
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This site is worth it for the player comparison screens alone. Great job!!
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Thanks for your comments in regards to the major event issue. I really like the posts in that regard and especially love that you name pros and cons. I personally am very sure that we would be able to implement that. I would really appreciate more opinions though.
Maybe I'll simply create another topic about that matter because I think it gets kinda lost in this thread, dont you?
Cheers Khaldor
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Hey, great job with this site! I use it very often, because its self explaining and you can look up nearly every pro
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Some things I plan to implement on the website in the future (some of them after ideas resulting from this thread):
- Expanding on the streamfollow option that is used
- option to change currency in USD
Those are at least the two things I want to have changed next. It might take some time though as we are currently moving the studio to a different location and are therefore pretty busy.
I'll keep you guys posted
Cheers, Khaldor
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After the last few weeks I'm really interested if people still think that DRG was highly overrated in our ranking I guess as many might have realized the ranking may not be perfect just yet but still shows pretty accurate (in contradiction to ELO) the current skilllevel of most players.
We'll be doing some changes (based on the input in this thread) in the future though. I'll keep you guys posted.
PS: watching DRG at GSL right now is nothing short of beautiful if you are a zergplayer :D
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On September 28 2011 18:54 Khaldor wrote:After the last few weeks I'm really interested if people still think that DRG was highly overrated in our ranking I guess as many might have realized the ranking may not be perfect just yet but still shows pretty accurate (in contradiction to ELO) the current skilllevel of most players. We'll be doing some changes (based on the input in this thread) in the future though. I'll keep you guys posted. PS: watching DRG at GSL right now is nothing short of beautiful if you are a zergplayer :D
What shocks me the most is this section : http://www.sc2charts.net/en/edb?zone=7
I am not sure how to interpret Goody as "best terran player", Mana as "best protoss player", and nerchio as "best zerg player".
Is it some kind of inside joke ? .
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On September 28 2011 19:06 ArhK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 18:54 Khaldor wrote:After the last few weeks I'm really interested if people still think that DRG was highly overrated in our ranking I guess as many might have realized the ranking may not be perfect just yet but still shows pretty accurate (in contradiction to ELO) the current skilllevel of most players. We'll be doing some changes (based on the input in this thread) in the future though. I'll keep you guys posted. PS: watching DRG at GSL right now is nothing short of beautiful if you are a zergplayer :D What shocks me the most is this section : http://www.sc2charts.net/en/edb?zone=7I am not sure how to interpret Goody as "best terran player", Mana as "best protoss player", and nerchio as "best zerg player". Is it some kind of inside joke ? .
You are only looking at Patch 1.4 right now. You have to change it if you want an accurate picture (top right dropdown).
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nerchio for the best zerg of 1.3 haha
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On September 28 2011 19:12 kazie wrote: nerchio for the best zerg of 1.3 haha
Just saw that as well, there has to be some kind of bug. That statistic is definitely not based on the progamer ranking ^^ I'll have it checked out and it will be fixed in the next update Has to be some old formula we used in the betastages of the website, although his 1.3 stats are pretty impressive.
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On September 28 2011 19:14 Khaldor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 19:12 kazie wrote: nerchio for the best zerg of 1.3 haha Just saw that as well, there has to be some kind of bug. That statistic is definitely not based on the progamer ranking ^^ I'll have it checked out and it will be fixed in the next update Has to be some old formula we used in the betastages of the website, although his 1.3 stats are pretty impressive.
lol poor nerchio. also under replays tab, it says Topreplays (14 days). i guess it might be intentional? edit: actually the ones below arent spaced either
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On September 28 2011 19:08 Khaldor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 19:06 ArhK wrote:On September 28 2011 18:54 Khaldor wrote:After the last few weeks I'm really interested if people still think that DRG was highly overrated in our ranking I guess as many might have realized the ranking may not be perfect just yet but still shows pretty accurate (in contradiction to ELO) the current skilllevel of most players. We'll be doing some changes (based on the input in this thread) in the future though. I'll keep you guys posted. PS: watching DRG at GSL right now is nothing short of beautiful if you are a zergplayer :D What shocks me the most is this section : http://www.sc2charts.net/en/edb?zone=7I am not sure how to interpret Goody as "best terran player", Mana as "best protoss player", and nerchio as "best zerg player". Is it some kind of inside joke ? . You are only looking at Patch 1.4 right now. You have to change it if you want an accurate picture (top right dropdown).
I know that good sir. Still, I found that pretty..."interesting" to say the least. Also, as stated previously, Nerchio top zerg of patch 1.3 is funny.
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Seems veeeery strange that Nestea's little protege, Losira, is ahead of him in this ranking. I love Losira though so if he is ahead of Nestea then woo!
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On September 28 2011 21:58 MattBarry wrote: Seems veeeery strange that Nestea's little protege, Losira, is ahead of him in this ranking. I love Losira though so if he is ahead of Nestea then woo! maybe it's because Losira was at MLG. The foreigners and Koreaner players who played in foreign tournaments are ranked higher than players who played only in Korea.
(higher than they deserve)
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It's because they won more games and against stronger opponents. You can check their matchhistory in their individual profile.
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Very nice set of data. Why o why do my eyes always look straight for idra?
I'm not even a zerg player. Is he that fascinating?
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Intestesting statistics. Im surprised all the kroeans place so high on the "earned this year" part. Guess their part taking and a continious GSL helps tho.
Im missing the country ladders. Would be nice in the future. Cheers!
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I'm not sure the best map for each race is working properly. If you go to patch 1.2, it shows all 3 races having Xel'Naga Caverns as their best map, despite both terran and zerg having <50% winrates on it. I think it doesn't take into account non-blizzard maps, as the only other maps I've seen in those categories are Metalopolis and Shakuras Plateau.
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I personally believe that the best maps got selected with that extra-special-forgot-its-name-system the player ranking is done with so since a majority of the games were played on XNC, it has the highest score and is therefore best map even though it obviously can't be At least i dont believe that Metalopolis is best map for zerg player with more losses than wins total on it
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Nifty statistics. Thank you for this.
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Awesome site :D I'm sure everyone's noticed, but...
Top 15 Progamers by Race: T Z T T T Z Z P T T Z T Z Z T
I don't even play Protoss and I'm weeping for that race xD Show 'em some love<3
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Awesome website!
I'm really interested in statistical analysis, so I'm probably going to be using your website in the future. Perhaps an interesting figure to get that shouldn't be too hard to compile (maybe? maybe not?): length of games?
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In order to calculate that you'd need the replays and there are too many tournaments that don't actually release those :-(
The best maps are not based on the ranking system by the way. That would not even be possible.
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Switzerland2892 Posts
Some (maybe all I don't know) of the players prizemoney hasn't been updated. Is it normal or is there a problem?
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Just nitpicking.
You have SeleCT up there as a Korean when he's actually an American. I know he's technically Korean in that he was born and raised there, but he plays and practices in the United States now.
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there you have it
pvt is VERY GOOD for p zvt is also QUITE GOOD for z
maybe blizz will now start buffing t and nerfing p? would be great
EDIT: thank you in advance blizzard since you are gonna listen to me for sure
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On October 02 2011 07:50 Vindicare605 wrote: Just nitpicking.
You have SeleCT up there as a Korean when he's actually an American. I know he's technically Korean in that he was born and raised there, but he plays and practices in the United States now.
Well in that case he would have to change HuK from Canadian to Korean and a number of other players. NaNiwa, SaSe, Major, etc.
I think nationality is the best way to do it.
On October 02 2011 07:53 sVnteen wrote:there you have it pvt is VERY GOOD for p zvt is also QUITE GOOD for z maybe blizz will now start buffing t and nerfing p? would be great EDIT: thank you in advance blizzard since you are gonna listen to me for sure
What the hell are you talking about? TvZ is 53.67% in favor of terran and TvP is 51.01% in favor of terran. Guess by your logic we need to nerf terran?
P.S. thank you blizz I know you will listen to me
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On October 02 2011 07:53 sVnteen wrote:there you have it pvt is VERY GOOD for p zvt is also QUITE GOOD for z maybe blizz will now start buffing t and nerfing p? would be great EDIT: thank you in advance blizzard since you are gonna listen to me for sure
Nerf protoss, the seemingly weakest race in the upper echelons of progaming, and buff terran the absolute dominant race? Nice conclusions.
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Interesting, but seriously wtf is the programmer ranking based on? Popularity, no idra is too low. Skill, no idra is too high... Sorry to use idra as a gauging point but I really dont get the system.
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your ranking in my opinion makes much much more sense than the ELO rankings... i mean, i like SaSe (am even in his fanclub), but if you ask me considering what the foreigerns show at the moment your ranking gives us more accurate results. it's hard to compare and maybe sase is really the strongest at the moment, but he has too few showings. just like i don't think major is in the top5 by that.
that being said, a country based ranking would be sweet for the top countrys.
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Best Zerg map: Metalopolis Av. Win ratio: 49%
Lol
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I think the site counts the most wins, not the highest ratio as a "best map per race".
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amazing website. So interesting to see how much propalyers win during the year.
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I like the Progamer Ranking very much. But there seems to be a bug. If you select patch 1.4 e.g. and then want to see page 2 (below rank 50), it switches back to the general ranking (not the 1.4 patch anymore).
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I'll make sure it gets fixed. There are still some minor glitches with links and stuff like that. We are horribly busy right now with some other websites we are developing but I'll make sure that all those things you've mentioned won't be forgotten
I actually like the ranking more and more every day. It's pretty accurate and the more games are being added to the database the better it gets
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