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On October 19 2012 16:49 Satiinifi wrote: Did he just complain about pvz, as far as I've seen pvz is 10 times more balanced than tvz or tvp, havent seen a single protoss or zerg mention pvt as his hardest matchup in past 8 months, thats something to worry about in itself.
Not saying that pvz wouldnt look ridiculous aswell.
I think most Zergs are pretty comfortable PvT.
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Damnit SaSe stop this stupid bullshit, you're ruining your image to a point where it becomes painful to watch.
You're bad at PvZ we get it, but don't act like every Protoss was below 50% vs Zergs, that's what Bronze to Masters players do ( I'm plat and I complain about these f*cking storms, or these f*cking fungals everyday ).
You're a pro, you have an image to manage !
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So basicly what I read is that you desire massive buffs while nerfing the rest?
Errr... you may be SaSe, but still....
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Why PvZ Ratio in korea is like P 60% vs Z since few months ? Like I mean your whole point is to redesign units and stuff because you don't want to improove , to redesign stuff according to your style. The only points and issues I agree are late game, this whole deathball battle makes no sense and doesn't represent the spirit of what a rts is. But lings runby, why not ? That's something you should be worried about, it's real time strategy, why in the world they would let you wall-in and be safe other than letting you be greedy and lazy. Immo sentry stalker is like what represent the most broken part imo, seing Parting doing this build over and over and winning with it quite quite easily. Another issue is wall-ins, on T side, P side even Z side, that shouldn't exist, just to make the game more dynamic and less hurp durp, every1 can chrono probes, chrono upgrades, stay on 2 base and follow the easy 70 steps of his favorite player build and be completly ignorant of what the game actually is.
Anyways, no matter if your pro or not, it's always easier to blame game designs, game balances than ourself, while many koreans try to focus on the work harder attitude and it seems that's working because P looking kinda scary in KR.
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I defy anyone to tell me lategame PvZ is anything other than Zerg favoured. Go ahead, tell me how Protoss is supposed to play from that position. Sase may be wrong about Spawning Pool timings, but he's spot on about Infestor/BL.
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I do feel that there should be some animation like cloak for burrow movement.
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On October 19 2012 11:56 IshinShishi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 11:55 blade55555 wrote: I like how you seem to think PvZ problems are throughout the whole game when in fact the only time protoss is at a disadvantage in today's pvz now of days is the late game with proper bl/corr/infestor control. Early - mid game protoss is incredibly powerful.
Also nerfing the infestor would be fine but you would HAVE to buff zerg to compensate for the nerf. You have to realize the infestor is the only reason zergs can win games zvp and zvt. If you nerfed the infestor you would have to compensate somewhere else otherwise zergs would never win zvp/zvt.
I know how frustrating the infestor is (Force fields just as frustrating fyi) but it's also the only unit that makes zerg not underpowered and allows us to win games. Life disagrees. And he makes top tier terrans look extremely silly with his disagreement.
Sase isn't talking about PvT (because protoss is fucking strong in that match-up) he is only talking PvZ, so how does making Terran look silly apply at all? Blade has a point, Sase is bitching about things that were a problem in early game BW PvZ, did he even play BW?
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On October 20 2012 00:52 deathzz wrote: I do feel that there should be some animation like cloak for burrow movement.
THERE IS
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This match-up would be extremely difficult for zerg without infestors or with significantly changed infestors. A fix would have to be something subtle like IT cost 35 instead of 25 energy.
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Sase just explained all the protoss' problems that every P has been complaining about. pls FIX the game
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On October 19 2012 11:38 SaSe wrote: *Infested terrans and broodlings gets upgrades. It's really powerful for 0 food units. Agree with this. IT are super strong when upgraded and can be massed in huge amounts. If you compare them to autoturrets (that can't be massed even with mass raven because they require so much space) it makes even more sense.
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On October 20 2012 00:52 deathzz wrote: I do feel that there should be some animation like cloak for burrow movement.
There is, but it's very subtle unlike cloak.
As for Sase's post, I agree with the issue of the whole mobile 'static defense'. It's not like you can wait for zerg to come and engage you, away from his spine wall, because they'll just creep the wall to you instead. It's actually rather sad that the only way to stop Infester/BL/corruptor/spine is to be everywhere the army isn't, or win with a spell that shouldn't exist in the first place.
I also agree on the mothership removal. Some of the ideas for the oracle are interesting, but they'd have to be extensively tried. The rest I'm pretty iffy on. The free unit idea is very core to the swarm style of zerg so I can't see nerfing it as a good thing.
As for the infester, so long as fungal has root and can be easily chained, and infested terrans cost 0 supply, they will be in every matchup and every strategy. There is no reason to bypass them; why would I waste supply and resources on anything but infesters when I can make a unit that not only roots my opponent, but creates supplyless, high dps units at the cost of small amounts of energy? As toss, if I could trade energy and only energy for units, I'd be a happy happy executor. I know, HT technically can, but storm doesn't root, and its speed makes it a suicide stormer.
I think the infested terrans are fine, but the root is definitely a problem in my mind. I'd be fine if it did twice as much damage, provided it didn't root. A slowing effect would be good too.
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Austria24413 Posts
On October 20 2012 00:09 Gnusnu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 22:36 DarkLordOlli wrote:On October 19 2012 22:18 Gnusnu wrote:On October 19 2012 22:05 DarkLordOlli wrote: When zerg players start saying that protoss is too weak in PvZ, you know it's real. Looking at DRG, the best zerg in the world. I am failing to see how this qualifies DRG as a balance expert. He's not being paid nor is it his job to design the game. His job is to be successful regardless of problems. DRG may drive the car but he still wouldn't know how to build it. The point I'm trying to make is that being good at starcraft 2 and knowing the inner workings of it are not mutually inclusive qualities. While I absolutely 100% agree with you, it is kind of missing the point. DRG is not making any balance suggestions, simply stating that in his experience as someone who plays the game more than 99% of everybody else, he feels like protoss is too weak against zerg. And since he plays the game this much and has such good understanding of the game (obviously, he's damn good), he is absolutely qualified to judge overall balance in my opinion. You're right DRG isn't making any balance suggestions. So why is it ok for Sase (or you) to do? Which one of these leads to more reasonable discussion? A: "I think Protoss being designed with more specialized units has lead to a lack of more well rounded units to fill the gap in the Protoss arsenal. This becomes a more apparent problem in the face of certain enemy unit compositions." B: "Remove forcefields because they make Immortal all-ins too strong." The latter example is all over the OP. The former is nowhere to be found.
Who says it wouldn't be ok for DRG to make balance suggestions? In fact, I'd love to hear his opinion because he has such understanding of the game. I for my part watch almost every game I can get my hands on and then I play the game a lot. So I guess I do somewhat understand it at least. Why shouldn't it be ok to make balance suggestions? It's obvious that some things are wrong with this game currently and every suggestion could be a solution. Why not hear everything?
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On October 20 2012 01:22 MicroTastiC wrote: Sase just explained all the protoss' problems that every P has been complaining about. pls FIX the game Its more about fixing the whiners than fixing the game, really. To many threads read like this:
Blabla, race x is weak because <insert scenarios in which race x loses>, therefore (and because i am extremly smart) i will once and for all solve all problems: <insert stupid buffs that would make race x overpowered>.
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All I see is a bad protoss writing stupid things. Sase is showing himself a complete joke, with no results in the pro scene and very bad overall gameplay, not only against zergs. Its not much of a surprise that bad protoss like sase, white-ra and many others keep crying about zerg and yet they lose to pretty much everyone in the scene and even good high masters
Its stupid to say that infestors are imba. Nerfing them would be like nerfing marines. It just makes no sense. Its also stupid to say that zergs are imba because of larva or because they have more expansions. Zergs do need more expansions because protoss have a much stronger army (supply vs supply) till zerg gets to BLs. So, please, stop saying stupid things like this.
And above everything, ZvP is 50%, actually even favouring protoss in high end koreans leagues.
The problem with ZvP is not the balance. Its just how stupid it is, protoss timings against zerg require almost no thinking or decision making. You just decide to do and you do it, even "in battle" decisions in zvp/pvz are stupid. Zerg macro is the same till 10mins in the game, every game/map no matter what. I'm also not even talking about how low APM toss requires. On top of that, after 20mins of stupid play, even if you consider that player A (toss or zerg) is much better than the player B (zerg or toss) and played a perfect game, he still can lose to vortex/neural because vortex is just completely stupid and requires close to no skill to use.
The problem with ZvP is design, not balance
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My main reactions was with the pool suggestion. I really like the ability to 6pool or more the fact that it's there. I rarely use it but I like it's existance, especially since the zerg in sc2 is soo lategame oriented compared to bw. 6pool is the really cheesy cheese that zerg have with possibly 12drone rush at that level.
The other thing I react to is the Mothership removal. I have seen it as a kinda interesting unit but I have to agree with your description of it. Just replace it with the arbiter since it should work in all matchups after a patch or two.
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Troll or seious? I cant tell. If not troll im surprised you're pro thinking the way you do. Oh wait, you're toss .... heeeeeeeeey
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Mhmm seems like he was on a losing streak for 10-12 hours an then wrote this. Im self toss and there are really dumb things about the race aswell, like the AOE units are way to powerful in comparrisson to every other races ones. Aswell as TvP is somehow balanced but 1000x times harder for terran to play. I can agree with him on some points vs. Z but the Spawning Pool stuff is more than complete bullshit (heya i can set my nexus first on daybreak and he cant do anything). Aswell as the whole warpin technology was weird from the beginning to the game until now. It´s just that the Protoss race needs a fully redesign, because as it is now, it´s frustrating to play the race and its frustrating to play against the race.
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Lol. The grass really is much greener on the other side eh?
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I love your play SaSe and your builds, but this seems more like a rant and kinda suprised it's not in Blogs.
Also you kinda forgot about how these changes would affect ZvT and ZvZ.
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