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On September 26 2017 17:06 VHbb wrote: I am sorry - I like to discuss and I love TL, but this type of posts
"you could maybe make a case for some female streamers, but its hard to sympathise too much when so many of them blatantly target horny males on stream by modelling themselves after the "gamer girl" image, expose maximum cleavage and wear skimpy clothes for the attention. they know what theyre getting themselves into"
makes me feel very sad, so I will not answer.. this mentality is so sick to my eyes and should have *no place* in a forum like this, that I have no interest in being exposed to it: I'm sure you won't change your opinion, I'm sorry you view the world and act in it like this (mostly for the people who interact with you..)
And yes: if there is a problem, my solution is *not* to become better at suffering it, rather it is to bring attention to it if this improves the chances that something get changes and I *don't* have to suffer the problem anymore (if this means living in a world full of rainbows and unicorns, even better) well i wish you luck on your great quest to rid our world of its many problems. meanwhile i will be doing my best to adapt to circumstances and live my life
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On September 26 2017 19:11 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2017 17:06 VHbb wrote: I am sorry - I like to discuss and I love TL, but this type of posts
"you could maybe make a case for some female streamers, but its hard to sympathise too much when so many of them blatantly target horny males on stream by modelling themselves after the "gamer girl" image, expose maximum cleavage and wear skimpy clothes for the attention. they know what theyre getting themselves into"
makes me feel very sad, so I will not answer.. this mentality is so sick to my eyes and should have *no place* in a forum like this, that I have no interest in being exposed to it: I'm sure you won't change your opinion, I'm sorry you view the world and act in it like this (mostly for the people who interact with you..)
And yes: if there is a problem, my solution is *not* to become better at suffering it, rather it is to bring attention to it if this improves the chances that something get changes and I *don't* have to suffer the problem anymore (if this means living in a world full of rainbows and unicorns, even better) well i wish you luck on your great quest to rid our world of its many problems. meanwhile i will be doing my best to adapt to circumstances and live my life
To be fair you are from australia, im from nz (korean ethnicity). The culture is completely different between NZ/aus and korea. Itsa bit narrow minded/culturally insensitive to say "toughen up", especially when the nz/aus culture is to literally "greet your friends with insults".
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TLADT24917 Posts
On September 26 2017 20:24 pinkbowtie1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2017 19:11 evilfatsh1t wrote:On September 26 2017 17:06 VHbb wrote: I am sorry - I like to discuss and I love TL, but this type of posts
"you could maybe make a case for some female streamers, but its hard to sympathise too much when so many of them blatantly target horny males on stream by modelling themselves after the "gamer girl" image, expose maximum cleavage and wear skimpy clothes for the attention. they know what theyre getting themselves into"
makes me feel very sad, so I will not answer.. this mentality is so sick to my eyes and should have *no place* in a forum like this, that I have no interest in being exposed to it: I'm sure you won't change your opinion, I'm sorry you view the world and act in it like this (mostly for the people who interact with you..)
And yes: if there is a problem, my solution is *not* to become better at suffering it, rather it is to bring attention to it if this improves the chances that something get changes and I *don't* have to suffer the problem anymore (if this means living in a world full of rainbows and unicorns, even better) well i wish you luck on your great quest to rid our world of its many problems. meanwhile i will be doing my best to adapt to circumstances and live my life To be fair you are from australia, im from nz (korean ethnicity). The culture is completely different between NZ/aus and korea. Itsa bit narrow minded/culturally insensitive to say "toughen up", especially when the nz/aus culture is to literally "greet your friends with insults". I believe he's Korean ethnicity as well, could be wrong though.
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You can lament thin skin all you want but you'd have to be pretty fucking stupid to think that "I want to take a knife and fucking kill you" is in the same league as "you're ugly" or "you're retarded" or "you're a slut".
ROFL at the FlaSh hater though... if FlaSh plays like fucking garbage, then what does he play like?
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i would actually hate to see real life bullying translated to bullying behind anonymity. people will use any medium in their reach to do it.
when internet wasn't used, school-yard bullying was pretty commonplace. we had PSA's and everything. the one thing that nearly every person of that age has in common despite how different the kids are, is school.
in my experience, i was put through multiple extra-curricular classes each week, with two of them being language classes. they took place at colleges and highschools over the weekend and i was 10 at the time. in these same classes, there could be 18 year olds enrolled. the older kids would band together in my class and take advantage of some of the younger ones like myself. eventually they would make us do things like fight each other during break. we beat each other up, or we get heavily abused on our own, and so we did what we were told. the other language class was not as abusive but still had the age gaps and rancid bullying.
mix in experiences like those with online ones with the same people or similar, and i guarantee you will be scarred in some shape or another. i should not have to mention that it can get very hard to get out of the loop, or get help. personally, i spoke to my parents as hard as it was, and also my best friend at the time who was there to watch all of it. they didn't see it as pressing until it was too late, and my friend was too scared to do anything. i don't blame him. i asked for help every week and looked in my free time for somebody to help me, until i just understood it was best to refuse to go no matter how much i was forced to.the fear of it stayed and it transitioned to actual school. i still think about it today and how much i changed over the years because of it.
so in my opinion, bullying is no joke, and it's not even worth discussing where the blame lays. i can say that education, care, and monitoring on both sides helps as i try and aid and talk other people out of the same situations today. this is a good video and it's not overblown whether by ethnicity, culture, or w/e.
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On September 25 2017 16:17 evilfatsh1t wrote: cyberbullying is definitely an issue not just in korea but all over the world, but as a korean myself i can say with certainty that korean public figures are too easily offended by negative comments. (not just streamers, but mainstream celebrities also) its probably easiest to say its a cultural thing, but theres definitely some naivety amongst korean public figures where they almost expect everyone to be nice to them and any negative message is a personal attack. not that im condoning cyberbullying at all, but the sensible (and necessary) thing to do as a public figure is to develop thicker skin and realise people will talk shit about you and be trolls. i feel western streamers (especially twitch streamers) understand this quite well and treat most of their viewers as trolls or monkeys and take negative comments light heartedly. sure, hardly anyone even on twitch would say theyd want to kill you with a knife but i doubt a western streamer would be as offended as jd was anyway. there are only a few korean streamers who i can name off the top of my head who are practically immune to that shit and understand its part of being a public figure, the biggest name being chulgu (terror). no offense to flash and the other female bj, but "youre shit at the game" and "your tits are too small" are definitely not comments that you should be getting offended by. its almost pathetic how soft theyre being when receiving criticism is honestly part of their job description. Well, they got literally asked to say things like this to get the message across. Whether the comments really affected them this much is another question. Also it's not a KR only problem, a lot of western streamers struggle with this as well. So while I agree with your point that streamers need thicker skin I'm not sure we can say koreans are more sensitive to this.
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On September 26 2017 20:33 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2017 20:24 pinkbowtie1 wrote:On September 26 2017 19:11 evilfatsh1t wrote:On September 26 2017 17:06 VHbb wrote: I am sorry - I like to discuss and I love TL, but this type of posts
"you could maybe make a case for some female streamers, but its hard to sympathise too much when so many of them blatantly target horny males on stream by modelling themselves after the "gamer girl" image, expose maximum cleavage and wear skimpy clothes for the attention. they know what theyre getting themselves into"
makes me feel very sad, so I will not answer.. this mentality is so sick to my eyes and should have *no place* in a forum like this, that I have no interest in being exposed to it: I'm sure you won't change your opinion, I'm sorry you view the world and act in it like this (mostly for the people who interact with you..)
And yes: if there is a problem, my solution is *not* to become better at suffering it, rather it is to bring attention to it if this improves the chances that something get changes and I *don't* have to suffer the problem anymore (if this means living in a world full of rainbows and unicorns, even better) well i wish you luck on your great quest to rid our world of its many problems. meanwhile i will be doing my best to adapt to circumstances and live my life To be fair you are from australia, im from nz (korean ethnicity). The culture is completely different between NZ/aus and korea. Itsa bit narrow minded/culturally insensitive to say "toughen up", especially when the nz/aus culture is to literally "greet your friends with insults". I believe he's Korean ethnicity as well, could be wrong though. correct. i am korean myself so its fair to say i am very familiar with how the "general population" is.
On September 26 2017 20:24 pinkbowtie1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2017 19:11 evilfatsh1t wrote:On September 26 2017 17:06 VHbb wrote: I am sorry - I like to discuss and I love TL, but this type of posts
"you could maybe make a case for some female streamers, but its hard to sympathise too much when so many of them blatantly target horny males on stream by modelling themselves after the "gamer girl" image, expose maximum cleavage and wear skimpy clothes for the attention. they know what theyre getting themselves into"
makes me feel very sad, so I will not answer.. this mentality is so sick to my eyes and should have *no place* in a forum like this, that I have no interest in being exposed to it: I'm sure you won't change your opinion, I'm sorry you view the world and act in it like this (mostly for the people who interact with you..)
And yes: if there is a problem, my solution is *not* to become better at suffering it, rather it is to bring attention to it if this improves the chances that something get changes and I *don't* have to suffer the problem anymore (if this means living in a world full of rainbows and unicorns, even better) well i wish you luck on your great quest to rid our world of its many problems. meanwhile i will be doing my best to adapt to circumstances and live my life To be fair you are from australia, im from nz (korean ethnicity). The culture is completely different between NZ/aus and korea. Itsa bit narrow minded/culturally insensitive to say "toughen up", especially when the nz/aus culture is to literally "greet your friends with insults". i did point out that its likely to be a cultural issue at the start btw.
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Bulgaria750 Posts
I agree cyberbullying is a bad thing and should be discouraged, but let's face reality. These people MAKE A LIVING off displaying content on the same world wide web that's used to bully them. It's literally a part of the game. I have seen videos of celebrities, for example actors and actresses, reading insulting tweets about themselves. I have seen tens of thousands of negative, outright insulting comments about various sports celebrities like Cristiano Ronaldo and Lionel Messi - and these guys don't even do their work on the internet, so they are less exposed to online bullying. It's natural to be worse when your WORK is making online content of any sort - and it implies communication with a mass of viewers, real-time, so they actually PAY you. Some of those will be trolls, 12-year-olds just hitting puberty and having nothing better to do than insult people on the internet, some of those will be genuinely disappointed with the author's content. Some may be drunk or high. It's literally unavoidable and I'm absolutely not willing to give up any personal information other than my age and location in exchange for anti-bullying policies. This is a whole another matter, of course, and a much bigger one, but in this case the ends simply do not justify the means.
That is not to say the community as a whole cannot act on bullies. They can be - and, like here, they are - ostracized. Chat rooms can be censored so certain words and phrases simply do not show up, like insults. Death threats are another matter and, really, a tiny fraction of those are actually real death threats, but they should raise automated flags and ban users outright. Everyone's on a VPN these days anyway, so tracking is difficult. Despite that, the off-chance that someone might actually carry out an assassination of a BJ is in no way justification for expanding online surveillance, we have quite enough of that already. I recall several murders of football players who screwed up in an important game - somewhere in South America. The fans that did it watched the game on the stadium or on TV. The kind of surveillance required to spot these would be something like 1984.
But beyond that, bullying is an issue, but not a grave one and it is OUR responsibility as a community to ostracize bullies and provide support for content creators (if we want to, of course!). Eliminating bullying is, quite literally, impossible. If you are a content creator who cannot sleep over one bully saying you are full of it, well, I wonder if this is really your job, regardless of how creative you are. If you are sick of blood, heck, don't become a surgeon. I do not defend bullies and I'm against bullying, of course, but this is online reality.
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One thing I've learned about cyber bullying is that it's being done by kids, or grown adults who don't have better use of their time. If I recall, a lot of the old SC:BW community were bully's. I got bullied on TL.net quite a few times. I also remember as a kid bullying other players too but I never said harsh things like "I want a knife to your throat" more like "you suck at this game", but in the end, if you let it get to you, then they win. I always just ignored the name calling, or threats. That's really the only way you're able to win online vs a world full of anonymous.
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Making the argument that streamers should toughen up and not be overly sensitive is like asking a rape victim to wear less challenging/sexual/attractive clothes or dont come off as flirty in i.e. a bar. People will still rape, does that mean we should focus our efforts on victim blaming rather than trying to alter stereotypes and what not that can be a contributor to what makes people rape? Hell no. The offender is the one who has to change their behaviour. I think this video is a step in the right direction and it focuses - as it should - on the offender not the victim.
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On September 27 2017 00:46 merz wrote: Making the argument that streamers should toughen up and not be overly sensitive is like asking a rape victim to wear less challenging/sexual/attractive clothes or dont come off as flirty in i.e. a bar. People will still rape, does that mean we should focus our efforts on victim blaming rather than trying to alter stereotypes and what not that can be a contributor to what makes people rape? Hell no. The offender is the one who has to change their behaviour. I think this video is a step in the right direction and it focuses - as it should - on the offender not the victim.
What? A rape is a physical action, these are kids behind screens typing non-sense, how can you compare the two? I understand there is threats, or cancerous things being said, but that's the point of your moderator. You can control what's being typed in said streams. If you don't then that's your problem.
Also I want to state, I'm not against the video, I think it does what it suppose to do - but most of the time, the cyber bully wants to see these people hurt. Is it really helping or is it really letting cyber bullies know they're winning?
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Cyberbullying is a huge problem, it's resulted in many people committing suicide. Just saying "thicken your skin and get over it" is a terrible thing to say. I'm sorry not everybody has the mental resilience you do, but they don't deserve to die because of it.
I think Internet anonymity is important for journalists, abuse victims, civil rights activists, etc. But we should really stop tolerating these trolls in Twitch chats and whatnot.
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On September 27 2017 02:03 LightSpectra wrote: Cyberbullying is a huge problem, it's resulted in many people committing suicide. Just saying "thicken your skin and get over it" is a terrible thing to say. I'm sorry not everybody has the mental resilience you do, but they don't deserve to die because of it.
I think Internet anonymity is important for journalists, abuse victims, civil rights activists, etc. But we should really stop tolerating these trolls in Twitch chats and whatnot.
I don't want to sound negative or bad here, but if you're committing suicide, or contemplating it, then you seriously need help, and I say this from past experience with contemplation of suicide. It's not just about cyber bullying that makes a person commit suicide, there is outside factors that are contributing to the decision of suicide. I highly doubt that a person has killed themselves just because of cyber bullying. Yet I'm sure it has progressed the decision.
The only solution here is remove negative words or phrases from being entered into the chat. I used to have to control my work chat channels with the same function. I don't get why Twitch hasn't done anything about it then if it's such a huge problem?
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On September 26 2017 20:24 pinkbowtie1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2017 19:11 evilfatsh1t wrote:On September 26 2017 17:06 VHbb wrote: I am sorry - I like to discuss and I love TL, but this type of posts
"you could maybe make a case for some female streamers, but its hard to sympathise too much when so many of them blatantly target horny males on stream by modelling themselves after the "gamer girl" image, expose maximum cleavage and wear skimpy clothes for the attention. they know what theyre getting themselves into"
makes me feel very sad, so I will not answer.. this mentality is so sick to my eyes and should have *no place* in a forum like this, that I have no interest in being exposed to it: I'm sure you won't change your opinion, I'm sorry you view the world and act in it like this (mostly for the people who interact with you..)
And yes: if there is a problem, my solution is *not* to become better at suffering it, rather it is to bring attention to it if this improves the chances that something get changes and I *don't* have to suffer the problem anymore (if this means living in a world full of rainbows and unicorns, even better) well i wish you luck on your great quest to rid our world of its many problems. meanwhile i will be doing my best to adapt to circumstances and live my life To be fair you are from australia, im from nz (korean ethnicity). The culture is completely different between NZ/aus and korea. Itsa bit narrow minded/culturally insensitive to say "toughen up", especially when the nz/aus culture is to literally "greet your friends with insults".
I'm Italian, so you could say european culture, but honestly I didn't take that much into account when commenting. I still think that in case of strong cultural differences the "weak" (i.e. most sensitive, most easily affected negatively) should set the pace.
p.s. writing that you don't want your words to be interpreted as sexist is not really an "excuse" to write something extremely sexist (this about evilfatsh1t post, not the one quoted here)
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On September 26 2017 15:36 evilfatsh1t wrote: both of you dont read or something because like i stated in my posts, to me they are completely separate issues. obviously abusive comments is unacceptable and we need to educate people that cyberbullying is an actual problem. however, being overly sensitive to peoples' comments about you is almost completely unrelated and should be dealt with entirely on its own. having thin skin isnt an issue thats exclusive to cyberbullying, and so im saying its something koreans, or any other person who this problem applies to, need to work on even if there is no association to cyberbullying.
its popular nowadays for everyone to be politically (or in this case, morally) correct and just call me out for "victim blaming" or some shit, but tbh the more likely scenario for these streamers is they just havent developed proper social skills and just need to harden up. some of the comments they claim to be offended by are probably lighter than what the average joe listens to when he gets reamed out at work by his own boss.
ill concede the point that if someone says that shit to your face 100 times youll be annoyed either way, but theyre reading this stuff on a chat, and like i already pointed out with terror, its honestly quite easy to ignore. accept that its part of the job to have people talk shit about you and either ignore the trolls, or embrace it and turn it around on them like some western streamers do.
I understand you are trying to make a cultural point, and I will state again that this issue transcends culture. You can find examples of it even in America where young women and men and hung themselves as a result of online abuse/bullying.
In this statement you don't offer any new adjustments to your argument, but only fall back on the same words. Take the "victim/offender" language out of our discussion. What you objectively have is someone saying hurtful things to another person.
Why, what is the point (what does it serve)? Please tell me what is the benefit of saying shitty things to another person? If a free society you have a right (to some degree) to insult another person, but what is the purpose, why defend an extreme excessive act of insults (twitch chat)?
We cannot control how somebody takes or interprets the words we speak (some people get offended no matter what), but we can control what we say or if we say anything at all.
Twitch chat amounts to people acting out their lack of self control. Rather than have on the verbal filter that we all use in society so we don't get thrown in jail or punched, they just let it rip and say any stupid racist or harmful thing that comes as a first impulse. How is this useful ok even ok in society (I might change my mind if you can provide a compelling argument)?
It is not the other person's burden to be verbally dumped on by some jackass, it is the responsibly of the jackass to control himself. This is common to all societies. *Even if you say, the comments aren't bad, that is subjective what is actually hurtful to another person.
I would go as far as to say why be critical of anyone else, you and I, we have enough of our own problems to sort out so there is no reason to every worry about someone else. Worry about yourself.
Suppose you see a man walking down the street wearing a wolf mask with blood on the fangs and he starts to swing his arms around with bottles in them, swinging them dangerously close to your face but not hitting you. Then he starts howling and screaming around children and everyone on main street. He has never hurt anyone and he has been doing this for years.
Society actually says that's not ok, and they've made laws to try and protect that person and the others around them (less than perfect laws might I add). But his actions affect other people. I don't agree that you should say, "Oh that's just the crazy wolf man he has never hit anyone with his bottles, you need to just get used to them swinging by your face if you want to go downtown."
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On September 27 2017 01:01 ShoCkeyy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2017 00:46 merz wrote: Making the argument that streamers should toughen up and not be overly sensitive is like asking a rape victim to wear less challenging/sexual/attractive clothes or dont come off as flirty in i.e. a bar. People will still rape, does that mean we should focus our efforts on victim blaming rather than trying to alter stereotypes and what not that can be a contributor to what makes people rape? Hell no. The offender is the one who has to change their behaviour. I think this video is a step in the right direction and it focuses - as it should - on the offender not the victim. What? A rape is a physical action, these are kids behind screens typing non-sense, how can you compare the two? I understand there is threats, or cancerous things being said, but that's the point of your moderator. You can control what's being typed in said streams. If you don't then that's your problem. Also I want to state, I'm not against the video, I think it does what it suppose to do - but most of the time, the cyber bully wants to see these people hurt. Is it really helping or is it really letting cyber bullies know they're winning?
How does Rape being a physical action bear any relevance? It is a valid comparison, in both cases you are asking the victim of an offense to adjust to the situation rather than telling the offender to stop his/her untolerable behaviour. I used rape as an example because victim blaming is very common when it comes to that type of offense, but we can compare it to assault if you want. If I dont want to get my face caved in the bar , I should just shut my mouth and avoid trouble at all costs right? No. Yet these are arguments people actually make. "You should have just looked down and walked away" "You shouldnt drink so much" "You should just accept that people randomly insults you because otherwise they might punch you in the face" and so forth.
Again, if someone says I`m fucking trash or that they hope that my mother dies a horrible death in cancer, I should be the one to get a thicker skin? What about the person who just said he/she hopes my mother dies in cancer? I fail to see the logic in this.
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On September 26 2017 21:27 nanaoei wrote:
in my experience, i was put through multiple extra-curricular classes each week, with two of them being language classes. they took place at colleges and highschools over the weekend and i was 10 at the time. in these same classes, there could be 18 year olds enrolled in the same classes. the older kids would band together in my class and take advantage of some of the younger ones like myself. eventually they would make us do things like fight each other during break. we beat each other up, or we get heavily abused on our own, and so we did what we were told. the other language class was not as abusive but still had the age gaps and rancid bullying.
LOL thats hilarious, I can just imagine it xD
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I've been cyberbullied for 20 years. How do I cash in on this sweet victim status?!?!?!?!?
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Words of violence are abhorring. That isn't acceptable, and no amount of thick skin makes it so.
At the same time, we as a society should grow a thicker skin.
Sometimes, we give the trolls power over us when we generate a reaction. If we do not have a reaction or provide one that wasn't expected, then we take power away from the trolls. Hence, 'don't feed the trolls' is a plausible response from some people.
But this isn't a black and white issue. For some, certain words, comments, replies, engagements are deemed offensive, but not necessarily by all. Grey areas exist.
Words that trigger racially sensitive labels are not the same as violence emotionally, physically, or any -ally.
To some degree, we have to ignore some of the comments, because that takes away its power. We have to decide our degree, and express them clearly.
I am not victim blaming, I just view things differently.
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On September 27 2017 05:56 SK.Testie wrote: I've been cyberbullied for 20 years. How do I cash in on this sweet victim status?!?!?!?!? ya a 5min search would probably show that you've been an ass from time to time bruh guess it goes both way
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