Which team league format do you prefer? - Page 8
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Tristanity
Malaysia45 Posts
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On February 18 2012 23:14 dabom88 wrote: How exactly do you use Snipers in the PL format? In general, in what order are the players picked? You have to predict the map a player you want to snipe is going to play on, and have your sniper play on that map. Sniping is a lot more fun in PL format because it involves a lot of mind games when it comes to preparing the lineup. In general, players are picked depending on the map and the predicted opponent. There are some other considerations, as in do you want your top players to play the first few maps, getting the psychological advantage of being in a 1-0 or 2-0 lead and putting pressure on the players opponent puts up next, or do you want to save them for the last game and the ace match, risking a 3-0 defeat if your first picks fall. You can choose to snipe their best players or dodge them (sacrifice a lesser player), etc. There's a lot of fun just seeing how the lineups turn up, and it emphasizes the team aspect of the competition quite a bit more. | ||
Meteora.GB
Canada2479 Posts
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On February 18 2012 23:36 Meteora.GB wrote: Proleague format is exciting, though it creates situations where a team with a star player like DRG can basically keep their team afloat by their own efforts. So less overall well rounded teams can get get by, much like KT in Brood War (though they're still performing exceptionally well the new format Proleague is using, the one NASTL and EGMCSL). AK format is way worse in that regard, just consider the number of double/triple/all-kills DRG got over the last few seasons, or what MMA used to get earlier on for Slayers. Top player playing only one or maybe two (with ace match) games in a BO7 is a lot worse for ace player teams than top player potentially playing up to 3 or 4 games. I mean you can say that he's snipable if he comes out early, but realistically you can't snipe someone like Flash, and in SC2 I think sniping someone like DRG will be very difficult. No matter how many good vZers you send out against him, he's basically guaranteed to get a few kills before (if at all) he falls. Although on a semi-related note, Proleague itself is exciting because teams are actually very well balanced and any team has a realistic chance of losing to any other team if the best players slip up. I'm not sure this would translate well to SC2 where there are massive gaps in roster quality that are difficult to overcome regardless of format. | ||
Dromar
United States2145 Posts
On February 18 2012 06:00 Ballack wrote: Edit: I quickly went over the first 6 pages of comments and I counted 42 comments in favor of winners league format and 32 in favor of Proleague format or NASTL. So while only 20% in the poll votes for the NASTL format, 44% of the commenters find this to be the best. Oh and I know the Proleague system isn't exactly the same as the NASTL or EGMCSL one, but I think the people who says Proleague has voted for the 2nd option anyway, as there are not that many votes in the "other" option. Why this is one can only speculate. Perhaps the supporters of the Proleague format have been around for longer, so they are more inclined to put their individual opinions in the comment section and not just vote in the poll. Or it could be that supporters of the losing format (in terms of the poll) feel like they need to voice their opinion in the comment section to make it clear that the poll is not correct in their opinion. Well, I voted the set match option, and I'm voicing my opinion because I have a couple (IMO) strong reasons why I think this is right. My guess as to why the other option is winning is because it's the GSTL format and that's the most prestigious tourney. Anyway, I don't like the "losing team chooses map and player" format for a couple reasons: 1. This makes sniping too much of an option IMO. Sending out a specific player with a specific build for a specific matchup can create some very one-sided and uninteresting games. Basically, after a player wins a game, their next game is going to be their worst matchup on the worst possible map for them, against someone who likely has a special strategy prepared against them. What's the likelihood that that is going to be a good game? 2. For the teams that have players that are good enough to weather reason #1, it emphasizes the power of one player too much (again, IMO). I'd prefer if team leagues emphasized a strong team. The GSTL format emphasizes a Flash or a Jaedong over a Bisu/Fantasy/Best, or a Kal/Hwasin/Calm, along with a few up-and-coming rookies to make a deep lineup. That said, I'd be fine with a compromise too. A kill format, where the winning player stays but the maps are preset (i.e. Winner's League) would be fine by me too. I just think choosing the matchup and the map might be a bit too much. | ||
mango_destroyer
Canada3914 Posts
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Brootalbro
Korea (South)105 Posts
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Shellshock
United States97248 Posts
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Erik.TheRed
United States1655 Posts
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OSM.OneManArmy
United States509 Posts
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Phelix
1931 Posts
On February 20 2012 05:07 Dromar wrote: Well, I voted the set match option, and I'm voicing my opinion because I have a couple (IMO) strong reasons why I think this is right. My guess as to why the other option is winning is because it's the GSTL format and that's the most prestigious tourney. Anyway, I don't like the "losing team chooses map and player" format for a couple reasons: 1. This makes sniping too much of an option IMO. Sending out a specific player with a specific build for a specific matchup can create some very one-sided and uninteresting games. Basically, after a player wins a game, their next game is going to be their worst matchup on the worst possible map for them, against someone who likely has a special strategy prepared against them. What's the likelihood that that is going to be a good game? 2. For the teams that have players that are good enough to weather reason #1, it emphasizes the power of one player too much (again, IMO). I'd prefer if team leagues emphasized a strong team. The GSTL format emphasizes a Flash or a Jaedong over a Bisu/Fantasy/Best, or a Kal/Hwasin/Calm, along with a few up-and-coming rookies to make a deep lineup. That said, I'd be fine with a compromise too. A kill format, where the winning player stays but the maps are preset (i.e. Winner's League) would be fine by me too. I just think choosing the matchup and the map might be a bit too much. I agree to this opinion about the criticisms of the GSTL format, along with the fact that it's a Best of 9. I believe that there's just too many games in order to show who is the best team, and dilutes the quality of the matches. Few teams would have 5 quality players that can consistently win, and the fans would have to endure more boring matches. This is why the new BW format cut down the games from Bo7 to Bo5, as fans would see more regular faces in the lineup. | ||
babysimba
10466 Posts
On February 19 2012 07:26 MooMooMugi wrote: Why? Its so fun to see a player beat player after player even though the opposing team has the advantage of choosing the matchup+ map On February 19 2012 11:20 babysimba wrote: They allow weaker teams to grow. Inexperienced players can be sent out with less pressure on them, knowing they have a reliable closers. Team DRG has now grown into what you see now. Team Prime is next (check out yesterday's ksl team league). They still have creator and byun (i assume he's good enough, 2-3 gm accounts of 80% win rates with macro-oriented play is no joke) after mkp. And the post above of course. I can enjoy team leagues without caring much about cheeses or map/racial imbalance. The team with the more versatile lineup (to take advantages of maps) and come with more prepared strategies can win even without having the raw firepower of the opponent team. Finally, until the maps get sorted out we shouldn't use the proleague format. Chances are that we will see tons of mirror matches (e.g zvz on dualsight and belshir, pvp on calm before the storm, tvt on antiga, etc) | ||
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22271 Posts
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Brotatolol
United States1742 Posts
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coolcor
520 Posts
Then you have a long epic league where every team plays eachother once in each format instead of this lame elimination stuff where we only get 2 or 3 games from most teams. Other then that the real best format is this one. game 1: sc2 game 2: sc2:bw game 3: hots custom game 4: 2v2 ace match: 4v4 Once totalbiscut finishes his trollobattles mod we can extend this to a bo7 by adding that and 3v3! | ||
Onox
United States1072 Posts
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rewired
Canada630 Posts
Especially after last years KT vs. SKT finals you see way more depth in a team as well who is really a clutch player and who isn't. Winners League format does have its place though, just not as enjoyable for me. | ||
Authweight
United States304 Posts
This makes the decision of who to send out a very interesting one. Suppose your opponent wins the first game by sending out a terran to defeat your zerg. Furthermore, this terran has a known weakness in tvp. You have a player who has been training as a pvt sniper, so you want to send him out. However, your pvt sniper is poor against zerg, and the enemy team has an excellent zerg who has yet to play. Do you send out your sniper, or do you send out a strong all-around player? It depends on how dangerous your initial terran opponent is, how good your sniper is, and how you feel about the rest of your lineup. There is a lot of decision making and drama involved with this system. | ||
red4ce
United States7313 Posts
1) SC2 is about the superstars. People don't show up to the GOM studio to watch IM or Prime. They show up to watch Nestea, MVP and Marineking. Assuming the teams are taking the tournament seriously (admittedly not a safe assumption given past GSTL's) the all-kill format ensures the best players play at least once and probably more. 2) It's better for hype. Think of all the players who became famous from teamleagues. DRG, MMA, Losira, Sage, Tails, etc. None of this would have been possible without the chance to get multiple kills. 3) Fewer mirrors. In an ideal world all maps would be balanced and this wouldn't be an issue. Too bad it doesn't work like that in reality. The current BW proleague is filled with way too many mirrors because this season's map pool isn't as balanced as it could be. If lineups are preset, teams will send out a player of whichever race is OP on that particular map, creating lots of mirror matchups, and as we all know ZvZ and PvP suck. 4. More strategic. Proleague format is just a matter of picking a player on your team and having him prepare as much as he can for that specific map. All the strategy making happens before the game and behind the scenes. With all-kill format we get to dissect the minds of the coaches as the series unfolds and see just how well they adapt to unpredictable circumstances. The main argument against all-kill format is that it allows a player to single handedly win everything for their team, thus taking the "team" out of teamleague. I do not feel this is a problem in SC2. Winner's league was disliked in BW because Flash, Bisu and Jaedong were so good there wasn't any point for non-fans of KT, Oz or SKT to watch. Nobody has reached that sort of unstoppable level in SC2, not yet anyways. Sure we still have 5-0 or 5-1 stompings, but I think that's mostly due to the fact that there are teams that just aren't very good like Zenex, TSL and Hoseo. Even with a proleague format they'd still get blown out of the water. | ||
canikizu
4860 Posts
On February 18 2012 23:29 Talin wrote: You have to predict the map a player you want to snipe is going to play on, and have your sniper play on that map. Sniping is a lot more fun in PL format because it involves a lot of mind games when it comes to preparing the lineup. In general, players are picked depending on the map and the predicted opponent. There are some other considerations, as in do you want your top players to play the first few maps, getting the psychological advantage of being in a 1-0 or 2-0 lead and putting pressure on the players opponent puts up next, or do you want to save them for the last game and the ace match, risking a 3-0 defeat if your first picks fall. You can choose to snipe their best players or dodge them (sacrifice a lesser player), etc. There's a lot of fun just seeing how the lineups turn up, and it emphasizes the team aspect of the competition quite a bit more. Every format has its own niche way to create excitement though. In WL format, you have to think about other balance too. Should we send our best player first to exhaust the other team rooster? Should we send 1 sniper, should we double snipers to get their best player because one is not sure enough? Should we send a player who can prolong the game as much as possible to stress out that particular player, so that the next one can snipe him? Should we try to bait that particular player out so that we can snipe?.v.v.v..v Hell, you can even do bm ceremony to bait a player out. But WL is really shine in LAN events though. For online tournaments, it's a nightmare. With PL format, you can arrange players to play their games at different time, but with WL format, one game can't start if the other game doesn't finish yet, since you don't know the winner yet. It's a nightmare and may take the whole 1,2 months to just finish just 1 set. | ||
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