One could easily argue (as I am) that both smoking & obesity comes from societal manipulation and pressure, thus is the power of marketing from financial-gain driven society. Obesity and smoking (perhaps less with smoking nowadays) still exist in much due to economic market, as much of our market comes from taking advantage of such potential 'addictions'.
Take high fructose corn syrup, or genetically bioengineered wheat (might be getting too deep into). They may be necessary evils (esp. in third-world countries and to those in real poverty who can't afford staple food) but that's just examples of how under-educated & mislead the public is when it comes to nutrition & health.
On March 06 2012 22:51 naggerNZ wrote: I think most anti-smoking advocates and campaigns are overzealous and misinformed. I smoke, and it's a personal choice I make. I know the health risks, I know the downsides. But I enjoy it, and I find many benefits it creates that non-smokers really don't seem to understand or account for. I am very infuriated when people imply that I don't make an active and informed decision to smoke tobacco, either due to underhanded advertising from tobacco companies, or that I'm a slave to addiction. It's incredibly condescending and hypocritical as I often find I am much more informed on the facts regarding smoking than those who will tell me I should quit.
Equating either smoking or obesity to each other is to completely miss the complexity of both issues. To try and force people to change against their will on either issue is wrong and immoral.
As an ex smoker (10 years), I firmly believe all your points are just nicotine talking out of your brain. Smoking is the most vile, harmful, unnecessary and disgusting habit ever, and the chemicals brand makers put in there to keep you addicted are enough to murder a cow and mess with your "rationality".
There are no positives to smoking cigarettes whatsoever. I used to believe how pleasant and handy it was when I was chain smoking, too. Now that I've quit, everything is exactly the same except I don't smell, turn people off, waste money and poison myself and there is nothing missing because cigarettes do nothing for you except make you addicted and socially awkward.
You want to be informed? Get up right now, go outside and do a hard, explosive sprint for 500 meters. If you're in your 20s or older your lungs and throat will instantly provide you with all the unbiased info you'll ever need.
Educational campaigns are the best way to go in my opinion. It's also the only real way to change a culture. I loathe the people who would raise taxes to make a point.
On March 06 2012 23:09 LuciferSC wrote: I would be careful with the words 'self-choice'.
One could easily argue (as I am) that both smoking & obesity comes from societal manipulation and pressure, thus is the power of marketing from financial-gain driven society. Obesity and smoking (perhaps less with smoking nowadays) still exist in much due to economic market, as much of our market comes from taking advantage of such potential 'addictions'.
Take high fructose corn syrup, or genetically bioengineered wheat (might be getting too deep into). They may be necessary evils (esp. in third-world countries and to those in real poverty who can't afford staple food) but that's just examples of how under-educated & mislead the public is when it comes to nutrition & health.
Thanks for your assertions. Care to provide any evidence to back them up? I wouldn't normally ask but society has manipulated me into thinking people should provide a factual basis for their conclusions.
On March 06 2012 22:51 naggerNZ wrote: I think most anti-smoking advocates and campaigns are overzealous and misinformed. I smoke, and it's a personal choice I make. I know the health risks, I know the downsides. But I enjoy it, and I find many benefits it creates that non-smokers really don't seem to understand or account for. I am very infuriated when people imply that I don't make an active and informed decision to smoke tobacco, either due to underhanded advertising from tobacco companies, or that I'm a slave to addiction. It's incredibly condescending and hypocritical as I often find I am much more informed on the facts regarding smoking than those who will tell me I should quit.
Equating either smoking or obesity to each other is to completely miss the complexity of both issues. To try and force people to change against their will on either issue is wrong and immoral.
As an ex smoker (10 years), I firmly believe all your points are just nicotine talking out of your brain. Smoking is the most vile, harmful, unnecessary and disgusting habit ever, and the chemicals brand makers put in there to keep you addicted are enough to murder a cow and mess with your "rationality".
There are no positives to smoking cigarettes whatsoever. I used to believe how pleasant and handy it was when I was chain smoking, too. Now that I've quit, everything is exactly the same except I don't smell, turn people off, waste money and poison myself and there is nothing missing because cigarettes do nothing for you except make you addicted and socially awkward.
You want to be informed? Get up right now, go outside and do a hard, explosive sprint for 500 meters. If you're in your 20s or older your lungs and throat will instantly provide you with all the unbiased info you'll ever need.
OH I'M SO SORRY! I keep forgetting that everything I say is invalid because nicotine has turned me into a mindless zombie! Don't pretend to know me. I am far from a chain smoker, and when I'm not working, or don't have the money I often go a week or so without having a single cigarette and it doesn't really bother me. I don't smoke because of addiction and I never have.
Education and private programs are the only appropriate ways to deal with smoking and obesity problems. There should be no extra-tax on self-destructive products like cigarettes and especially not on things like fast food which can be consumed 100% safely and responsibly. Banning tobacco would be a terrible violation of individual rights.
EDIT: and it is quite apparent that people are getting more obese as time goes on, and it is becoming more and more "acceptable" to be grossly overweight. Last time I went on a flight I was looking at the size of a woman nearby. Then looking at the size of the emergency exit. Then looking back at the tremendous, flabby bulk of the woman. Then back at the size of the emergency exit.
I concluded that there was absolutely no way she would be able to physically fit through any of the plane's emergency exits - yet she was allowed on the plane! If she were to 'cork' an exit it would be entirely possible her fatness would be the death of many.
On March 06 2012 22:51 naggerNZ wrote: I think most anti-smoking advocates and campaigns are overzealous and misinformed. I smoke, and it's a personal choice I make. I know the health risks, I know the downsides. But I enjoy it, and I find many benefits it creates that non-smokers really don't seem to understand or account for. I am very infuriated when people imply that I don't make an active and informed decision to smoke tobacco, either due to underhanded advertising from tobacco companies, or that I'm a slave to addiction. It's incredibly condescending and hypocritical as I often find I am much more informed on the facts regarding smoking than those who will tell me I should quit.
Equating either smoking or obesity to each other is to completely miss the complexity of both issues. To try and force people to change against their will on either issue is wrong and immoral.
As an ex smoker (10 years), I firmly believe all your points are just nicotine talking out of your brain. Smoking is the most vile, harmful, unnecessary and disgusting habit ever, and the chemicals brand makers put in there to keep you addicted are enough to murder a cow and mess with your "rationality".
There are no positives to smoking cigarettes whatsoever. I used to believe how pleasant and handy it was when I was chain smoking, too. Now that I've quit, everything is exactly the same except I don't smell, turn people off, waste money and poison myself and there is nothing missing because cigarettes do nothing for you except make you addicted and socially awkward.
You want to be informed? Get up right now, go outside and do a hard, explosive sprint for 500 meters. If you're in your 20s or older your lungs and throat will instantly provide you with all the unbiased info you'll ever need.
Smoking is generally demonized, but it's still socially accepted. Except around yuppie moms that are pregnant or have a newborn with them. Smoking is addictive though. Nobody is addicted to having a crap diet and being too lazy to work out. Most people don't even know what a good diet is because here we are surrounded by such terrible food.
Obesity bothers me more. It is disgusting how fat women have this attitude about being fat and proud. Dumb bitch, live in the body of a normal, non skinny woman like Christina Hendricks and tell me you'll go back to being a land-lubbering walrus. No, you wouldn't. Stop making men feel guilty for not liking your morbid obesity.
On March 06 2012 22:51 naggerNZ wrote: I think most anti-smoking advocates and campaigns are overzealous and misinformed. I smoke, and it's a personal choice I make. I know the health risks, I know the downsides. But I enjoy it, and I find many benefits it creates that non-smokers really don't seem to understand or account for. I am very infuriated when people imply that I don't make an active and informed decision to smoke tobacco, either due to underhanded advertising from tobacco companies, or that I'm a slave to addiction. It's incredibly condescending and hypocritical as I often find I am much more informed on the facts regarding smoking than those who will tell me I should quit.
Equating either smoking or obesity to each other is to completely miss the complexity of both issues. To try and force people to change against their will on either issue is wrong and immoral.
Out of curiosity, what benefits does your smoking create that non-smokers don't understand or account for?
It tastes good. It feels good. It's can be a social thing, if you have friends who smoke.
Another thing, which makes me enjoy my smoking in parties, is that it's a good thing to break things up. Instead of constantly drinking, sweating like an ass in a room with too many people, having a prolonged conversation with someone uninteresting, you can always take a break and go out for a smoke. It's definitely nothing you must smoke to do, but it's one of the things smoking give me.
On March 06 2012 22:51 naggerNZ wrote: I think most anti-smoking advocates and campaigns are overzealous and misinformed. I smoke, and it's a personal choice I make. I know the health risks, I know the downsides. But I enjoy it, and I find many benefits it creates that non-smokers really don't seem to understand or account for. I am very infuriated when people imply that I don't make an active and informed decision to smoke tobacco, either due to underhanded advertising from tobacco companies, or that I'm a slave to addiction. It's incredibly condescending and hypocritical as I often find I am much more informed on the facts regarding smoking than those who will tell me I should quit.
Equating either smoking or obesity to each other is to completely miss the complexity of both issues. To try and force people to change against their will on either issue is wrong and immoral.
Out of curiosity, what benefits does your smoking create that non-smokers don't understand or account for?
Well, for me personally, I find it helps overcome a lot of social anxiety problems. I have difficulty interacting with people I don't know, and it can create problems in a working environment. However, I find that having a smoke with someone immediately overcomes this barrier. It acts as both an icebreaker and common ground. And given my line of work, I work with new people in stressful situations all the time (I'm a bouncer). Also, I find that it's a good excuse to take breaks. If I don't take regular smoke breaks sometimes I can work 8 hours non stop without a break in a hot, noisy bar/club. Not very good for your sanity.
Also, it's worth noting the biological effects of smoking. It's well understood that smoking releases beta-endorphins, which simulate feelings of satisfaction and accomplishment, something not everyone is lucky enough to get elsewhere.
Also, I like the taste and the buzz and it helps me get through the week.
Thank you guys for answering And as long as you've made an informed decision and balanced the pros and cons (social, medical, etc.), I'm certainly not going to stand on a pedestal and shout at you at how you guys are terrible people. I'm no one to judge.
As an athlete (tennis), smoking would destroy me. My aunt eventually killed her husband with the years and years and years of secondhand smoke (gave him cancer). And I have my other preferences for social releases and spending money. So I have my reasons, and you have yours. Plus, cigarette smoke just makes me cough up a lung in general, so that's my only problem with being around smokers (as opposed to the idea of people making informed decisions). ::shrugs::
smoking by advertisement bans, warnings on the packs, banned in most public areas and tax increases. obesity battling wise a test was just finished in Amsterdam with government funded exercise and education, It worked. Hope to see more of those. I really don't feel like that they both originate from social pressure. Smoking used to be cool. Being obese has never been cool(besides sumo wrestlers maybe).
EDIT: A law proposal has just been filled to regulate salt concentrations in food, so guess thats what they are focusing on now instead of fat and sugar
On March 06 2012 23:12 Thenerf wrote: Educational campaigns are the best way to go in my opinion. It's also the only real way to change a culture. I loathe the people who would raise taxes to make a point.
You don't raise taxes to make a point, you raise taxes to battle the cost society has to make for your lifestyle choice. Smokers get sick more and die younger same goes for the obese.
Smoking is bad, but I can out sprint and/or lift pretty much every non smoker I know. When I was in the military I was the best runner and smoked whenever I got a chance. I find non smokers tend to get light headed when they really push themselves because their brains just can't deal with the lack of oxygen. Anecdotal, but most of the old guys agreed that smoking gives you an edge when at altitude for the same reason.
That said, I have tried to give up numerous times in the past, for long enough to know I don't miss it after a couple weeks. Always the heavy booze nights catch me out. Slip up and you are smoking like a train the next day, and then feel like a complete cunt for all the wasted willpower it took to quit.
On March 06 2012 22:35 nam nam wrote: How is smoking self-choice? Yes it's not hardcore narcotics but please. Also smoking effect others to a much higher degree than someone else being obese. Also obesity is much less "self-choice" than some people like to believe.
correct me if i'm wrong (i don't smoke cigs) but can't people start using nicotene patches instead of smoking? are they a lot more expensive or something?
On March 06 2012 23:26 couches wrote: In the States.
Smoking is generally demonized, but it's still socially accepted. Except around yuppie moms that are pregnant or have a newborn with them. Smoking is addictive though. Nobody is addicted to having a crap diet and being too lazy to work out. Most people don't even know what a good diet is because here we are surrounded by such terrible food.
Are you serious?
I'd be willing to bet that it's just as difficult, if not more-so, to stop being obese as it is to stop smoking. Smokers get withdrawal while the obese are starving.
On March 06 2012 22:23 Marou wrote: That's an interesting parralel, France dealt and still is dealing with smoking agressively. I think the anti-smoking law are going to far (especially not being able to smoke in clubs and bars. This should be up to the owner of the place imho).
We have that in Sweden, for anyone that is a non-smoker that was a law gifted to us from god. Without it you are basically smoking yourself whenever you wanna go out cause every single place you go has the smoke hanging in clouds. Now that people go out to smoke, i can choose i wanna submit myself to passive smoking or not.
On March 06 2012 22:35 nam nam wrote: How is smoking self-choice? Yes it's not hardcore narcotics but please. Also smoking effect others to a much higher degree than someone else being obese. Also obesity is much less "self-choice" than some people like to believe.
Self choice to start, more often than not. I will amend the OP to reflect that. If anything, smoking is mor eself choice than obesity, for instance if you are an obese child because of your parents. You don't have much choice as a kid to determine your own diet.
You could argue that if parents smoke near their child he can become addicted to the nicotine.
On March 06 2012 22:35 nam nam wrote: How is smoking self-choice? Yes it's not hardcore narcotics but please. Also smoking effect others to a much higher degree than someone else being obese. Also obesity is much less "self-choice" than some people like to believe.
correct me if i'm wrong (i don't smoke cigs) but can't people start using nicotene patches instead of smoking? are they a lot more expensive or something?
It's also a lot about the habit of pulling out the cig, lighting it and doing the gesture with your hands and mouth. Which is why a lot of people trying to stop chew gum.
On March 06 2012 22:51 naggerNZ wrote: I think most anti-smoking advocates and campaigns are overzealous and misinformed. I smoke, and it's a personal choice I make. I know the health risks, I know the downsides. But I enjoy it, and I find many benefits it creates that non-smokers really don't seem to understand or account for. I am very infuriated when people imply that I don't make an active and informed decision to smoke tobacco, either due to underhanded advertising from tobacco companies, or that I'm a slave to addiction. It's incredibly condescending and hypocritical as I often find I am much more informed on the facts regarding smoking than those who will tell me I should quit.
Equating either smoking or obesity to each other is to completely miss the complexity of both issues. To try and force people to change against their will on either issue is wrong and immoral.
As an ex smoker (10 years), I firmly believe all your points are just nicotine talking out of your brain. Smoking is the most vile, harmful, unnecessary and disgusting habit ever, and the chemicals brand makers put in there to keep you addicted are enough to murder a cow and mess with your "rationality".
There are no positives to smoking cigarettes whatsoever. I used to believe how pleasant and handy it was when I was chain smoking, too. Now that I've quit, everything is exactly the same except I don't smell, turn people off, waste money and poison myself and there is nothing missing because cigarettes do nothing for you except make you addicted and socially awkward.
You want to be informed? Get up right now, go outside and do a hard, explosive sprint for 500 meters. If you're in your 20s or older your lungs and throat will instantly provide you with all the unbiased info you'll ever need.
500 meter sprint? So you want someone to sprint the length of 5 football fields? I'm pretty sure anybody not in good shape is going to have breathing problems after that.
I'd like to state that to me, you sir are the worst of all. Worse than those who foist their misinformed generalizations about smokers on others, to me, is the reformed former-smokers. Once you (the reformed smoker) have beaten your addiction, there's this compulsion that follows to talk down to other smokers like you know better. Since you have stopped smoking, you view smokers as people with a pitiful life, slaving as peons to 'big tobacco.' This is unless you can show up on your white steed to bring light and prosperity to us uninformed saps. There was a time when smoking filled a niche in your life, and was able to fulfill requirements you needed. It doesn't for you now, and you personally managed to outweigh what it did offer you by what it does to your health. To some, nay many, that is not the case. I'm quite aware that it is poor for my health. But you know what, there's a lot to be said for a cigarette after a 12 hour work shift. Or after a long hard fought sporting game. Or after some great sex. You may not agree, and I'm not proposing others take up smoking for its effects- but to each their own. If you disagree with the merits of smoking, be it personal, social or medical (lol, there are no medical ones) make claims based on something other than a reading of your own moral compass.
I'm also vehemently against the assumption that smoking makes you socially awkward. The habit of smoking will, almost invariably, lead to a person interacting with other smokers- whether it be to bum cigarettes, or join in with them. I would argue this is beneficial to your social growth, as you gain the ability and confidence to approach strangers (will help in the bar scene later on- though granted, the smelling like smoke may prove to be counter productive)
Too often smokers and pro-smokers hide behind the argument that it's their personal choice. That they should be free to do whatever they want with themselves. Well guess what, the smoke isn't going to just effect you. Whenever you light up you increase the chances everyone around you gets cancer among other diseases. In this way smoking and obesity are different. I'm not going to be harmed by some fat guy walking next to me. And yes, I can judge as a bad person for smoking. You're causing unnecessary and voluntary physical harm to everyone around you.