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On March 16 2012 02:41 ZjiublingZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 02:31 DoctorFunk wrote:On March 15 2012 12:08 ZjiublingZ wrote:On March 15 2012 12:00 DaeWang790 wrote:On March 15 2012 11:55 ZjiublingZ wrote:On March 15 2012 11:49 rauk wrote:On March 15 2012 11:33 ZjiublingZ wrote:On March 15 2012 11:16 rauk wrote:On March 15 2012 10:52 ZjiublingZ wrote:On March 15 2012 10:26 rauk wrote: [quote]
how do you discuss a strategy that doesn't work? viability is pretty important. It's very easy to discuss a Strategy that "doesn't work". If by "doesn't work" you mean it isn't solid enough to become standard play. Clearly it can work against extremely skilled players. We saw MKP pull if off against Genius. Regardless of how Genius fucked up, MKP's build was still optimized, and had many elements worthy of discussion, and most importantly, isn't perfect. It can be improved. The same is true for all Mech. Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly, but there are plenty of guides about specific builds here on TL that don't work when your opponent responds correctly. It isn't helpful to debate or discuss that. It is helpful to discuss ways to improve those builds. /b] you saw MKP almost fuck up a completely won game where he's 100 supply ahead against genius BECAUSE he's mech. that should tell you more than anything how bad mech is. if you want to go with "it works against someone who doesn't know what they're doing" then there's not much more i can say lol. 1) It's hilarious that you think that Genius is someone who doesn't know what he is doing. As if you could have responded better. Hindsight is 20/20 isn't it? 2) You are missing the point. The point is, MKP didn't play perfectly. The point is that we can, through discussion in this thread aptly named "How to Mech TvP", improve Mech builds, openings, analyze Mech PvT replays and discuss how to improve the players play. Even if Mech ultimately is an inferior style vs Protoss, there are still ways to play it that are better than others. That's what we can discuss. So please, do show yourself out since you clearly have nothing to contribute in a thread named "How to Mech TvP". If you still want to have your debate where neither side can prove they are 100% right, make a thread called "Is Mech viable in TvP" and continue your discussion there. genius is behind 30 workers and 50 army supply but crushes mkp's army anyways. it's pretty hard to lose no matter what you're doing if your opponent is that far behind, but mkp still almost manages to do so. i am referring to your "Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly" that if you want to do that, it's pointless. Okay, thank you for sharing your opinion. I think that about wraps it up. Now this thread can move forward to discuss How to Mech TvP without you. Ill start. I've found that their is a timing I can hit Protoss with about 4-5 ghosts and 2 1/1 Battlecruisers, Siege Tanks, 2-3 Thors, BFH's, 4 Banshees and a Raven and it's really strong at cutting the Protoss off from expanding while you continue to rally in Battlecruisers. At that point, they have nothing to deal with Battlecruisers except Stalkers which are a joke (especially with Raven and Tank support). It hits right around 170 supply usually. It works really well on maps where you can take a fairly fast third as PF (11-12 minutes), and maps where you can abuse cliffs with Siege Tanks and Battlecruisers for vision. Cloud Kingdom is a great expample. It isn't effective if they started producing Void Rays early enough after scouting the Fusion Core (although the scouting is really easy to deny), but even 4 Void Rays against 1/1 Battlecruisers + Thor's and EMP for additional support aren't enough. Also, it's really important to EMP your Battlecruisers and Thors before you push, unless you have a ton of confidence in your Ghost micro. So I'd like to state that I don't think mech is viable in TvP. Your composition seems like it takes too long and is not even at max supply. That doesn't even make sense. It's a timing. It is supposed to hit at that time. It isn't a composition that's necessary to have earlier, or later. I am saying I have found it works at that timing. Later and they can build up defenses for Battlecruisers, earlier and you have to sacrifice too much of your core army to get the Battlecruisers. But since you are commenting on the timing, what is your experience with it? How do you think it can be improved? you can't have a battle cruiser ghost Thor timing. A lot of shit happens before then. Have you been practicing against bronze Ai that just lets you sit there and build whatever you want? Are you asking me how I get to 3 bases and how I get that army up?
So you have a build order that has a specific timing after securing three bases against protoss? Another problem is that you only have 170 supply, so that's roughly about 100 supply in army if you're on three bases. Then 2 battlecruisers, 3 thors, 3 tanks, 4 banshees, one raven and 5 ghosts comes out to about 60 supply. Then there is about 40 supply in additional tanks and hellions. Even still, it doesn't seem like it's a composition that wins because it's powerful, but because your opponent doesn't play well against it.
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I feel these 2 good timing push with MECH
IF someone can find how to answer these questions mech will become viable.
1- 13-15 min 2base The problem: If this push dont kill him, I dont really see how to make pressure on him(denied his expo, and kill his buildings) and expand safely.Helion, banshee, thors drop ??? And if he got canons in every bases?
2- lategame mass thors+ghost or Battlecruiser+ghost is almost unstoppable for a 200food toss army. The problem: if the protoss have a lot of warpgate, they have a 300food army. I hate zealot+archon. Maybe if I never attack and cut the map in half, I'll never have to fight this 300food army???(Im not very sure about this statement) but its not possible in some map like taldarim.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On March 16 2012 02:45 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote: How do you deal with Zealot/Storm comps? Whenever I play vs a Mech Terran, I go Zealot Storm. Mech takes a long time to rebuild, 15 gateways do not.
If the game goes late, mothership actually devastates mech as well with a vortex, you can easily kill 1/2 the army, warp in your replacements, and then kill the other half. And then you have carriers set up which actually destroy mech (even if they lose to marines). I don't think I've ever lost to a real mech play. (i.e. not marine-tank) I just don't think it's the best build, especailly with protoss tending to go heavy gateway/upgrade late game play styles.
A few ways. First, banshees force Stalkers. You can force a lot of Stalker warp ins with a few Banshees which cut into both Zealot and Templar production. Second, Ghosts of course! EMP and Snipe > Storm and Feedback as we all know, so you have the advantage in that fight. And then as far as the core of the army, Siege Tanks, BFH, and fast +2 Mech Armor. Siege Tanks mean that any HT who wants to storm your army dies. BFH are just good against a ton of Chargelots for obvious reasons, and they can force even more Stalker warp ins with runbys, and by kiting the army forever lol.
Also, I've found you can take a faster third against Chargelot/Templar armies as a PF (as opposed to Protosses who go Colossus tech first).
About Mothership: yeah getting off a decent Vortex is basically GG just like in PvZ, but there is no excuse for not EMP'ing a Mothership. It is a huge slow moving target. It's really easy to EMP. The handful of times I have faced Carriers, Thors + Ghosts + 2/2 or 3/3 Battlecruisers just rocks it, because I started upgrading my air a lot sooner than they did, if they did at all.
Never have I faced a Mass Carrier army though, just 2 or 3. Another player said he deals with any sort of mass Air Toss with Raven + HSM, Ghosts, Thors, and Vikings.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On March 16 2012 03:14 DaeWang790 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 02:41 ZjiublingZ wrote:On March 16 2012 02:31 DoctorFunk wrote:On March 15 2012 12:08 ZjiublingZ wrote:On March 15 2012 12:00 DaeWang790 wrote:On March 15 2012 11:55 ZjiublingZ wrote:On March 15 2012 11:49 rauk wrote:On March 15 2012 11:33 ZjiublingZ wrote:On March 15 2012 11:16 rauk wrote:On March 15 2012 10:52 ZjiublingZ wrote: [quote]
It's very easy to discuss a Strategy that "doesn't work". If by "doesn't work" you mean it isn't solid enough to become standard play. Clearly it can work against extremely skilled players. We saw MKP pull if off against Genius. Regardless of how Genius fucked up, MKP's build was still optimized, and had many elements worthy of discussion, and most importantly, isn't perfect. It can be improved. The same is true for all Mech. Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly, but there are plenty of guides about specific builds here on TL that don't work when your opponent responds correctly. It isn't helpful to debate or discuss that. It is helpful to discuss ways to improve those builds. /b] you saw MKP almost fuck up a completely won game where he's 100 supply ahead against genius BECAUSE he's mech. that should tell you more than anything how bad mech is. if you want to go with "it works against someone who doesn't know what they're doing" then there's not much more i can say lol. 1) It's hilarious that you think that Genius is someone who doesn't know what he is doing. As if you could have responded better. Hindsight is 20/20 isn't it? 2) You are missing the point. The point is, MKP didn't play perfectly. The point is that we can, through discussion in this thread aptly named "How to Mech TvP", improve Mech builds, openings, analyze Mech PvT replays and discuss how to improve the players play. Even if Mech ultimately is an inferior style vs Protoss, there are still ways to play it that are better than others. That's what we can discuss. So please, do show yourself out since you clearly have nothing to contribute in a thread named "How to Mech TvP". If you still want to have your debate where neither side can prove they are 100% right, make a thread called "Is Mech viable in TvP" and continue your discussion there. genius is behind 30 workers and 50 army supply but crushes mkp's army anyways. it's pretty hard to lose no matter what you're doing if your opponent is that far behind, but mkp still almost manages to do so. i am referring to your "Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly" that if you want to do that, it's pointless. Okay, thank you for sharing your opinion. I think that about wraps it up. Now this thread can move forward to discuss How to Mech TvP without you. Ill start. I've found that their is a timing I can hit Protoss with about 4-5 ghosts and 2 1/1 Battlecruisers, Siege Tanks, 2-3 Thors, BFH's, 4 Banshees and a Raven and it's really strong at cutting the Protoss off from expanding while you continue to rally in Battlecruisers. At that point, they have nothing to deal with Battlecruisers except Stalkers which are a joke (especially with Raven and Tank support). It hits right around 170 supply usually. It works really well on maps where you can take a fairly fast third as PF (11-12 minutes), and maps where you can abuse cliffs with Siege Tanks and Battlecruisers for vision. Cloud Kingdom is a great expample. It isn't effective if they started producing Void Rays early enough after scouting the Fusion Core (although the scouting is really easy to deny), but even 4 Void Rays against 1/1 Battlecruisers + Thor's and EMP for additional support aren't enough. Also, it's really important to EMP your Battlecruisers and Thors before you push, unless you have a ton of confidence in your Ghost micro. So I'd like to state that I don't think mech is viable in TvP. Your composition seems like it takes too long and is not even at max supply. That doesn't even make sense. It's a timing. It is supposed to hit at that time. It isn't a composition that's necessary to have earlier, or later. I am saying I have found it works at that timing. Later and they can build up defenses for Battlecruisers, earlier and you have to sacrifice too much of your core army to get the Battlecruisers. But since you are commenting on the timing, what is your experience with it? How do you think it can be improved? you can't have a battle cruiser ghost Thor timing. A lot of shit happens before then. Have you been practicing against bronze Ai that just lets you sit there and build whatever you want? Are you asking me how I get to 3 bases and how I get that army up? So you have a build order that has a specific timing after securing three bases against protoss? Another problem is that you only have 170 supply, so that's roughly about 100 supply in army if you're on three bases. Then 2 battlecruisers, 3 thors, 3 tanks, 4 banshees, one raven and 5 ghosts comes out to about 60 supply. Then there is about 40 supply in additional tanks and hellions. Even still, it doesn't seem like it's a composition that wins because it's powerful, but because your opponent doesn't play well against it.
I think you might be misunderstanding my use of timing, here is the definition I am using (from Liquipedia):
Player-Based Timings
Tech Completion At the completion of an upgrade your army will have a sharp increase in strength. This can be a good time to attack the opponent. As time goes on, the opponent may complete upgrades or get more units evening out the advantage. Another timing is to move out early with one or a few advanced units, using the increased strength of the new unit to make your attack that much stronger.
The attack hinges on the 1/1 Battlecruisers, so I move out as soon as I can safely get to that Tech and the first round of Battlecruisers pops out. Keep in mind I don't just do the hands down every game, If I'm at a severe disadvantage in the game from whatever reason, I will wait to max out for sure. I only do it against the standard HT/Colossus Upgrade heavy gateway army composition. If they go Void Rays fast enough, they can deal with the Battlecruisers, and thus the attack loses its strength. Also, I don't go up to 70 SCV's when meching, you just don't want or need that many Minerals IMO. 16 per mineral field with Mules is more than enough for minerals.
As far as winning because its a powerful composition vs. my opponent not responding correctly. Outside of build order wins, I can't think of a situation/composition where an opponent loses even if they respond correctly (and aren't already far behind). It's a powerful composition against a Protoss who invests in Colossus and HT, instead of in Void Rays. But it isn't an all in, or an auto lose if he has 4-5 Void Rays. Basically this is how it operates within my TvP Mech games. As I'm taking a third, I am also scouting / harassing with Hellions and Banshees. If I scout he has gone for the standard Protoss deathball of Templar Tech and Colossus, then I know I'm good to go and I lay down my second Tech Labbed Starport and Fusion Core and go for it. If I scout Stargate Tech already in production, then my second Starport gets reactored and makes Vikings. I'm not saying it is like some auto-win vs a Protoss who doesn't make Void Rays, but in my experience it is a superior composition to Colossus/HT deathballs when micro'd correctly (as always in TvP, the Ghost/HT battle decides a lot). That said, I don't believe it's perfect or anywhere near it, just that I haven't encountered any problems with it yet.
No offense, but you keep saying "It seems...", when I've tested this scenario in easily 50+ games. Don't you think you should test it yourself instead of just making assumptions when you have no experience with it?
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On March 16 2012 04:02 ZjiublingZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 03:14 DaeWang790 wrote:On March 16 2012 02:41 ZjiublingZ wrote:On March 16 2012 02:31 DoctorFunk wrote:On March 15 2012 12:08 ZjiublingZ wrote:On March 15 2012 12:00 DaeWang790 wrote:On March 15 2012 11:55 ZjiublingZ wrote:On March 15 2012 11:49 rauk wrote:On March 15 2012 11:33 ZjiublingZ wrote:On March 15 2012 11:16 rauk wrote: [quote]
you saw MKP almost fuck up a completely won game where he's 100 supply ahead against genius BECAUSE he's mech. that should tell you more than anything how bad mech is.
if you want to go with "it works against someone who doesn't know what they're doing" then there's not much more i can say lol. 1) It's hilarious that you think that Genius is someone who doesn't know what he is doing. As if you could have responded better. Hindsight is 20/20 isn't it? 2) You are missing the point. The point is, MKP didn't play perfectly. The point is that we can, through discussion in this thread aptly named "How to Mech TvP", improve Mech builds, openings, analyze Mech PvT replays and discuss how to improve the players play. Even if Mech ultimately is an inferior style vs Protoss, there are still ways to play it that are better than others. That's what we can discuss. So please, do show yourself out since you clearly have nothing to contribute in a thread named "How to Mech TvP". If you still want to have your debate where neither side can prove they are 100% right, make a thread called "Is Mech viable in TvP" and continue your discussion there. genius is behind 30 workers and 50 army supply but crushes mkp's army anyways. it's pretty hard to lose no matter what you're doing if your opponent is that far behind, but mkp still almost manages to do so. i am referring to your "Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly" that if you want to do that, it's pointless. Okay, thank you for sharing your opinion. I think that about wraps it up. Now this thread can move forward to discuss How to Mech TvP without you. Ill start. I've found that their is a timing I can hit Protoss with about 4-5 ghosts and 2 1/1 Battlecruisers, Siege Tanks, 2-3 Thors, BFH's, 4 Banshees and a Raven and it's really strong at cutting the Protoss off from expanding while you continue to rally in Battlecruisers. At that point, they have nothing to deal with Battlecruisers except Stalkers which are a joke (especially with Raven and Tank support). It hits right around 170 supply usually. It works really well on maps where you can take a fairly fast third as PF (11-12 minutes), and maps where you can abuse cliffs with Siege Tanks and Battlecruisers for vision. Cloud Kingdom is a great expample. It isn't effective if they started producing Void Rays early enough after scouting the Fusion Core (although the scouting is really easy to deny), but even 4 Void Rays against 1/1 Battlecruisers + Thor's and EMP for additional support aren't enough. Also, it's really important to EMP your Battlecruisers and Thors before you push, unless you have a ton of confidence in your Ghost micro. So I'd like to state that I don't think mech is viable in TvP. Your composition seems like it takes too long and is not even at max supply. That doesn't even make sense. It's a timing. It is supposed to hit at that time. It isn't a composition that's necessary to have earlier, or later. I am saying I have found it works at that timing. Later and they can build up defenses for Battlecruisers, earlier and you have to sacrifice too much of your core army to get the Battlecruisers. But since you are commenting on the timing, what is your experience with it? How do you think it can be improved? you can't have a battle cruiser ghost Thor timing. A lot of shit happens before then. Have you been practicing against bronze Ai that just lets you sit there and build whatever you want? Are you asking me how I get to 3 bases and how I get that army up? So you have a build order that has a specific timing after securing three bases against protoss? Another problem is that you only have 170 supply, so that's roughly about 100 supply in army if you're on three bases. Then 2 battlecruisers, 3 thors, 3 tanks, 4 banshees, one raven and 5 ghosts comes out to about 60 supply. Then there is about 40 supply in additional tanks and hellions. Even still, it doesn't seem like it's a composition that wins because it's powerful, but because your opponent doesn't play well against it. I think you might be misunderstanding my use of timing, here is the definition I am using (from Liquipedia): Player-Based Timings Tech Completion At the completion of an upgrade your army will have a sharp increase in strength. This can be a good time to attack the opponent. As time goes on, the opponent may complete upgrades or get more units evening out the advantage. Another timing is to move out early with one or a few advanced units, using the increased strength of the new unit to make your attack that much stronger.The attack hinges on the 1/1 Battlecruisers, so I move out as soon as I can safely get to that Tech and the first round of Battlecruisers pops out. Keep in mind I don't just do the hands down every game, If I'm at a severe disadvantage in the game from whatever reason, I will wait to max out for sure. I only do it against the standard HT/Colossus Upgrade heavy gateway army composition. If they go Void Rays fast enough, they can deal with the Battlecruisers, and thus the attack loses its strength. Also, I don't go up to 70 SCV's when meching, you just don't want or need that many Minerals IMO. 16 per mineral field with Mules is more than enough for minerals. As far as winning because its a powerful composition vs. my opponent not responding correctly. Outside of build order wins, I can't think of a situation/composition where an opponent loses even if they respond correctly (and aren't already far behind). It's a powerful composition against a Protoss who invests in Colossus and HT, instead of in Void Rays. But it isn't an all in, or an auto lose if he has 4-5 Void Rays. Basically this is how it operates within my TvP Mech games. As I'm taking a third, I am also scouting / harassing with Hellions and Banshees. If I scout he has gone for the standard Protoss deathball of Templar Tech and Colossus, then I know I'm good to go and I lay down my second Tech Labbed Starport and Fusion Core and go for it. If I scout Stargate Tech already in production, then my second Starport gets reactored and makes Vikings. I'm not saying it is like some auto-win vs a Protoss who doesn't make Void Rays, but in my experience it is a superior composition to Colossus/HT deathballs when micro'd correctly (as always in TvP, the Ghost/HT battle decides a lot). That said, I don't believe it's perfect or anywhere near it, just that I haven't encountered any problems with it yet. No offense, but you keep saying "It seems...", when I've tested this scenario in easily 50+ games. Don't you think you should test it yourself instead of just making assumptions when you have no experience with it?
I would've preferred it if you had explained your timing was based around the production of battlecruisers, in addition to detailing what other units you have. I'll apologize for not understanding immediately that your attack timing relied on the access to battlecruisers.
If you have three mining bases with 16 scv's on minerals and 6 on gas at each base, that comes out to 66 scv's, which is not a far cry from having 70 scv's.
While it is true that I have not tested this build, if you would provide a more detailed style build that you use, as well as a list of which maps you find this strategy to be best used on, I would not mind trying it out.
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I've toyed with a mech build against toss as well. The most issues I found is that, yes, blink-stalker and warp prisms are very mobile and can easily get around your army, also, any type of heavy immo play just wrecks this build. Also early harass against any type of expo hurts this build due to lack of gas. It's still a very strong build none the less, just some flaws that need to be ground out eventually.
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My personal advices or answers to your flaws : - Blink stalker can be dealt with by well placed sensor towers, allowing you to put ur vikings in position to snipe obs, or bring some hellions/banshees/ravens to deal with it. . . warp prism can be a bit harder, in late game u can afford mass sensor towers, but in early game it's more all about placing some missile turrets,and maybe some patrolling vikings. -Heavy immo play is, in my opinion, one of the worst idea as (in my own conception of mech) a mech army will always have ghosts, some air , and a good "buffer" of cheap units (marines early game, hellions after that). -For the harass in early game,well,that's why mech need really accurate builds (and that's why most people say mech is bad,because they try mech once or twice with a random build and fail). personally i'm using two mains builds : a 111 expo (probably the safest thing possible) and 12 rax 18 double gaz 22 CC into cloakshee,really greedier and requiring more scouting to survive, but can hold a lots of things too and the super early double gas allows a lots of things in midgame
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On March 16 2012 04:18 DaeWang790 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 04:02 ZjiublingZ wrote:On March 16 2012 03:14 DaeWang790 wrote:On March 16 2012 02:41 ZjiublingZ wrote:On March 16 2012 02:31 DoctorFunk wrote:On March 15 2012 12:08 ZjiublingZ wrote:On March 15 2012 12:00 DaeWang790 wrote:On March 15 2012 11:55 ZjiublingZ wrote:On March 15 2012 11:49 rauk wrote:On March 15 2012 11:33 ZjiublingZ wrote: [quote]
1) It's hilarious that you think that Genius is someone who doesn't know what he is doing. As if you could have responded better. Hindsight is 20/20 isn't it?
2) You are missing the point. The point is, MKP didn't play perfectly. The point is that we can, through discussion in this thread aptly named "How to Mech TvP", improve Mech builds, openings, analyze Mech PvT replays and discuss how to improve the players play. Even if Mech ultimately is an inferior style vs Protoss, there are still ways to play it that are better than others. That's what we can discuss.
So please, do show yourself out since you clearly have nothing to contribute in a thread named "How to Mech TvP". If you still want to have your debate where neither side can prove they are 100% right, make a thread called "Is Mech viable in TvP" and continue your discussion there. genius is behind 30 workers and 50 army supply but crushes mkp's army anyways. it's pretty hard to lose no matter what you're doing if your opponent is that far behind, but mkp still almost manages to do so. i am referring to your "Perhaps Mech can't compete with a Protoss who responds correctly" that if you want to do that, it's pointless. Okay, thank you for sharing your opinion. I think that about wraps it up. Now this thread can move forward to discuss How to Mech TvP without you. Ill start. I've found that their is a timing I can hit Protoss with about 4-5 ghosts and 2 1/1 Battlecruisers, Siege Tanks, 2-3 Thors, BFH's, 4 Banshees and a Raven and it's really strong at cutting the Protoss off from expanding while you continue to rally in Battlecruisers. At that point, they have nothing to deal with Battlecruisers except Stalkers which are a joke (especially with Raven and Tank support). It hits right around 170 supply usually. It works really well on maps where you can take a fairly fast third as PF (11-12 minutes), and maps where you can abuse cliffs with Siege Tanks and Battlecruisers for vision. Cloud Kingdom is a great expample. It isn't effective if they started producing Void Rays early enough after scouting the Fusion Core (although the scouting is really easy to deny), but even 4 Void Rays against 1/1 Battlecruisers + Thor's and EMP for additional support aren't enough. Also, it's really important to EMP your Battlecruisers and Thors before you push, unless you have a ton of confidence in your Ghost micro. So I'd like to state that I don't think mech is viable in TvP. Your composition seems like it takes too long and is not even at max supply. That doesn't even make sense. It's a timing. It is supposed to hit at that time. It isn't a composition that's necessary to have earlier, or later. I am saying I have found it works at that timing. Later and they can build up defenses for Battlecruisers, earlier and you have to sacrifice too much of your core army to get the Battlecruisers. But since you are commenting on the timing, what is your experience with it? How do you think it can be improved? you can't have a battle cruiser ghost Thor timing. A lot of shit happens before then. Have you been practicing against bronze Ai that just lets you sit there and build whatever you want? Are you asking me how I get to 3 bases and how I get that army up? So you have a build order that has a specific timing after securing three bases against protoss? Another problem is that you only have 170 supply, so that's roughly about 100 supply in army if you're on three bases. Then 2 battlecruisers, 3 thors, 3 tanks, 4 banshees, one raven and 5 ghosts comes out to about 60 supply. Then there is about 40 supply in additional tanks and hellions. Even still, it doesn't seem like it's a composition that wins because it's powerful, but because your opponent doesn't play well against it. I think you might be misunderstanding my use of timing, here is the definition I am using (from Liquipedia): Player-Based Timings Tech Completion At the completion of an upgrade your army will have a sharp increase in strength. This can be a good time to attack the opponent. As time goes on, the opponent may complete upgrades or get more units evening out the advantage. Another timing is to move out early with one or a few advanced units, using the increased strength of the new unit to make your attack that much stronger.The attack hinges on the 1/1 Battlecruisers, so I move out as soon as I can safely get to that Tech and the first round of Battlecruisers pops out. Keep in mind I don't just do the hands down every game, If I'm at a severe disadvantage in the game from whatever reason, I will wait to max out for sure. I only do it against the standard HT/Colossus Upgrade heavy gateway army composition. If they go Void Rays fast enough, they can deal with the Battlecruisers, and thus the attack loses its strength. Also, I don't go up to 70 SCV's when meching, you just don't want or need that many Minerals IMO. 16 per mineral field with Mules is more than enough for minerals. As far as winning because its a powerful composition vs. my opponent not responding correctly. Outside of build order wins, I can't think of a situation/composition where an opponent loses even if they respond correctly (and aren't already far behind). It's a powerful composition against a Protoss who invests in Colossus and HT, instead of in Void Rays. But it isn't an all in, or an auto lose if he has 4-5 Void Rays. Basically this is how it operates within my TvP Mech games. As I'm taking a third, I am also scouting / harassing with Hellions and Banshees. If I scout he has gone for the standard Protoss deathball of Templar Tech and Colossus, then I know I'm good to go and I lay down my second Tech Labbed Starport and Fusion Core and go for it. If I scout Stargate Tech already in production, then my second Starport gets reactored and makes Vikings. I'm not saying it is like some auto-win vs a Protoss who doesn't make Void Rays, but in my experience it is a superior composition to Colossus/HT deathballs when micro'd correctly (as always in TvP, the Ghost/HT battle decides a lot). That said, I don't believe it's perfect or anywhere near it, just that I haven't encountered any problems with it yet. No offense, but you keep saying "It seems...", when I've tested this scenario in easily 50+ games. Don't you think you should test it yourself instead of just making assumptions when you have no experience with it? I would've preferred it if you had explained your timing was based around the production of battlecruisers, in addition to detailing what other units you have. I'll apologize for not understanding immediately that your attack timing relied on the access to battlecruisers. If you have three mining bases with 16 scv's on minerals and 6 on gas at each base, that comes out to 66 scv's, which is not a far cry from having 70 scv's. While it is true that I have not tested this build, if you would provide a more detailed style build that you use, as well as a list of which maps you find this strategy to be best used on, I would not mind trying it out.
Sorry if I wasn't clear about the BC's being critical, I thought this made it obvious:
"Later and they can build up defenses for Battlecruisers, earlier and you have to sacrifice too much of your core army to get the Battlecruisers"
But yeah, they are the brunt of the army, and they force more Stalkers and less Zealots, which IMO is a huge deal in Mech vs Protoss. About the SCV thing, it really isn't a big deal, but like I said, 16 on each mineral patch with Mules is more than enough. I shoot for 60 SCV's total (14 per mineral patch on 3 bases).
Okay I'll do my best to explain how I go about Meching in TvP. I open with Vile Illusions Cloak Banshee/Thor/Marine opening you can see in Day9 Daily #396. Keep in mind if you do enough damage with your banshees you can push with that composition and do a ton of damage if not outright end the game there. Then after 2 or 3 Thors (I don't know which is better yet, the third Thor helps if you are expecting a timing/all in soon, but delays your Tank production, and the faster Tanks help you take a faster third) I lay down 2 more factories, one on the reactor rax, and one I add a tech lab to. Cut Banshees at 4 - they are pretty awful against upgraded Stalkers. I then go into double tank and hellion production, research Siege and BFH, then adding in Ghosts and a 3rd CC as resources allow (Cut SCV's at 60). Scout for the Templar/Colossus Deathball, take your third, add in a second Starport and a Fusion Core, and go for the BCs. Attack when they both pop if everything has gone as planned and continue to rally them in while slow pushing from his 4th (or 3rd if he took a far away 4th, cut it off, and just send a few hellions to clean it up).
Upgrades: I don't know for certain, but I go with the fast +1 armor, add second Armory as it is finishing, then go +1 Mech Weapons and +1 Ship Weapons, and from then on Ship Weapons and Ship Armor.
EDIT: Right, the maps. The best IMO are Antiga, Shakuras, and Cloud Kingdom. Maps like Korhal Compound make it REALLY hard to take your third this fast.
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When I mech I dont have a problem with the unit composition, the problem is to be outmacro ! How do you stop expo of a toss ? This is mostly why mech is bad in my opinion.
For exemple in a typical midgame vs a good toss player : I have 3 base and the toss take like 6 base and I can't put any pressure because I don't have enought force too move out and he puts some canons just to be sure i can't use helion and banshee.
Probably you're thinking: I dont care to be outmacro because my max food with battlecruise will crushed anything. But its not true when you're outmacro you can't beat the warpgate infinite army.
so my question: HOW YOU STOP PROTOSS TO EXPAND IN THE MIDGAME???
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On March 16 2012 05:35 Gyro_SC2 wrote: When I mech I dont have a problem with the unit composition, the problem is to be outmacro ! How do you stop expo of a toss ? This is mostly why mech is bad in my opinion.
For exemple in a typical midgame vs a good toss player : I have 3 base and the toss take like 6 base and I can't put any pressure because I don't have enought force too move out and he puts some canons just to be sure i can't use helion and banshee.
Probably you're thinking: I dont care to be outmacro because my max food with battlecruise will crushed anything. But its not true when you're outmacro you can't beat the warpgate infinite army.
so my question: HOW YOU STOP PROTOSS TO EXPAND IN THE MIDGAME???
My answer to that is simple : just expo as much as him while getting macro orbitals and putting some pressure with hellion and banshee. The 'orbital per expo" ratio depends of the pressure he's putting on you.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On March 16 2012 05:35 Gyro_SC2 wrote: When I mech I dont have a problem with the unit composition, the problem is to be outmacro ! How do you stop expo of a toss ? This is mostly why mech is bad in my opinion.
For exemple in a typical midgame vs a good toss player : I have 3 base and the toss take like 6 base and I can't put any pressure because I don't have enought force too move out and he puts some canons just to be sure i can't use helion and banshee.
Probably you're thinking: I dont care to be outmacro because my max food with battlecruise will crushed anything. But its not true when you're outmacro you can't beat the warpgate infinite army.
so my question: HOW YOU STOP PROTOSS TO EXPAND IN THE MIDGAME???
The same way you stop it in TvZ. You have a few possible timings you can attack if they decide to get too greedy at any stage. For example, you have a two base timing that hits ~11:00 if the Protoss decides to take a super fast third, and then you have another one at ~15:00, and then you max out at, say, ~18:00. This is the hard thing to figure out with Meching, to make a build that has possible timings but you aren't too committed to them, while still knowing what to look for that gives you the green light for those timings. That's why I think it's super important we all figure out as many Mech Timings as we can, at different times throughout the game. Then we can see if a late game Protoss army is actually stronger than a late game Mech army OR if Protoss has been able to get away with things that are actually greedy, we just don't know how to punish them yet.
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@ Lyyna:
I noticed you get blue flame pretty fast, any particular reason for this? I think siege mode might be better, makes you safe vs. that mass gate early pressure timing off 2-3base becoming popular lately. Also blue flame just doesnt seem to be any good to me. Siege mode is way better of defense and its not even good for harassment since workers will still take 3 shots. Only situation it might help is for picking off sentries but they are pretty much useless vs. mech anyways.
As for the timing pushes: I think mech has very potent 2base timings vs. toss that take an early/greedy third. You should check Lyynas replay pack, theres some strong 3fac marine banshee push. Also that 4fac push with 3reactored facs we've seen in the gsl multiple times works very well.
Not sure about that ghost battlecruiser timing to kill 3rd or 4th base someone mentioned. Only tested it vs. a diamond player so far and it looked really strong if you can get into a good position but his scouting was very bad and counter attacks might be devastating.
If protoss techs up on 2bases getting double armory and preparing to take a faster third might be a good option. I dont like turtling to 200/200 however. Hellion drops and Banshees should be good harassing tools during that phase.
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Where can i find the rep pack?
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http://www.mediafire.com/?ka8g8kx5ksjzk
Basically, no BF or siege choice is a personal preference. It depends of my mood and my ressources when i start an uppgrade :D. But now i nearly always do siege first now.
Yeah, mech has some really cool pushs, like my 1 rax 3 fact 1 port push, and you can find a lots of these in my olds replays (like january-early feb). But i've now switched backed to pure defensive macro mech again
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Wow thanks mate, really good stuff!
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On March 17 2012 01:16 Lyyna wrote:http://www.mediafire.com/?ka8g8kx5ksjzkBasically, no BF or siege choice is a personal preference. It depends of my mood and my ressources when i start an uppgrade :D. But now i nearly always do siege first now. Yeah, mech has some really cool pushs, like my 1 rax 3 fact 1 port push, and you can find a lots of these in my olds replays (like january-early feb). But i've now switched backed to pure defensive macro mech again
What's your winrate in TvP with that super heavy turtle style you are currently playing? Because I'm about the same level on EU (maybe a little bit lower or higher? I don't know, I think you changed your name ) as you and I like to compare.
edit: Also, have you ever played against Eclipse? If so I'd like to have the replays. Lost twice in the last couple of weeks and would like to see how your style works against it.
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As an estimation, i'm at like 60-70ish % win vs protoss on the ladder.
Eclipse? Sounds familiar ,but cant find any replay vs him.
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Very good replay pack Lyyna!
In lategame scenario do you feel like you must never attack and try to cut the map in half. If you trade both army, the toss should win so I guess I must turtle and keep my 200food army +strutucture ?
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Yeah, i avoid as much as possible to trade army. But even if he's trying too, i know i'll be ahead as long as he fights WHERE i choose to fight, HOW i choose to fights. That's one of the advantage of pure turtling : i cant be out of position
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