On March 30 2012 17:39 haduken wrote: It's not about who likes who on this scale. Nations don't have to like each other, they are more interested in who is more useful to one another. I have no doubt that a lot of Chinese hates Kim's guts but that doesn't stop North Korean being a very effective political pawn when they need them to be one.
China spend thousands of lives and countless millions in funds and resources to support the regime, I doubt that can happen without some sort of exchange in return. North Korean is broke, so the only thing they have to offer is political in nature.
The exchange is that they don't fall apart. The exchange is that North-Korean remains strong enough to keep its own population caged.
If all those millions spill into the southern regions of China, it is a disaster. These people will either take Chinese jobs, become criminals, or be drains on society.
The Chinese government wants to keep its growth numbers above 8%, widely considered the baseline growth numbers that China needs to avoid social unrest.
If you get a sudden influx of millions of people into the economic heart of your nation, that isn't going to do a lot of good in terms of growth numbers.
Yes, China has a billion people living in it, and it is a very big country, but the part of China where the economy happens, isn't that big. All those North-Koreans would throw a serious wrench in the works.
Any invasion of North-Korea should happen with the promise that China gets to administer the region. They just want to protect their economic interests. If they can keep the North-Koreans in North-Korea, they will be perfectly happy.
China doesn't want a buffer state. Even if they did, North-Korea is a horrible buffer state, they never listen, they just do whatever they feel like. They would love a giant Korea that was like South-Korea, ready to buy a ton of stuff from them. Hell, with a land route their business relations would grow even more.
One Korea, build like South-Korea, would be an incredible economic boon.
North-Korea is the retarded neighbour that can't relied upon. And yes, even China has to fear North-Korean nukes. They just aren't reliable.
Now you are just making assumptions. I for one do not believe that China is content to just keep NK from falling apart.
North Korea is in fact very useful for Chinese ambitions, it is a card that China can play and West can not attack directly without de-stabilising the entire east Asia.
In the event of war, North Korean refugees will never gain access to south China, they will be contained in Manchuria, very likely in the Korean autonomous regions like Yanbian.
The amount China has to spend to keep them there will be negligible in the grand scheme. South Koreans will probably pay as they are morally obliged to feed their own people.
It is grossly dangerous to conclude that Chinese concerns is solely of economical reasons. Two Chinese dynasties fall apart when losing control in Korean affairs, the current regime is not about to make the same mistake again. A unified Korean peninsula that is not aligned with China would be unacceptable to China.
The (low) level of discourse in this thread is Alzheimer's-inducing. The ignorance meter has just been cranked to 11.
For the record, any time any nation state announces plans to develop and test ballistics technology in the professed name of space exploration, scientitifc research, near-Earth orbit satellite deployment and the like, that's code for "we'd like to develop and test intercontinental missile delivery systems, but can't say that publicly so we'll call it science instead and laugh while 99% of the obviously braindead people of the world believe what we say, haha".
I'm talking about Japan, Korea (South), India, etc., all part of the club of nations that have made in recent years seemingly innocuous announcements about the launching of satellites, the research and development of related "rocket technology", etc. Space race? Rockets? Missiles? Get a clue people, the technology and engineering are for practical purposes identical.
Of course, the US, China, Russia, UK, France (ie The Fab Five of the UN Security Council) don't need to play that game because, well, they got there first and then made up rules to stop anyone else from achieving essentially the same capability. If you want to talk about the destabilizing proliferation of long-range armament delivery systems, look no further than the governments operating in your back yard.
Unless you live in Sweden, in which case all you care about is video games and ABBA.
North Korea? Please. They are hanging on by their finger nails. They pose no more credible threat to the US than does Cuba.
Thanks. You make me play about one more game SC2 today because I don't need to write down what you wrote Yea it sucks. Yea it sucks even harder for the people who maybe suffer from the outcome. But seriously NK is down broke and done. Considering it a direct threat, maybe for SK or Japan. But not the world. Tho the political dance happening around it sure is interesting and worth following.
Btw really really like how you put that part: "Of course, the US, China, Russia, UK, France (ie The Fab Five of the UN Security Council) don't need to play that game because, well, they got there first and then made up rules" So well written ^^
The (low) level of discourse in this thread is Alzheimer's-inducing. The ignorance meter has just been cranked to 11.
For the record, any time any nation state announces plans to develop and test ballistics technology in the professed name of space exploration, scientitifc research, near-Earth orbit satellite deployment and the like, that's code for "we'd like to develop and test intercontinental missile delivery systems, but can't say that publicly so we'll call it science instead and laugh while 99% of the obviously braindead people of the world believe what we say, haha".
I'm talking about Japan, Korea (South), India, etc., all part of the club of nations that have made in recent years seemingly innocuous announcements about the launching of satellites, the research and development of related "rocket technology", etc. Space race? Rockets? Missiles? Get a clue people, the technology and engineering are for practical purposes identical.
Of course, the US, China, Russia, UK, France (ie The Fab Five of the UN Security Council) don't need to play that game because, well, they got there first and then made up rules to stop anyone else from achieving essentially the same capability. If you want to talk about the destabilizing proliferation of long-range armament delivery systems, look no further than the governments operating in your back yard.
Unless you live in Sweden, in which case all you care about is video games and ABBA.
North Korea? Please. They are hanging on by their finger nails. They pose no more credible threat to the US than does Cuba.
I agree with almost everything you said, but the last part, which is still true btw. But I worry about NK because of the threat it poses to SK (and maybe Japan and other neighbours).
Funny thing is, that North Korean media reported this as the launch of "friendly rockets" - That made me lol.. Obviously something was lost in translation or something.. Friendly rockets, hooo!
I can't believe some nation hasn't just nuked their little fucking Pyongyang capitol yet. If not for the repressed citizens who lived there, international organizations would probably just pat anyone on the back who decided to do so. North Korea is literally the internet troll of the world, everyone just wants their shitty government gone.
.. What am I missing here on didn't people read? It's a satellite... why shouldn't they be allowed to have their own satellites? Unless you can prove it's meant for other things than what they say you got no case to object.
On March 30 2012 19:08 DwD wrote: .. What am I missing here on didn't people read? It's a satellite... why shouldn't they be allowed to have their own satellites? Unless you can prove it's meant for other things than what they say you got no case to object.
On March 30 2012 19:08 DwD wrote: .. What am I missing here on didn't people read? It's a satellite... why shouldn't they be allowed to have their own satellites? Unless you can prove it's meant for other things than what they say you got no case to object.
The (low) level of discourse in this thread is Alzheimer's-inducing. The ignorance meter has just been cranked to 11.
For the record, any time any nation state announces plans to develop and test ballistics technology in the professed name of space exploration, scientitifc research, near-Earth orbit satellite deployment and the like, that's code for "we'd like to develop and test intercontinental missile delivery systems, but can't say that publicly so we'll call it science instead and laugh while 99% of the obviously braindead people of the world believe what we say, haha".
I'm talking about Japan, Korea (South), India, etc., all part of the club of nations that have made in recent years seemingly innocuous announcements about the launching of satellites, the research and development of related "rocket technology", etc. Space race? Rockets? Missiles? Get a clue people, the technology and engineering are for practical purposes identical.
Of course, the US, China, Russia, UK, France (ie The Fab Five of the UN Security Council) don't need to play that game because, well, they got there first and then made up rules to stop anyone else from achieving essentially the same capability. If you want to talk about the destabilizing proliferation of long-range armament delivery systems, look no further than the governments operating in your back yard.
Unless you live in Sweden, in which case all you care about is video games and ABBA.
North Korea? Please. They are hanging on by their finger nails. They pose no more credible threat to the US than does Cuba.
Well, iirc, there is a restriction for all other countries that dont have nuclear weapons currently, to have up to only a certain amount of uranium such that they can't create a nuclear weapon, so i don't think japan, south korea etc would bother to develop intercontinental missile delivery, unless there are other uses for it.
On March 30 2012 19:08 DwD wrote: .. What am I missing here on didn't people read? It's a satellite... why shouldn't they be allowed to have their own satellites? Unless you can prove it's meant for other things than what they say you got no case to object.
Seriously? You seriously think NK is interested in shooting up some satellites to get satellite radio or something?
This reminds me of Mobutu Sese Seko's short lived Zairian space program. They also attempted to launch a satellite, however all they really managed to accomplish was creating a pretty cool fireball when the rocket's guidence system failed and it slammed into the jungle. Good times.
Every state has the right to launch civil space projects. They have informed the UN with all the necessary data, the launch is fully compliant with international rules.
And in some years, you will be happy if there is one country left with the technology to launch communication satellites without build-in censorship from the RIAA ACTA SOPA.