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On September 29 2012 23:55 iamtrickster wrote: Listen...chances are...if we trace back the people we have all had sex with.. we have all had sex everyone in this thread has fucked each other....well that's fun.
Go America
lol
I think one of the issues with Amerterdam being "prostitute central" may just be that its one of the few places where prostitution is so openly legal. I'm not sure but I suspect that once you start to see more open attitudes in other countries, people won't have to flock to Amsterdam to enjoy prostitution services, and so all the negative side effects of being a big magnet for that will also be reduced to the point of being manageable.
Its an interesting situation, because if its illegal it becomes more dangerous for prostitutes. If its legal, then maybe that opens the door for people to run more brothels but still secretly abuse their women. I'm not really sure which one is safer, but I think for one the government is going to have an easier time dealing with prostitution if its in the open rather than hidden in random apartment buildings or seedy neighbourhoods. And secondly, they also have to consider that many women have a legitimate human right to work in that occupation if they want to, and they deserve recognition and protection like anyone else.
So you could either work hard to stop all prostitution everywhere (nearly impossible), or you could work hard to prevent the abuse of women but respect their rights (and you only have to police certain areas, which makes it easier). I would prefer the latter. Also morally speaking I don't see anything wrong with prostitution, if the girl truly enjoys sex and the guy wants to have an amazing time (sexually) that he can't get otherwise, why not?
For the girls that go into it strictly because they need money, it is unfortunate but in the end if women feel forced to become prostitutes to live a decent life, it says far more about problems in society than it does that prostitution is bad. I think the focus is on the wrong thing here. Even if a girl feels like she has to be raped in order to live a decent standard of life...are you going to take that choice away from her? She clearly did it because it was the better of two alternatives. At least she can live with prostitution. But the solution really lies in other areas (social programs, maybe improving minimum wage, etc.)
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On September 29 2012 14:13 either I or wrote: I like the effort that went to creating this thread. The OP provided good take off points for discussion. I am however disappointed that even at 7 pages now, we never had a true enlightening, violent or not, discussion on the matter.
All I'm reading are motherhood statements on freedom of choice, oldest profession, consensus between adults, and other general statements that do not really encourage discovery and creation of information on the issue. For this thread to really progress, we need to focus on the issues and have a comprehensive discussion on it, simultaneously or one at a time. Otherwise, everyone will just say "Legalize because freedom" or "Illegal because morality" and nothing more.
I want to focus the discussion on a key issue - prostitution as a better career option. The myth goes that it is better be a prostitute and make some money than to choose to work at a minimum wage job. The truth to this matter is instantly revealed once you consider the dynamics of its choice as a career option. Who become prostitutes? The poor and the underprivileged. Right away, there already are immediate preconditions which discriminate against the poor, thereby making the claim as a career option questionable. I support the Swedish model, prostitution, legal or illegal, is an institutionalized sexual oppression or as a human rights violation. Whether legal or not, the decision to enter prostitution is not a product of free choice or a selection among the options, but is possible only because of a lack of alternative survival options. Women who enter prostitution usually do not choose whether they want to be doctors, lawyers, astronauts, teacher, or prostitutes. This "choice" is therefore nothing more that a survival strategy, borne out of a lack of any real advantageous set of options. Thanks for this reply. Yes, I think if we really want to discuss this topic, we should flesh out the details.
On your points, do you consider this choice in the extreme duality/Kierkegaard sense, or simply as one of the practical choices?
EDIT: Ah, Friedrich Nietzsche beat me to it. You conceded too soon. Simply deny the non-choice option. Women, even if they argue it in philosophical terms, do not have to reach the non-choice end, that is, not choosing prostitution thereby not choosing any means of employment at all, to fulfill the condition of choice. The choice towards prostitution, by virtue of first principles, IS the non-choice.
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I seriously have no opinion about whether it should be totally allowed or totally forbidden. What makes me sick is the "in between" solution as we have in France. It's so damn hypocrite.
Make it a job like any other job, like in Netherland, or just go for total prohibition, like in Sweden.
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On September 30 2012 00:37 Biff The Understudy wrote: I seriously have no opinion about whether it should be totally allowed or totally forbidden. What makes me sick is the "in between" solution as we have in France. It's so damn hypocrite.
Make it a job like any other job, like in Netherland, or just go for total prohibition, like in Sweden.
What kind of solution do you have? I'm not sure if Sweden should even be thought of as 'limited legality'. The just of it is that it's illegal to buy but not to sell sex. This means that the prostitutes being drugged down and shipped from the third world and bought as sex slaves won't be charged themselves, but the person kidnapping them, selling them and buying them will. If something is illegal to buy, it's pretty much illegal.
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The basic principle of demand and supply works in here. Prostitution has many victims, but so does overexploitation of the work force (precious stones, our favourite electronics, sweatshops, etc.), child labour. As long as there is demand for sexual services, there will be supply, same with everything else. I'd rather have prostitution legalized, than prosecuted, at least the government will be wasting money on making sure the people involved have rights and responsibilities, rather than tracking down underground prostitution networks, where said people are abused on a daily basis and have no basic rights.
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I say legalize at times in life people take big risks stupid risks but really i see no reason to help out a man or women who did not think of protection before engaging in sexual acts and hereafter acquiring a transmitted infection/disease. Though difficult at times you should make it practice or just habit not to say I do understand even those spur of the moment necessities.
Protect yourself though it may be a fun and enjoyable experience you don't want to have sex for the first time and then figure out later that you should have been way more careful.
Finally I realize the general scope my post is showing though I will not go into the "what about rape?" issues though terrible at times I view it more as a case by case kind of thingy, other than that I bid you adieu.
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I think its best if it stays ilegal. Its a luxury so if it brings anything bad it can just go to hell for all I care. Perhaps when humans that do this become less stupid, then we can have it be legalized. Though if people were not as stupid there may not even be prostitution to begin with. As of course you burn a huge amount of money on that...
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On September 29 2012 23:55 iamtrickster wrote: Listen...chances are...if we trace back the people we have all had sex with.. we have all had sex everyone in this thread has fucked each other....well that's fun.
Go America
Uh... we all have a common ancestor, sure. But you can't go backwards dozens of generations and then also go forwards down other branches to come back to other people and say we've fucked each other.
lol. That's not really how it works.
Unless you're saying that the people I've fucked have fucked other people, who have fucked other people, who (...) have fucked you (across just this generation). Which is obviously just as absurd, considering TL is a global community and the vast majority of people on this site haven't had sex with a huge number of partners, let alone internationally.
I'd be surprised if a single pair of TL members ever shared a sex partner, even if you go through a second or third degree of connection.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On September 30 2012 02:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Which is obviously just as absurd, considering TL is a global community and the vast majority of people on this site haven't had sex.
I shortened your post for you. :p
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On September 30 2012 03:24 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 02:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Which is obviously just as absurd, considering TL is a global community and the vast majority of people on this site haven't had sex. I shortened your post for you. :p
LOL
At first I thought to myself, "I didn't really say it that way," and then I thought to myself, "but that's probably true too v.v".
Well done haha.
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On September 29 2012 23:55 iamtrickster wrote: Listen...chances are...if we trace back the people we have all had sex with.. we have all had sex everyone in this thread has fucked each other....well that's fun.
Go America
Not me because I'm a virgin
and I don't feel ashamed to say it because I've had offers for sex before... from both girls and boys
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Legal prostitution? O_o But there would be so few women left for us poor guys who are part of the lady gaga generation.. They'd all be out making easy money,, =/
On September 30 2012 08:16 Voltaire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 23:55 iamtrickster wrote: Listen...chances are...if we trace back the people we have all had sex with.. we have all had sex everyone in this thread has fucked each other....well that's fun.
Go America Not me because I'm a virgin and I don't feel ashamed to say it because I've had offers for sex before... from both girls and boys being a virgin is never something to be ashamed of.. I wish i was one,, when i was a virgin, sex was such a glorious thing,,
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On September 30 2012 08:19 Zinnwaldite wrote:Legal prostitution? O_o But there would be so few women left for us poor guys who are part of the lady gaga generation.. They'd all be out making easy money,, =/ Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 08:16 Voltaire wrote:On September 29 2012 23:55 iamtrickster wrote: Listen...chances are...if we trace back the people we have all had sex with.. we have all had sex everyone in this thread has fucked each other....well that's fun.
Go America Not me because I'm a virgin and I don't feel ashamed to say it because I've had offers for sex before... from both girls and boys being a virgin is never something to be ashamed of.. I wish i was one,, when i was a virgin, sex was such a glorious thing,,
and now that you've had it you're disappointed with it?
maybe you're just not having it with the right people
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On September 30 2012 08:16 Voltaire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 23:55 iamtrickster wrote: Listen...chances are...if we trace back the people we have all had sex with.. we have all had sex everyone in this thread has fucked each other....well that's fun.
Go America Not me because I'm a virgin and I don't feel ashamed to say it because I've had offers for sex before... from both girls and boys
Meh I think this forum has a 18+ general audience so I doubt anyone will give you a hard time over being a virgin, a good percent probably are so you're fine.
I'm more interested in the bisexual offerings, what's up with that? lol
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On September 30 2012 08:29 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 08:16 Voltaire wrote:On September 29 2012 23:55 iamtrickster wrote: Listen...chances are...if we trace back the people we have all had sex with.. we have all had sex everyone in this thread has fucked each other....well that's fun.
Go America Not me because I'm a virgin and I don't feel ashamed to say it because I've had offers for sex before... from both girls and boys Meh I think this forum has a 18+ general audience so I doubt anyone will give you a hard time over being a virgin, a good percent probably are so you're fine. I'm more interested in the bisexual offerings, what's up with that? lol
I'm in college. And at my college, there are lots of gay guys trying to have promiscuous sex. They are so indiscreet about it that they will literally ask for it. I don't really care; most of them are probably used to living in the closet for most of their lives and now that they've found a place where they can be open about it they are enjoying the freedom to the fullest extent.
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People have ownership over their own bodies. They can use their body for whatever purpose they wish, so long as it respects that same right of others.
Should prostitution be legal? Of course it should be. Women can have sex in exchange for money, so can men. It is their body, nobody has any right to declare that they can't have sex in exchange for goods or services.
The problem is that the sex industry is plagued by crime and has a great deal of force, be it overt or covert force. This can't be allowed. Weed out the criminals, permit those that engage in the business willingly to keep doing so.
The Amsterdam red-light district used to be a great deal more friendly. These days it is almost entirely women who are simply beaten into becoming prostitutes.
What do we have, if not our own bodies?
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legalised is better than illegal as if its illegal it will result in crime and corruption (which is why it was legalised in much of australia). Also its really a not a matter for government to regulate peoples social behaviour.
Legalisation also reduces the incentive to engage in sex slavery and other activities that would force vunerable individuals to be forced into a dependant position by another party.
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On September 30 2012 08:56 cristo1122 wrote: legalised is better than illegal as if its illegal it will result in crime and corruption (which is why it was legalised in much of australia). Also its really a not a matter for government to regulate peoples social behaviour.
Legalisation also reduces the incentive to engage in sex slavery and other activities that would force vunerable individuals to be forced into a dependant position by another party.
I don't think that legalizing prositution will greatly influence whether the women are enaged in it willingly or by force.
It will make the whole scene more public, but even in Holland you have illegal prostitution (since the legal zone is extremely limited and very expensive).
Like I said before, in Amsterdam the amount of women that are prostitutes are increasingly there against their will, or being taken advantage of (having their pay taken from them).
Why was the red light area better a few decades ago? What changed? Not much. Criminals got smarter and Eastern-Europe opened up.
I agree that the problem in prostitution is the criminal force that runs through it, but removing that corruption isn't done by legalizing it, you need to combine it with intensive police attention.
But try and gather support for helping women that are prostitutes. Not exactly a demographic that stirs up the base, sad to say. Prostitute or whore is still an insult, and women that have these professions are still generally viewed as sub-human.
So, as much as I am in favor of legalizing prostitution, I think it is a mistake to try and portray the situation as better than it is. After legalizing it, there are a lot of things that need to happen before that industry can be considered healthy.
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Legalization with restriction such as zone and so forth would definitely be much more suitable than criminalization any day. Criminalization of anything makes their involvement dangerous for all the participants. Unlike drugs, prostitution is not an endangerment to health (in term of mental and physiological changes). It is a choice by the individual and doing so doesn't turn an individual to become a danger to himself or others. The restriction is to provide haven for children and family groups who does not wish to be located near the vicinity of the "operation".
Many people fall victim by circumstances of their lives and forced into prostitution. The profession that they do put them at odd with society and is shun from everyone else. Prostitution should be a choice of lifestyle not an obligation due social outcome. Legalization will allow openness and in openness you can help those individual to escape the profession who does not wish to participate.
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Is there anybody here with any actual experience with the subject, as in, people in the industry, or people who at the very least really know someone in there? I don't see this topic moving anywhere if all there is to say is "I read this report that said X, and I felt like it made sense so I believe X".
We could answer more questions about career choice then.
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