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On October 19 2012 11:48 Mazer wrote: That's too many nerfs to zerg and buffs to protoss to claim you're objective tbh.
He wants to remove the mothership and the buffs to protoss were pretty minor, if you remove the mothership protoss has no way of winning lategame vs zerg unless zerg is tweaked.
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Too much zerg nerfs >_> hard to take this very serious.
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great points, agree with pretty much everything SaSe wrote
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Imoho it's a good post. I think the point here is that SaSe is trying to convey ideas on how to make the game more dynamic and exciting, rather than just handing out nerfs left and right. Of course things would have to be rebalanced on all sides, but as I'm of the opinion that the game (WoL at least, I dunno bout HotS) is too centered around certain units I'd be all for that.
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Well that was an interesting read. A lot of fire in this thread to boot.
I will agree with Sase's view on the current stagnant state of PvZ. There was a lot of flaming going on about the spawning pool timer. I think its a bad idea for a timer, but I agree that zerg is not punished enough economically when it comes to doing a 6/7 pool.
The mother ship is a design that should not be in the Starcraft world, but as stated in an earlier post, the mother ship core addresses a lot of the early game problems Protoss face. The sentry in hots does not need to upgrade hallucinate. These are all steps in the right direction I think.
Overall, I think the hold position bug or whatever should be addressed in future patches. The brood lord being 6 supply should also be looked at by blizzard, maybe even have it at 5 supply to give it a test run. Its not like unit supply's have never been overlooked, the roach being 1 supply sticks out in my mind in regards to this issue.
Only allow infested terran to be spawned by unburrowed infestors is also a good idea.
I have one more idea of my own. Look at the DT, the obs, the banshee, the ghost, etc. When they are cloaked, you are still able to, for the most part, make out their locations. I know burrow movement shows a slight bit of smoke, but I do not believe it is easy enough to make out. Making burrow movement more visible(maybe have more smoke appear, or have the ground move more) is an idea I've always thought about. Any opinions are welcome.
It's pretty late so good night TL, lets try to keep this topic civil and as productive as possible.
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"The oracle can recall 8-12 units(has to be tweaked I guess) for 100 energy. Would make toss really mobile lategame compared to now and very fun to play instead of trying to get to a deathball. Would also be cool so we might see a minimap full of stuff like we did in good old BW in the progames where stuff was going on everywhere." - Sase
I really like the idea buit its to powerful instead of making an recall of 8-12 units it would be better to make a recall for lets say like 16-20 supply because in the endgame you just can't recall all over the place like 12 carrier but otherwise I was really enjoying to read your stuff sase
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So you took your whining about Zerg from twitter and made a long post here instead? I mean some of your points/ideas sound good, but alot of it is very very biased.
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This is a balance whine; with all the drama I was expecting something a bit more relevent to fundamental game client/learning curve issues
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... I love this post and I love how a pro actually explains why some matchups are simply not working.
However, I wonder why it is okay to complain about balance when you're a pro yet anyone (even top masters and GM's) will easilly get warnings or bans for saying the exact same things
e.g. balance whine or speculations
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I think this post just shows you how some (if not most) progamers are actually incapable of being objective and are extremely biased. The ZvP matchup is completely broken, but you only list the "protoss problems", completely ignoring how *every zerg composition except bl/infestor/queen/spines* gets absolutely demolished by the protoss deathball. So yeah, that makes your post pretty useless.
A lot of other "progamer suggestions" suffer from the same problem, though, so thanks for trying.
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Austria24413 Posts
I think the big issue with PvZ is how every attack protoss attempts the whole game long is almost all in. Early game, you have to rely on sentries so much that you cannot move out unless you all in. If you lose your sentries the game ends right there. Midgame, roaches are faster than your army so you basically have to engage a roach/ling army if the zerg wants you to. If you lose your army, the game ends. Once infestors are out, the danger of being fungaled is enough to keep you at home because if you lose your army, the game ends. And after all that, here's the worst part. You cannot beat BL/infestor unless you get a lucky vortex. So basically, here's the protoss metagame that doesn't involve an all in right now: you sit at home, turtling until lategame to allow zerg to create an army you cannot beat. How does protoss have a high winrate in PvZ then? Well, they don't. There are equal winrates in Korea for PvZ right now but the only reason for that is that Korean protoss have been a million times better at a) two base all ins and b) pre hive timings (all ins) ever since they existed. That's where those wins come from.
PvZ is currently unwinnable against a zerg that doesn't make mistakes. Doesn't matter how good you are.
So, what do we do about it? First of all, remove roach speed or move it to hive. I don't even understand why it's in the game (this early). A protoss army still won't catch up with roaches (except for stalkers) and that's how it should be. Keep the current speed on creep though. Zerg should have an apparent speed advantage on creep. Protoss already pays 125/50 for a stalker compared to the roach's 75/25 for the higher mobility but that currently doesn't exist on and off creep. What would this change? You could move out on the map with stalkers aggressively until infestors are out, put pressure on, pull your opponent out of position and so on. You could outmicro roaches with stalkers (!!!) which make both playing and watching more fun imo. It just opens up the midgame. Zerg would have to be more careful about their movements on the map. If they do a 200/200 roach attack, it would be much more of an all in - as it should be. However, since the speed on creep would be the same as a speed roach on creep now, the roach would still fill the same role defensively. Zergs would just have to better at spreading creep, denying observers, etc. All things that would make the game better imo. Does this affect any 2 base all ins? Not in the slightest. Does it affect lategame? Not at all except that protoss would have a way better chance at dealing some damage early/midgame and thus gain advantages and maybe start the stargate tech earlier, which then might help deal with BL/infestor.
Make the corruptor massive. That way, void rays are finally effective against them and suddenly serve a purpose in the protoss arsenal. As it is right now, corruptors can be massed ridiculously easily and with infestor support, make protoss air effectively useless. Their unit profile says they're "weak against void rays" while really through game mechanics, corruptor speed and the time it takes to mass them, it's the exact opposite. This doesn't affect TvZ or ZvZ in any way unless I missed something. What would change? Void rays could finally be the answer to BL/infestor. Infestors would have to focus more on dealing with void rays to prevent the corruptors and then the brood lords from being attacked. Meanwhile, stalkers become stronger through all the infestor energy void rays drain. This does not affect any 2 base aggression (like +1 4gate void ray pressure, single/double stargate openers). It would make protoss air much more viable and would force zerg into hydras which should have a speed upgrade at lair (as ItWhoSpeaks described in his post on the forums recently).
Just things I've been thinking about.
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On October 19 2012 19:37 imPermanenCe wrote: Too much zerg nerfs >_> hard to take this very serious.
It's suggestions and not a masterplan to change the races (ltr). Not all perfecly thought out maybe, but he got some good points.
I can just judge on the matchup from a viewers perspective, yes i play, but not on a level to be relevant and the balance doesn't really affect people on my level, seriously. I just aggree with his thoughts on the mothership. Basically having to rely on the mothership/Archon toilet mechanic in high level endgame is unbelievably stupid and very boring to watch. Also the Infestor needs some work.
Many people still think Zerg mechanics are hard and Toss is an A-move race, first of all on the lower level. 3 of my friends switched to Zerg (Gold-Diamond players, ye not really relevant) and their general level of play increased drastically. A quick 10 minute tutorial on the Larva mechanic and some timings from a friend was enough. True story.
I'm also really disappointed in HotS SO FAR. I experienced BW coming out and it really made the game playable and changed everything. In comparison HotS is a joke and the new units are nothing less than disappointing.
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Man i think someone has to stop this guy... hes crying rivers all over the place (twitter, reddit forums etc.) .. its getting annoying :/... I mean there are some people tryin to do something about some changes instead of crying like Catz, Destiny, MrBitter did with #saveHOTS ... maybe you should talk with them instead of suggestiong this much bitching to the community
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On October 19 2012 12:06 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 11:58 dcemuser wrote:On October 19 2012 11:45 NeMeSiS3 wrote: Lol. You know what I like? Going onto the SC2 general and seeing "my opinion" from 3 pros and Slayers disbanding... shouldn't all of these be blogs? Do they get random permission to post opinions on the main forum because of there status so it eventually gets spammed?
It's getting really tiring seeing "here's my opinion, I play the game you should care, let me post it where you all see it" These threads: A. Are not all that common - there are maybe 2-3 per month tops B. Usually go in Strategy discussion or Blogs (and this may be moved to Strategy discussion) C. Should get special privileges because of their creator's status. No offense, but it's stupid to think that Random Person A's opinion is as important as SaSe's, even after the race bias. A) didn't quite pan out to well B) like I said, go to blogs C) I'm not doubting the weight, just the amount... Maybe I'm just getting tired of the negativity everyone places on SC2... I mean shit... Anywhere you go, you come on TL and find "this game really blows" in most of the threads (paraphrased of course) then you decided maybe no TL for awhile so you go play SC2 and login, every channel that has people are compalining about SC2 or balance or some other bullshit so I decide to just launch a match and I get in and it's lke "man Hots looks like shit"... There is this erry depression everywhere you go on TL/SC2... Maybe if we all realized 60.00 game has been immensly worthwhile we could start to enjoy it again. I guess I'm just frustrated.
Every time i go to some post i see you starting an argument, you also did this with me in another thread. Are you just here for that?
On another note i can't say i agree with a lot of what you are saying, except for lategame maybe, it can be really hard.
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On October 19 2012 20:15 nam nam wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 20:11 NesquiKGG wrote: Man i think someone has to stop this guy... hes crying rivers all over the place (twitter, reddit forums etc.) .. its getting annoying :/... I mean there are some people tryin to do something about some changes instead of crying like Catz, Destiny, MrBitter did with #saveHOTS ... maybe you should talk with them instead of suggestiong this much bitching to the community You complain about crying and then bring up Destiny? You can't say that with a straight face... Destiny has been pretty relax about balance recently. Sase and Naniwa are having a roll with QQ for months though.
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Why would you spent 2 hours writing all this shit?
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Remove everything! Everything is OP! Sc2 OP!
Hard to take u serious with all this whine
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I was glad to read something about the current state of the game. But reading something about "infestors shouldn't be able to cast infested terrans from underground" made me frown. And there are more silly things mentioned, so I am not blown away at all by this.
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Why no thoughts on Terran?
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