|
In WoL and early HotS I maintained 4 GM accounts with all race options. Any build order advantage from random is pretty negligible in HotS. WoL was a different story as Random vs P was insanely broken.
Aside from having to learn all matchups, when you queue as random your games usually play out differently from the standard meta - making it much harder to get consistent takeaway after games that is helpful in building your skill.
The game is being played at such a level now that a random player will never make a serious splash in WCS or any high tier tournament.
|
On August 20 2015 14:46 Brutaxilos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2015 14:27 JimmyJRaynor wrote: i play as Random because its the most fun. to add to my advantage sometimes i'll lie to my opponent and act "manner" by immediately telling him my race. but, i'm lying to my opponent. the additional advantage is higher when my opponent believes i'm being honest. As a proud Random player, I think you should be ashamed of yourself. This kind of behavior gives all Random players a bad name. Seconded. While difficult to differentiate troll from obliviousness, it still hurts!
|
On August 20 2015 21:57 Kerm wrote: Playing random = 9 matchups to master. Playing one race = 3 matchups to master.
There is your imbalance.
Not even going to the pro level, if random was really imbalanced there would be far more random player in GM, it's not the case (approx. 10%).
So i don't really see your point.
2.3% in GM according to that page above, most in the bottom part of GM and none in the top 100 or so. But I don't think anyone is trying to say that you chances of winning increase by choosing random, only that they don't like playing against it.
|
So let me get this straight, the argument for keeping an in game information imbalance is "who cares" and "we have to learn more match ups" lol
|
On August 20 2015 22:55 Little-Chimp wrote: So let me get this straight, the argument for keeping an in game information imbalance is "who cares" and "we have to learn more match ups" lol Almost. "Who cares" and "the random players seem to enjoy it".
|
Hahah causals and noob players are so funny. Never seen a random player in a tournament^^
|
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On August 20 2015 23:07 Cazimirbzh wrote: Hahah causals and noob players are so funny. Never seen a random player in a tournament^^
Well without casuals and noob players you have even lower viewercounts than now. One of the bests leagues have pathetic views.
What the "pros" have to understand - without player base the game is dead.
|
On August 20 2015 23:07 Cazimirbzh wrote: Hahah causals and noob players are so funny. Never seen a random player in a tournament^^
true, extremely serious players can't make random work. as i see it.. random just does not "scale up". but if you only play a few hours a week or have gaps in your playing time.. random is great fun and should just be enjoyed for that.
but for shits and giggles random is fun... that's why i play random. i just think some people take themselves and the game too seriously. i mean. even more seriously than Blizzard if u look at it the humour Blizzard injects into the game.
|
@deacon.frost You lost me.
@JimmyJRaynor
random is great fun and should just be enjoyed for that. I like you.
|
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On August 20 2015 23:36 Cazimirbzh wrote: @deacon.frost You lost me. That's good, otherwise you could found me ___
Anyway - on a high level random is not a big deal. But I still don't understand why Blizzard is treating everyone as a HC high level gamer instead of accepting that there are casuals and noobs. I am casual and noob. Treat me that way, why on Earth on my MMR I cannot see the race of Random player? I can see that in Silver you can see the starting location of the player(meaning actual starting location where the player spawned, not possible starting location). On my level is Random actually solid advantage, they either go super greedy unpunished(because when I scout them with my in the middle of the road build I don't have the tools to punish them) or they go super cheesy(different cheeses means different responses). Please, in high masters/GM, don't give them these helpers, I am low level noob, give me the tools I need, show me the race :-)
(as I stated before, I actually don't play random players, I think they have too big advantage)
Edit> The example with Silver - it would be nice for new players to have these helping things with Bronze players having most helpers and low masters having the least, obv. It's not happening now.
Edit 2> I am not Silver level and I used to play Random and I rarely play Random nowadays(but I do from time to time).
|
@deacon.frost There you are , that's better ;p
Ladder is focusing on 1v1 with requirements for main competition, wcs (1v1). Blizzard is trying to create a new generation of progamers to play his game. Seems right to me^^ I agree that on lotv random become more "powerful" at low level. But the best way to deal with it is to boost your gameplay not disable a fun option. Stop focusing on the others and on the ladder. To be 123/200 Gm may be consider good but to be the winner of Noob Night Edition N°325 that's a record
|
On August 20 2015 06:00 [PkF] Wire wrote:Gonna copy paste what I wrote in another thread : Show nested quote + Random should display the race of the player on the loading screen. Better for the random player who can prepare his build mentally accordingly, better for the opponent that doesn't suffer the disadvantage of having to scout early. And don't give me some of that "but he has 9 mus to master instead of 3..." this is absolute bullshit.
If you want to random between two races, roll a dice. If odd, play race A, if even play race B.
I agree.
|
SoCal8899 Posts
On August 20 2015 13:30 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2015 13:09 BluemoonSC wrote: why even bother with an option to random if it reveals their race at the start? on 4 player maps, yes scouting is difficult. but learning 9 matchups is also difficult.
you just might have to play a safer build until you can scout. honestly, 1 worker at the start is worth the intel on what race they are and what early indicators of their build they have. Alright let's cut the bullshit. I'm not sure anyone is reading this far into the thread but let's try it. Nobody knows what the metagame will look like a year from now, particularly since the design is still up in the air, so imagine a hypothetical which I think isn't too implausible. Imagine that PvP is at a point where everything is adept versus adept, and if you don't go adept you lose (isn't that more or less where we are now?). Because of this the most popular build is to take gas more or less immediately in order to start on your adepts and warpgate as soon as possible. The later you take gas, the further behind you get. Meanwhile imagine one of the other matchups becomes extremely macro focused. The most popular build by far is nexus first, followed by a gasless 1 gate expand. If you take early gas in this matchup you're at least moderately behind. Even if the Protoss player sends a worker right at the beginning to scout, should they take gas immediately? In one of three cases they're dead without it, while another puts them behind with it. It's not even rock paper scissors, because even if they could mind game their opponent perfectly they'd still have no way to predict their race. It's a pure dice roll. Now maybe nothing like this hypothetical metagame will ever happen, but there's no reason it can't. With random advantage left in the game the imbalance can range from miniscule to game-breaking just depending on the whims of the metagame. Even if you think random players should have an in-game advantage for being willing to play all nine matchups, why choose such a weird and unpredictable one like this? If you just made their units cost slightly less, or shortened their build times by 1%, or let them spawn ten seconds earlier, you could achieve the same effect (giving random players an edge to make up for having to learn so many matchups) without potentially game-breaking situations coming up.
why are you so hostile?
im understanding what you're saying and i believe i'm reading into this thread just as much as you are. i get just as frustrated when i open a specific way because they are randoming and it turns out that the build i wanted to do would have been just fine once i see their race. the best part about lotv is that they've created a way for races to work around the "random advantage"
zerg: so lets say we open pool first vs a terran player that went cc first because he randomed and knows that the zerg has to play it safe lest he be a zerg or protoss player. now, we can drop off some lings into the back of their base and gain back some ground while we expand.
protoss: adepts are pretty good at a lot of things. you can safely open with 2 gate and once you scout, drop a 2nd gas or expand and still pressure.
terran: this is the one race i sorta feel bad for because you're forced to wall off when you may get another terran player. but i don't think that's a huge deal. vs all 3 races you can open 1 gas reaper and scout with an scv until your reaper gets out.
it's tougher than it used to be because the game is a lot quicker but i dont think its impossible.
|
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On August 21 2015 00:09 Cazimirbzh wrote:@deacon.frost There you are , that's better ;p Ladder is focusing on 1v1 with requirements for main competition, wcs (1v1). Blizzard is trying to create a new generation of progamers to play his game. Seems right to me^^ I agree that on lotv random become more "powerful" at low level. But the best way to deal with it is to boost your gameplay not disable a fun option. Stop focusing on the others and on the ladder. To be 123/200 Gm may be consider good but to be the winner of Noob Night Edition N°325 that's a record I don't care that much about ladder, I play unranked and I leave pretty big number of games
Well, the question is if we have more people frustrated by random cheesers or random players. If we have more random players - keep the info hidden. If we have more frustrated players - show the race. This is a problem which doesn't have any good solution, someone will be upset.
And only Blizzard knows numbers.
It would be helpful to start with a setting for Random players to show their race if they want. This won't hurt anyone and will remove some frustration from ladder.
|
Hmmm. At first I thought this topic was total nonsense--and maybe it still is--but now I wonder if there is an argument here.
SC is a game of matchups. There are three races, not four. Random is not a race, it's a setting, a preference. So why should this player-preference affect the matchup? LotV already starts off super quick, and scouting can be an issue with such giant maps, and when versus a random player, several important early-game decisions are made without the most basic knowledge possible, i.e., what is the matchup?
This could go one of two ways, if it's going to change at all (which it won't).
(1) The random player cannot see the race of his opponent either, in the load screen, or the in-game info screen.
(2) The random player's race is revealed as soon as it is determined by the game engine.
I like both options, lol. Either both players are in the dark, or both are in-the-know. It's silly that there is a game preference that can affect your opponent in a way they actually have no recourse over.
|
@deacon.frost I dont think there is real numbers about that^^ unless blizzard has chip on a lot of brains :p
If you show race, it's like removing random^^ As it's a pure lowleague issue, i tend to think that it'll disappear with the tournament mode.
remove some frustration from ladder. propably not^^
|
On August 20 2015 18:02 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2015 16:15 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On August 20 2015 05:17 Clonester wrote: The random player has to be able to play all races. The race-picker not. Thus the random player has to learn 9 matchups against 3. It is literaly the reason to pick random in tournaments to have this starting advantage. Most random players want to learn all races best possible and thus announce what race they have, but dedicated random players who will attend in the automated tournaments will not. They not only pick random to play 3 races but also to win. If you want to be shure, use one of the starting workers to scout. bullshit. The random player "has" to learn 9 different all-ins and execute them. he doesnt need to do jack besides that. in LotV a workerscout sometimes aint enough. a Random player will never play the real matchups either since hes forcing his opponent into suboptimal safer builds. On August 20 2015 16:13 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On August 20 2015 14:46 Brutaxilos wrote:On August 20 2015 14:27 JimmyJRaynor wrote: i play as Random because its the most fun. to add to my advantage sometimes i'll lie to my opponent and act "manner" by immediately telling him my race. but, i'm lying to my opponent. the additional advantage is higher when my opponent believes i'm being honest. As a proud Random player, I think you should be ashamed of yourself. This kind of behavior gives all Random players a bad name. if i can get my opponent thinking about the "morality" of my actions... i'm already diverting his mind from the task at hand and winning that aspect of the game. deception is part of many games. someone once said "all war is deception". am i driving while drunk or making questionable tax deductions or even violating the games terms of service? nah, i'm playing a game for fun. deception is part of the game. sorry but youre just being a shitlord. Is winning really that important to you? as you said, youre just playing a game for fun. and sometimes deception is part of the fun ... as it is in many games and sports. ..for the record i do not lie every game about my race.. winning is not important... fun is... there is nuttin' like 12 pooling a protoss on a 4 player map when u told him u were terran
Still sounds like shitlordery to me, have fun doing your tampered coinflip for as long as you can.
Lets go with the latest circlejerk argument: Playing a random is not fun, you dont get decent practice in the real matchups due to opening with suboptimal builds. For pros, playing a random player is a waste of time because they can never use that experience in a tournament.
On top of that teres a higher bullshit-factor. They usually suck ass at macro and mechanics and most of them simply all-in.
do you know how easy it is to early pool/ proxy rax/ proxy gate/ in every matchup? Can we please stop with the "but they have to learn 9 matchups" argument already? It holds no meaning when most of them all-in and the game is basically over after the coinflip has been settled due to inferior mechanics/macro.
|
On August 21 2015 01:31 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2015 18:02 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On August 20 2015 16:15 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On August 20 2015 05:17 Clonester wrote: The random player has to be able to play all races. The race-picker not. Thus the random player has to learn 9 matchups against 3. It is literaly the reason to pick random in tournaments to have this starting advantage. Most random players want to learn all races best possible and thus announce what race they have, but dedicated random players who will attend in the automated tournaments will not. They not only pick random to play 3 races but also to win. If you want to be shure, use one of the starting workers to scout. bullshit. The random player "has" to learn 9 different all-ins and execute them. he doesnt need to do jack besides that. in LotV a workerscout sometimes aint enough. a Random player will never play the real matchups either since hes forcing his opponent into suboptimal safer builds. On August 20 2015 16:13 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On August 20 2015 14:46 Brutaxilos wrote:On August 20 2015 14:27 JimmyJRaynor wrote: i play as Random because its the most fun. to add to my advantage sometimes i'll lie to my opponent and act "manner" by immediately telling him my race. but, i'm lying to my opponent. the additional advantage is higher when my opponent believes i'm being honest. As a proud Random player, I think you should be ashamed of yourself. This kind of behavior gives all Random players a bad name. if i can get my opponent thinking about the "morality" of my actions... i'm already diverting his mind from the task at hand and winning that aspect of the game. deception is part of many games. someone once said "all war is deception". am i driving while drunk or making questionable tax deductions or even violating the games terms of service? nah, i'm playing a game for fun. deception is part of the game. sorry but youre just being a shitlord. Is winning really that important to you? as you said, youre just playing a game for fun. and sometimes deception is part of the fun ... as it is in many games and sports. ..for the record i do not lie every game about my race.. winning is not important... fun is... there is nuttin' like 12 pooling a protoss on a 4 player map when u told him u were terran Still sounds like shitlordery to me, have fun doing your tampered coinflip for as long as you can. Lets go with the latest circlejerk argument: Playing a random is not fun, you dont get decent practice in the real matchups due to opening with suboptimal builds. For pros, playing a random player is a waste of time because they can never use that experience in a tournament. On top of that teres a higher bullshit-factor. They usually suck ass at macro and mechanics and most of them simply all-in. do you know how easy it is to early pool/ proxy rax/ proxy gate/ in every matchup? Can we please stop with the "but they have to learn 9 matchups" argument already? It holds no meaning when most of them all-in and the game is basically over after the coinflip has been settled due to inferior mechanics/macro.
Well now we know how you feel about it, thanks for sharing.
I do not cheese when I play Random, like I said earlier in the thread. I actually really enjoy using Random because I don't have to deal with blind metagame cheeses every fucking game especially vs Protoss because they have to scout me first so they don't get to tailor their build beforehand.
I play macro games 90% of the time. For me, playing Random increases the chances that the game will actually be a macro game rather than the other way around.
But go ahead and tell me how all I want to do as Random is coin flip and win with inferior mechanics and macro, I'd be delighted to know more about how I play from you.
|
On August 21 2015 02:07 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 01:31 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On August 20 2015 18:02 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On August 20 2015 16:15 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On August 20 2015 05:17 Clonester wrote: The random player has to be able to play all races. The race-picker not. Thus the random player has to learn 9 matchups against 3. It is literaly the reason to pick random in tournaments to have this starting advantage. Most random players want to learn all races best possible and thus announce what race they have, but dedicated random players who will attend in the automated tournaments will not. They not only pick random to play 3 races but also to win. If you want to be shure, use one of the starting workers to scout. bullshit. The random player "has" to learn 9 different all-ins and execute them. he doesnt need to do jack besides that. in LotV a workerscout sometimes aint enough. a Random player will never play the real matchups either since hes forcing his opponent into suboptimal safer builds. On August 20 2015 16:13 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On August 20 2015 14:46 Brutaxilos wrote:On August 20 2015 14:27 JimmyJRaynor wrote: i play as Random because its the most fun. to add to my advantage sometimes i'll lie to my opponent and act "manner" by immediately telling him my race. but, i'm lying to my opponent. the additional advantage is higher when my opponent believes i'm being honest. As a proud Random player, I think you should be ashamed of yourself. This kind of behavior gives all Random players a bad name. if i can get my opponent thinking about the "morality" of my actions... i'm already diverting his mind from the task at hand and winning that aspect of the game. deception is part of many games. someone once said "all war is deception". am i driving while drunk or making questionable tax deductions or even violating the games terms of service? nah, i'm playing a game for fun. deception is part of the game. sorry but youre just being a shitlord. Is winning really that important to you? as you said, youre just playing a game for fun. and sometimes deception is part of the fun ... as it is in many games and sports. ..for the record i do not lie every game about my race.. winning is not important... fun is... there is nuttin' like 12 pooling a protoss on a 4 player map when u told him u were terran Still sounds like shitlordery to me, have fun doing your tampered coinflip for as long as you can. Lets go with the latest circlejerk argument: Playing a random is not fun, you dont get decent practice in the real matchups due to opening with suboptimal builds. For pros, playing a random player is a waste of time because they can never use that experience in a tournament. On top of that teres a higher bullshit-factor. They usually suck ass at macro and mechanics and most of them simply all-in. do you know how easy it is to early pool/ proxy rax/ proxy gate/ in every matchup? Can we please stop with the "but they have to learn 9 matchups" argument already? It holds no meaning when most of them all-in and the game is basically over after the coinflip has been settled due to inferior mechanics/macro. Well now we know how you feel about it, thanks for sharing. I do not cheese when I play Random, like I said earlier in the thread. I actually really enjoy using Random because I don't have to deal with blind metagame cheeses every fucking game especially vs Protoss because they have to scout me first so they don't get to tailor their build beforehand. I play macro games 90% of the time. For me, playing Random increases the chances that the game will actually be a macro game rather than the other way around. But go ahead and tell me how all I want to do as Random is coin flip and win with inferior mechanics and macro, I'd be delighted to know more about how I play from you. You're back again, with more misrepresenting what other people say!
He didn't say "Vindicare always cheeses," he said "most random players on ladder just cheese." If someone says "Random players tend to cheese, which takes little skill and it only works because due to random advantage, it ultimately comes down to a coin flip as I decide which cheeses from the three races I'm going to respond to and which I just have to accept as losses," it is not a cogent response to say "well I play random, and I don't cheese. What's the problem?"
|
TeamLiquid should show your rank so we know how serious to take the responses in here. no disrespect, but the impact of "random advantage" is relative to skill and straight knowledge of the game. it's simply not going to matter at all in the lower levels.
show some replays where you've lost simply because you didn't know your opponents race. As a random player the ONLY times I get a free win is when I spawn as terran and my opponent cheeses me blindly. ex: a zerg 6 pools me, or a protoss proxy 2 gates me... that was their decision.. i didn't win because random is OP.. I won because they chose a to flip a coin.
|
|
|
|