I think you're right about the rule change though. At some point it did seem to change as race-picking died in the major Korean leagues.
As far as I'm aware though it was never banned in major foreigner tournaments like WCG or TSL.
Forum Index > Closed |
RowdierBob
Australia12660 Posts
I think you're right about the rule change though. At some point it did seem to change as race-picking died in the major Korean leagues. As far as I'm aware though it was never banned in major foreigner tournaments like WCG or TSL. | ||
Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On August 18 2017 08:40 rauk wrote: You made that statistic up in order to satisfy your argument, there are many people who hate tvp or any given matchup. Many people like mirrors.Show nested quote + On August 18 2017 08:21 .gypsy wrote: Looks like I'm committed on this one boys. In terms of matchmaking, Espers, I argue that race picking does not have a place. Why? Here are a couple of things to consider: How do we define race picking? Should we define race picking only from the perspective of avoiding mirror matchups? That is to say, that you must be , e.g., a zerg player, and you can only race pick versus other zerg players. Presumably this is most people's stance, but why should we privilege this type of race picker that involves players that play, for example, TvZ PvT ZvP, or like ZvT ZvZ TvP. It seems unclear as to why we should favor one over the other. -> 1) in the case that we do discriminate, like I said, it seems quite arbitrary. What if there were a group of race pickers arguing for the exact same thing most of the people in this thread are arguing for, e.g. race picking, but just a different kind of race picking, i.e. one that allows for mirror matchups, (e..g ZvT ZvZ TvP case), or one that allows for 'non race-consistent' picking (e.g. TvZ PvT ZvP) -> 2) in the case that we do not discriminate, i.e. allow all kinds of racepicking. How do you implement this? See, for example, my suggestions in my earlier post, but also consider what this would do to queue times, etc. Think about how the UI would look like, how the algorithm would look like, whatever. Think about all these complications from a design standpoint: seems like anything but simple. Do I think it's possible? Yes it certainly is possible to integrate race picking into matchmaking, and it could be cool to live in a world where I could queue up for whatever matchup I wanted to, even something like ZvT PvT TvT (i.e. only play against one race). Ideally it could be cool, and it could be done, practically it seems very unappealing. Anyway there's a reason I never write constructive posts on forums. I think I've quite eloquently/concisely presented the problem of race picking both in terms of its competitive dimension but also in terms of the whole automated matchmaking / game design perspective, yet I'm met with responses 1 sentence passive-aggressive responses from people whom clearly not only have not clearly read my posts, but have also clearly not given an ounce of thought to the whole race-picking issue. Find friends to play with and play whatever matchups you want. Race picking will NEVER be integrated into matchmaking. ------ I'm sure implementing a matchmaking with the ability to queue for non-mirror matchups and implementing a coin-flip system would be pretty simple to appoint races in cases of race picking conflict. I guess I'm an idiot lol! Obviously no one's going to get the point I'm trying to make with respect to the issues of defining race picking as something you do in order to avoid mirrors. -> I can easily imagine a world where some protoss players hate playing PvZ and instead TvZ, so they all play PvT, PvP, TvZ. Race-picking in this case does not involve dodging mirrors. Personally I don't see why we should discriminate between these different variants of race pickers. Which is why, to me, implementing a race picking system to avoid mirror matchups seems very stupid. Great stuff guys haha you got me. as far as i know the second scenario basically doesn't even exist. 99% of racepickers do it to avoid mirrors. doesn't seem arbitrary to me at all On August 18 2017 09:45 RowdierBob wrote: Why are we even talking about korean leagues? Its a league, it has no similarity to a ladder least of all one with automated match making. It simply doesnt matter.I think the Korean league did change the race picking rules at some point. It was very common for a while, particularly with dumb maps like Paradoxx. I'm pretty sure Joyo for example played PvT, TvP, TvZ. Chojja would play Terran on Paradoxx. I think you're right about the rule change though. At some point it did seem to change as race-picking died in the major Korean leagues. As far as I'm aware though it was never banned in major foreigner tournaments like WCG or TSL. | ||
RowdierBob
Australia12660 Posts
| ||
Dante08
Singapore4101 Posts
| ||
Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On August 18 2017 10:39 RowdierBob wrote: Yes, it wont be available on a ladder, which has particular conditions and stresses relative to what that ladder is and how it functions, which is clearly separatable from a professional league and its conditions. Not related. If blizzard were banning people for 'race picking' in private lobbies with weeks of foreknowledge in who were going to play who, youd have a point.I think it does. There is a strong culture of race picking in the BW community that dates back to the very early days. It's an important part of the game for many people that now won't be available in the new ladder. | ||
Avi-Love
Denmark423 Posts
| ||
RowdierBob
Australia12660 Posts
On August 18 2017 10:52 Dazed. wrote: Show nested quote + Yes, it wont be available on a ladder, which has particular conditions and stresses relative to what that ladder is and how it functions, which is clearly separatable from a professional league and its conditions. Not related. If blizzard were banning people for 'race picking' in private lobbies with weeks of foreknowledge in who were going to play who, youd have a point.On August 18 2017 10:39 RowdierBob wrote: I think it does. There is a strong culture of race picking in the BW community that dates back to the very early days. It's an important part of the game for many people that now won't be available in the new ladder. The issue is that, as Avi-Love says, race picking has always been part of competitive BW. Blizzard is positioning the ladder as one of the key competitive elements of the new game, which will be a significant change for many competitive players. I accept there are technical barriers that probably won't make it possible but Blizzard should explore the possibilities of allowing it. Race picking is a key part of how the game is played at all levels and shouldn't be so easily dismissed. | ||
Garrl
Scotland1957 Posts
On August 18 2017 09:24 RowdierBob wrote: Show nested quote + On August 18 2017 09:03 Garrl wrote: most tournament rules disallow racepicking, I'm fine with it tbh. Is this true though? I haven't played in any official tournaments in a very long time but race picking was always allowed. It was very common in the early OSL days for example where some MUs were considered much harder than others (and island maps were played in big tournaments). well, OSL/MSL etc banned it later on, when Ret went to Korea he had to stop racepicking TvZ because it wasn't allowed in the rules, at least for courage. | ||
rauk
United States2228 Posts
On August 18 2017 10:37 Dazed. wrote: Show nested quote + You made that statistic up in order to satisfy your argument, there are many people who hate tvp or any given matchup. Many people like mirrors.On August 18 2017 08:40 rauk wrote: On August 18 2017 08:21 .gypsy wrote: Looks like I'm committed on this one boys. In terms of matchmaking, Espers, I argue that race picking does not have a place. Why? Here are a couple of things to consider: How do we define race picking? Should we define race picking only from the perspective of avoiding mirror matchups? That is to say, that you must be , e.g., a zerg player, and you can only race pick versus other zerg players. Presumably this is most people's stance, but why should we privilege this type of race picker that involves players that play, for example, TvZ PvT ZvP, or like ZvT ZvZ TvP. It seems unclear as to why we should favor one over the other. -> 1) in the case that we do discriminate, like I said, it seems quite arbitrary. What if there were a group of race pickers arguing for the exact same thing most of the people in this thread are arguing for, e.g. race picking, but just a different kind of race picking, i.e. one that allows for mirror matchups, (e..g ZvT ZvZ TvP case), or one that allows for 'non race-consistent' picking (e.g. TvZ PvT ZvP) -> 2) in the case that we do not discriminate, i.e. allow all kinds of racepicking. How do you implement this? See, for example, my suggestions in my earlier post, but also consider what this would do to queue times, etc. Think about how the UI would look like, how the algorithm would look like, whatever. Think about all these complications from a design standpoint: seems like anything but simple. Do I think it's possible? Yes it certainly is possible to integrate race picking into matchmaking, and it could be cool to live in a world where I could queue up for whatever matchup I wanted to, even something like ZvT PvT TvT (i.e. only play against one race). Ideally it could be cool, and it could be done, practically it seems very unappealing. Anyway there's a reason I never write constructive posts on forums. I think I've quite eloquently/concisely presented the problem of race picking both in terms of its competitive dimension but also in terms of the whole automated matchmaking / game design perspective, yet I'm met with responses 1 sentence passive-aggressive responses from people whom clearly not only have not clearly read my posts, but have also clearly not given an ounce of thought to the whole race-picking issue. Find friends to play with and play whatever matchups you want. Race picking will NEVER be integrated into matchmaking. ------ I'm sure implementing a matchmaking with the ability to queue for non-mirror matchups and implementing a coin-flip system would be pretty simple to appoint races in cases of race picking conflict. I guess I'm an idiot lol! Obviously no one's going to get the point I'm trying to make with respect to the issues of defining race picking as something you do in order to avoid mirrors. -> I can easily imagine a world where some protoss players hate playing PvZ and instead TvZ, so they all play PvT, PvP, TvZ. Race-picking in this case does not involve dodging mirrors. Personally I don't see why we should discriminate between these different variants of race pickers. Which is why, to me, implementing a race picking system to avoid mirror matchups seems very stupid. Great stuff guys haha you got me. as far as i know the second scenario basically doesn't even exist. 99% of racepickers do it to avoid mirrors. doesn't seem arbitrary to me at all Show nested quote + Why are we even talking about korean leagues? Its a league, it has no similarity to a ladder least of all one with automated match making. It simply doesnt matter.On August 18 2017 09:45 RowdierBob wrote: I think the Korean league did change the race picking rules at some point. It was very common for a while, particularly with dumb maps like Paradoxx. I'm pretty sure Joyo for example played PvT, TvP, TvZ. Chojja would play Terran on Paradoxx. I think you're right about the rule change though. At some point it did seem to change as race-picking died in the major Korean leagues. As far as I'm aware though it was never banned in major foreigner tournaments like WCG or TSL. can you show me any pro foreign or korean who racepicked anything other than mirror? maybe testie and some random pros in 1999? | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On August 18 2017 12:57 rauk wrote: Show nested quote + On August 18 2017 10:37 Dazed. wrote: On August 18 2017 08:40 rauk wrote: You made that statistic up in order to satisfy your argument, there are many people who hate tvp or any given matchup. Many people like mirrors.On August 18 2017 08:21 .gypsy wrote: Looks like I'm committed on this one boys. In terms of matchmaking, Espers, I argue that race picking does not have a place. Why? Here are a couple of things to consider: How do we define race picking? Should we define race picking only from the perspective of avoiding mirror matchups? That is to say, that you must be , e.g., a zerg player, and you can only race pick versus other zerg players. Presumably this is most people's stance, but why should we privilege this type of race picker that involves players that play, for example, TvZ PvT ZvP, or like ZvT ZvZ TvP. It seems unclear as to why we should favor one over the other. -> 1) in the case that we do discriminate, like I said, it seems quite arbitrary. What if there were a group of race pickers arguing for the exact same thing most of the people in this thread are arguing for, e.g. race picking, but just a different kind of race picking, i.e. one that allows for mirror matchups, (e..g ZvT ZvZ TvP case), or one that allows for 'non race-consistent' picking (e.g. TvZ PvT ZvP) -> 2) in the case that we do not discriminate, i.e. allow all kinds of racepicking. How do you implement this? See, for example, my suggestions in my earlier post, but also consider what this would do to queue times, etc. Think about how the UI would look like, how the algorithm would look like, whatever. Think about all these complications from a design standpoint: seems like anything but simple. Do I think it's possible? Yes it certainly is possible to integrate race picking into matchmaking, and it could be cool to live in a world where I could queue up for whatever matchup I wanted to, even something like ZvT PvT TvT (i.e. only play against one race). Ideally it could be cool, and it could be done, practically it seems very unappealing. Anyway there's a reason I never write constructive posts on forums. I think I've quite eloquently/concisely presented the problem of race picking both in terms of its competitive dimension but also in terms of the whole automated matchmaking / game design perspective, yet I'm met with responses 1 sentence passive-aggressive responses from people whom clearly not only have not clearly read my posts, but have also clearly not given an ounce of thought to the whole race-picking issue. Find friends to play with and play whatever matchups you want. Race picking will NEVER be integrated into matchmaking. ------ I'm sure implementing a matchmaking with the ability to queue for non-mirror matchups and implementing a coin-flip system would be pretty simple to appoint races in cases of race picking conflict. I guess I'm an idiot lol! Obviously no one's going to get the point I'm trying to make with respect to the issues of defining race picking as something you do in order to avoid mirrors. -> I can easily imagine a world where some protoss players hate playing PvZ and instead TvZ, so they all play PvT, PvP, TvZ. Race-picking in this case does not involve dodging mirrors. Personally I don't see why we should discriminate between these different variants of race pickers. Which is why, to me, implementing a race picking system to avoid mirror matchups seems very stupid. Great stuff guys haha you got me. as far as i know the second scenario basically doesn't even exist. 99% of racepickers do it to avoid mirrors. doesn't seem arbitrary to me at all On August 18 2017 09:45 RowdierBob wrote: Why are we even talking about korean leagues? Its a league, it has no similarity to a ladder least of all one with automated match making. It simply doesnt matter.I think the Korean league did change the race picking rules at some point. It was very common for a while, particularly with dumb maps like Paradoxx. I'm pretty sure Joyo for example played PvT, TvP, TvZ. Chojja would play Terran on Paradoxx. I think you're right about the rule change though. At some point it did seem to change as race-picking died in the major Korean leagues. As far as I'm aware though it was never banned in major foreigner tournaments like WCG or TSL. can you show me any pro foreign or korean who racepicked anything other than mirror? maybe testie and some random pros in 1999? Very easy - PJ until he went to SKT and switched to P only... can't quite recall if he played PvT PvP TvZ or PvT ZvP TvZ? Protoss players picking TvZ or ZvP were not that rare at all... I think Trek also did something like that. That being said, it should definitely be allowed. There is no reasonable argument for why it would be difficult to have a PvZ PvT PvR TvP ... matchup selection option, and anytime you run into matchup conflict you default both to their vs random race. There's nothing preventing you from picking TvZ over ZvZ in most tournaments, so why it's somehow less 'pure' is beyond me. | ||
GTR
51142 Posts
Also KeSPA had a rule where if you wanted to change race for a match you had to give a weeks notice (Savior vs Gorush in 2007) - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/53356-savior-will-use-terran-on-26ths-msl-game | ||
heyitsMiro
83 Posts
On August 18 2017 11:09 Garrl wrote: Show nested quote + On August 18 2017 09:24 RowdierBob wrote: On August 18 2017 09:03 Garrl wrote: most tournament rules disallow racepicking, I'm fine with it tbh. Is this true though? I haven't played in any official tournaments in a very long time but race picking was always allowed. It was very common in the early OSL days for example where some MUs were considered much harder than others (and island maps were played in big tournaments). well, OSL/MSL etc banned it later on, when Ret went to Korea he had to stop racepicking TvZ because it wasn't allowed in the rules, at least for courage. Team coaches banned it. You could still race pick but had to give notice of one week prior to your games. | ||
SlammerIV
United States526 Posts
| ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On August 18 2017 14:32 SlammerIV wrote: Honestly I love that ladder forces you to play all matchups. I would always get kicked from lobbies if I tried to play zvz. But now you would get to play zvz against every pure zerg user and never get kicked while the people who play TvZ instead of ZvZ you'd never even know they did, would just show up as terran users for you. There's like no downside -.- | ||
Dante08
Singapore4101 Posts
| ||
SkelA
Macedonia13017 Posts
| ||
Frauenarzt
Germany22 Posts
but i think if u want some kind of advantage u could pick pvt zvp tvz and set map votings to get a lot of nostalgia games | ||
elKa-ThE-FeArEd
Sweden174 Posts
On August 18 2017 01:07 Avi-Love wrote: I think the best solution would be to have a chosen main race, and then have the option to choose a different race for the mirror. That way, if you are matched against a random, your "main race" is picked, and there won't be any conflict (although this way you can technically still get a mirror when you play against random, it is still infinitely better than the system currently in place). The lack of MU picking and the removal of the 2 minute leave rule are to me personally the biggest issues currently in sc:r. (Currently, if you get matched against someone with severe lag, you are forced to play them, which is a complete pain in the ass). Wait they removed the 2min rule?? I agree totally with switching race, nothings more boring than mirror mu's. If they won't add any option to switch race i will just stick to random i guess | ||
Drake
Germany6146 Posts
On August 18 2017 00:35 Espers wrote: Some people are already talking about this, but race-picking has always been a part of BW and with the new ladder it's not a thing anymore. Historically mirrors have always been the least liked/played matchups. What do you think of implementing an option to choose another mu rather than the mirror? I personally would enjoy ladder so much more if I could just play TvZ rather than ZvZ. no because maybe the enemy is rly good at zvz but hates zvt so he want to play pvt and so on ,... Also my pvp is fantastic if people would leave without lose first minute i would rly get pissed | ||
Qikz
United Kingdom12011 Posts
On August 18 2017 10:40 Dante08 wrote: Glad to know I'm not the only one avoiding TvT. Been avoiding TvT all my years of playing BW and out of 10 ladder games I get 7 TvTs. Guess I just have to learn it now. Why have you been avoiding it? It's easily the most strategic and interesting matchup :/ | ||
| ||
[ Submit Event ] |
StarCraft 2 StarCraft: Brood War Dota 2 Counter-Strike Super Smash Bros Other Games summit1g9703 Grubby2378 Liquid`RaSZi2270 Day[9].tv1505 shahzam890 C9.Mang0268 Maynarde143 NuckleDu57 ViBE30 Mew2King28 Organizations Other Games StarCraft 2 Other Games StarCraft 2 StarCraft: Brood War |
Kung Fu Cup
H.4.0.S
OSC
GSL Code S
herO vs Reynor
soO vs GuMiho
OSC
World Team League
Korean StarCraft League
Replay Cast
World Team League
Chat StarLeague
[ Show More ] H.4.0.S
BSL
CSO Cup
Chat StarLeague
Sparkling Tuna Cup
World Team League
BSL
ForJumy Cup
|
|