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On April 01 2010 07:02 OHtRUe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2010 06:54 theqat wrote: Yeah you can't have your cake and eat it too with the definition of micro. Either kiting is micro or it isn't. Not-micro is literally a-moving and not issuing any more orders. Kiting is micro. If you want to say that the micro is too easy then sure, fine, but it's micro. OK. SO for maruaders you have to kite against Zealots..... HUGE MICRO What is the difference between kiting a marauder, or kiting a hydra, or kiting a goon, or kiting a roach? I don't see why this is being complained about. Why aren't you bitching about goon micro being too simple?
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I'm just going to assume your a protoss player..
The new stalker really isn't bad. Not even worth making many zealots vs t unless you have charge or are going for some kind of really fast pressure.
I do agree to some extent. I'm not really a big fan of roaches or marauders to be honest, I agree they are a bit too strong when A-moved OR using simple shoot-move micro. I wouldn't have a problem with them if they didn't shred my buildings.
Edit: My bad, same range. Was reading out-dated unit info.
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Solution:
Make marauders mechanical. Remove dropship heal. Put medics back in game.
Get rid of initial roach +2 armor. Give them speed to begin with -- make +2 armor a hive upgrade.
Wooh, I just made every matchup with zerg more fun.
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On April 01 2010 07:11 keV. wrote: I'm just going to assume your a protoss player..
The new stalker really isn't bad. I suggest using it, they out range marauders by quite a bit.
No, don't say thinks that aren't true please. They have identical ranges.
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On April 01 2010 07:11 Darpinion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2010 07:02 OHtRUe wrote:On April 01 2010 06:54 theqat wrote: Yeah you can't have your cake and eat it too with the definition of micro. Either kiting is micro or it isn't. Not-micro is literally a-moving and not issuing any more orders. Kiting is micro. If you want to say that the micro is too easy then sure, fine, but it's micro. OK. SO for maruaders you have to kite against Zealots..... HUGE MICRO What is the difference between kiting a marauder, or kiting a hydra, or kiting a goon, or kiting a roach? I don't see why this is being complained about. Why aren't you bitching about goon micro being too simple? because you dont have to micro marauders.... And when you do the simplest micro in the world you can counter every melee unit.
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On April 01 2010 07:10 OHtRUe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2010 07:04 Archerofaiur wrote: Thank god Teamliquids ProMod is coming out this month. It will definatly purge these stupid WC3 units. I dont get why people think this is a good thread to troll, since these units are actually the core problems with the game??? Seriously queen larvae, marauders, roaches, the game just screams A move
We arnt trolling.
We are just amused that after all this time there are still people who think the best way to make a point on TL is to compare something to [scary voice]Warcraft 3[/scary voice]
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As lots of people have already said, you can kite with them. Roaches have burrow and marauders have stim... I really dont see how this is any less micro intensive than marines, zealots, stalkers, immortals, ling which you seem to be fine with. In most RTS games your core army which makes up the masses arent very worth microing, largely because you have so many of them and they are simple units. If you start to give them too many mechanics it would become ridiculous, we don't need t 1.5 units having spells.
I feel many people are jumping and saying "they require no micro' because they do not micro the same as SC1 units. The pathing is not dreadful so positioning is much easier is a big thing, is this really a bad thing though? Also just because we dont have such dramatic micro techniques (discovered so far anyways) such as vulture micro where they are pretty well moving and shooting. You can still shoot and move, but with subtler effects.
If you feel these units might need balancing, why not try to offer some constructive suggestions. But what micro mechanics beyond simple skills, positioning and kiting can really be expected for t1.5 units?
On another note,
Roaches are just a wc3 unit really....
WC3 is generally more micro based game than SC in general, while SC has more of a focus on macro... I don't understand your point at all.
Roaches have been nerfed considerably, they are a bit tougher and have higher damage vs light units than marauder/stalker but they also are very slow and have considerably less range.
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It seems like putting units like these that are really powerful in t1 is blizzards way of achieving a shallow balance as opposed to having several different options early game. Of course, it would require much more effort and creativity to have balanced and diverse early game than just roaches, marauders etc.
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On April 01 2010 07:13 agorist wrote: Solution:
Make marauders mechanical. Remove dropship heal. Put medics back in game.
Get rid of initial roach +2 armor. Give them speed to begin with -- make +2 armor a hive upgrade.
Wooh, I just made every matchup with zerg more fun.
I like the -2 armor +speed but +2 armor makes them too similar to ranged ultralisk :<
Poor blizzard, if they didn't have to deal with flavor they'd... well they would of made supreme commander.
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roaches? Serious? You must be a protoss player, and a bad one at that. Roaches have been nerfed into the ground.. their tier 3 upgrade is almost useless now, and thats the only way roaches were even good. The only thing roaches counter now are zealots and lings. everything else owns them.
Marauders are the most imbalanced unit in the game tho by far, its like a BW tank that is cheap, moves fast and has slow.
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because you dont have to micro marauders.... And when you do the simplest micro in the world you can counter every melee unit.
Speedling absolutely destroy marauders per cost especially considering how easy it is to surround them so they cant even shoot + move. Also.. if you use charge lots vs marauders they are very strong assuming you micro your lots to surround him, you can also use forcefield to help surround and probably need some stalker/immortal support. Also.. ultra ling in decent numbers with speed upgrades destroy marauder. Assuming you don't a-move your melee from 1 direction in an open field or choke, I really don't see your point.
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Marauders get stomped by speedlings and charglots sooo , no you are wrong. Roaches actually have some interesting burrow micro capabilities as well.
As a whole i like where these 2 units are in terms of balance at the moment (as a random player) and think they fill important spots in the tech trees.
I mean zerg would just get STOMPED early game without roaches in ZvP and marauders serve as important meatshield for marines.
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On April 01 2010 07:24 FleuR wrote:Show nested quote +because you dont have to micro marauders.... And when you do the simplest micro in the world you can counter every melee unit. Speedling absolutely destroy marauders per cost especially considering how easy it is to surround them so they cant even shoot + move. Also.. if you use charge lots vs marauders they are very strong assuming you micro your lots to surround him, you can also use forcefield to help surround and probably need some stalker/immortal support. Also.. ultra ling in decent numbers with speed upgrades destroy marauder. Assuming you don't a-move your melee from 1 direction in an open field or choke, I really don't see your point. Its the amount of POWER they have as a unit. They dont have to do any super special micro, are a tier 1 UNIT, are cheap, and have overpowered stats.......
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I don't like the Roach OR Marauder either. I hate them in fact.
That doesn't mean I have a valid reason, I just hate the feel they give. Perhaps that'll change as the game evolves and I get more used to everything.
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On April 01 2010 07:26 Tinithor wrote: Marauders get stomped by speedlings and charglots sooo , no you are wrong. Roaches actually have some interesting burrow micro capabilities as well.
As a whole i like where these 2 units are in terms of balance at the moment (as a random player) and think they fill important spots in the tech trees.
I mean zerg would just get STOMPED early game without roaches in ZvP and marauders serve as important meatshield for marines. Yep so protoss should have to get a tier 2 upgrade with a ridicolous long research time and only get a half counter to marauders.... Seems fair...... Also thats why they have to remake units... IT IS BETA BY THE WAY....
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I don't understand why the OP needs to talk in caps to make points.
Speedlings > marauders.
Immortals/zealotswithcharge/ > marauders
any air unit > marauders
Stalkers do decent against marauders because they move faster when not slowed and do bonus to armored units.
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yeah, I really hate Roaches and Marauders as well (I'm Protoss-Player btw.) but Roaches are much more annoying to deal with as Protoss, because:
- Against T, you can use Immortals+Stalkers, which deal with M&M's, but it's also a very safe build to deal with cheese like Hellion-Drops, Banshees, SCV+Rine-Pushes and no Techswitch from the Terran can really catch you offguard. - Against Z, it's a whole other story. First thing to notice is, that Z is almost always FE'ing and therefore you should pressure the Z early and 2gate-stalkers into robo isn't the way to go here. So you need Zealots to do early aggression (on Maps you can't FE as Protoss, even with recent Canon-Buff) and generally against Lings. Then you need Sentry's mixed in with the Zealots to control Roaches and Speedlings. But Roaches are still too strong, so you need Immortals and Stalkers. If you mix in those 2 Units, Z just switches to more Zerglings and rapes u and when you finally have enough Zealots to deal with the Speedlings, Z can have tons of Mutas. It's just sooo hard to win against Z who is constantly techswitching if you haven't won or severly Damaged Z with the first timing-Attack with Zealots+Sentrys (blocking ramp and kicking exe...). I blame the hard-counter-system. -.-°
Anyways: Roaches and Marauders need nerfing, that's basically it. ^^'
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I guess I'll unload frustration in this thread since I was thinking the same thing.
After playing a bunch of matches today I was getting increasingly frustrated with the idea of Zerg as a whole. Roaches don't fit the mold for what the zerg means in my opinion. Oh great let me make a unit that murders zealots and sentries, and then once that lair comes up they can burrow to regenerate HP quickly... BUT WAIT THERES MORE... one more upgrade and your units can move underground. Not only that these magical little Zerg units have 145 HP. WTF are these things on roids? They're worth 1 supply and have that much HP? 1 zealot with 150 combined HP costs roughly the same and is worth 2 supply. How does that make any sense?
Not only that but once a Zerg gets Hydra the games over. A good hydra + roach combo beats most protoss combinations. They hard counter everything the other unit is actually weak against. And you don't even need that many for the combination to be effective. If you send 6 zealots with charge WITH +1 attack nonetheless against 9 or so hydra the 9 hydra will come away with little damage while you're down 6 zealots.
Blizzard should take another look at Zerg as a whole. If Roaches are only going to be 1 supply they should be more expensive or get a cut in HP (I think the latter would be better). If they make this change then I would be okay with Hydra being worth 1 supply as well.
It's annoying to go against these powerhouse Zerg units that, in my opinion, seem more like Protoss units.
Also I don't mind Marauders they kinda suck now vs Toss lol
Also everyone who's saying Zlings > Marauders... you know how many Zlings you need per Marauder when they're in a ball to actually be effective? Because last I checked Zlings can't even get close enough to do damage when enough Marauders are around.
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Zealots can easily defeat marauders. They have more health than marauders, do more damage than marauders, their attack cooldown is 0.3 sec less. Zeals are also cheaper by 25 gas. If you put in only a little amount of Immortals with your zeal force, they will tear through marauders easily, especiallly if you upgraded speed. Apparently marines are good against marauders as well. If you put them at the front of your force with your mech behind supporting marines, they should be able to beat mass marauders.
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On April 01 2010 07:30 zerglingsfolife wrote: I don't understand why the OP needs to talk in caps to make points.
Speedlings > marauders.
Immortals/zealotswithcharge/ > marauders
any air unit > marauders
Stalkers do decent against marauders because they move faster when not slowed and do bonus to armored units. Do you think at all? Seriously look at what you just posted and tell me if it makes sense...... What air unit does Toss have against marauders?? Marauders are already better then immortals and are easier to build so you cant use that. Zealots with charge (a loooooooong tier 2 upgrade) dont even hard counter them. Speedlings dont rape marauder balls (lol) anyway. Also marines compliment marauders in SO MANY WAYS its unfair. Like a cheaper version of hydra roach
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