|
On June 12 2011 19:19 decaf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 19:17 SEANSYE wrote:On June 12 2011 19:07 decaf wrote:On June 12 2011 19:04 SEANSYE wrote:On June 12 2011 19:02 decaf wrote: If they'd stream IdrA talking to Dustin Browder I'm sure 50k people would tune it to watch it. If they took IdrA's advice I would have to go shoot Dustin Browder. Can you elaborate on that a bit more? IdrA's advice isn't in favor of Zerg, he seeks for overall balance - it was him suggesting nerfing the roach during the beta so I'd like to see you backing that statement up. The same guy who prematurely leaves games? or doesn't even give an effort when he is a little bit behind. Like InControl said, "he plays like a robot". Can you elaborate on how this makes him any less credible? IdrA did not know about MMA blowing up his own CC and for him it was the perfect reaction to someone not "sucking". IdrA still gives the best advice. idra thinks he should win every single game
not to mention he always whined about terran being weak in bw and now flash is just dominating everyone
|
Blizzard is doing a good job and we will probably see a lot of changes in HoTS to make it more like BW.
|
On June 12 2011 19:42 Ezekyle wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 19:41 Kreb wrote: Threads like these make me so sad. Why must there always be a bunch of vocal people claiming the people behind THE VERY GAME THAT IS THE REASON YOU ARE HERE is stupid/incompetent/dont know what they're doing. If that was the case, you wouldnt be here. Starcraft would only be another random shit game which gets released and then forgotten a few months later. And we're also talking about the company which made the warcraft, diablo and WoW series.
How can you even live with yourself trying to make them out as incompetent? Im honestly baffled those thoughts can go through peoples minds. And whats up with trying to put all the blame on one person? Holy crap do you have any idea whatsoever about how Blizzard work? And do you think this one guy is in charge of everything and make stupid calls and then an army of blind followers carry out those stupid calls and implement them in the game? Seriously, what world are you living in? And on top of it people sit back in their chair at home and claim to know better. What. Is. Worng. With. You?
And yes, constructive criticism is good. But reasoning that problems exist because the makers of the far most successful esport game and some of the most classic game titles ever are incompetent, I dont have words for it. BW was a fluke made by different people and SC2 merely copied the magical formula that made it so successful. Making a good game based off the best RTS ever made is not an impressive feat.
Im sorry, so are you saying that the magical formula to make a good RTS that has a competitive scene is to base it off one of the first RTS's ever? And most likely the most popular. If that is so why is sc2 unrivalled in western culture as the most played RTS game. Why have other companies not stolen blizzards idea? I think people complaining about starcraft 2 in a starcraft 2 forum is the exact same as going to an artist you dislike's youtube video and then saying they suck. It achieves nothing.
Also cmon, how can the collosus be the most boring unit. Its not an "amove and win" unit at all, positioning and micro are key. Its the whole deathball which is "A-move and win" in certain scenarios.
Boring units one dimensional units like the reaper and the overseer, they will never be used as blizzard sees them. The reaper because helions are so much better for harass and drops are so much better for sniping tech, the overseer strikes me as a unit that blizzard decided would be awesome on paper but just has not lived up to its potential.
|
I'm not sure anything productive can come out of this thread, you try to jump to far reaching conclusions from a few interviews, whereas the game itself is good. Until you see something in the patch notes, you can't accuse them of doing any wrong and so far, every single balance patch made the game better. Think about that.
|
Im sorry, so are you saying that the magical formula to make a good RTS that has a competitive scene is to base it off one of the first RTS's ever? And most likely the most popular. If that is so why is sc2 unrivalled in western culture as the most played RTS game. Why have other companies not stolen blizzards idea? I think people complaining about starcraft 2 in a starcraft 2 forum is the exact same as going to an artist you dislike's youtube video and then saying they suck. It achieves nothing.
Sc2 is popular because it is polished, has nice controls and a rather healthy unit mixture and race variation to be enjoyed. Its success is mostly because there exists a real RTS market and no company has thus far provided for it. Unless you consider failure games like CnC which are utter garbage.
Also cmon, how can the collosus be the most boring unit. Its not an "amove and win" unit at all, positioning and micro are key. Its the whole deathball which is "A-move and win" in certain scenarios.
Collossus is bad because it is too strong. Scratch that, it is too strong and its too easy to use for its effectiveness. From bronze to grandmasters if you get a good number of collossus you should win the game, its that simple. Also they are not as vulnerable as people like to say they are, having a huge health pool and being backed up by a ton of stalkers underneath them.
Take the overused reaver comparison: if a random nub gets reavers they will fire a couple shots, kill some clumped units and then lose them. A gosu will kill that many more units while controling them. The reaver was a unit for which positioning and micro was key, all much more than for the collosus.
|
On June 12 2011 19:51 Kreb wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 19:42 Ezekyle wrote:On June 12 2011 19:41 Kreb wrote: Threads like these make me so sad. Why must there always be a bunch of vocal people claiming the people behind THE VERY GAME THAT IS THE REASON YOU ARE HERE is stupid/incompetent/dont know what they're doing. If that was the case, you wouldnt be here. Starcraft would only be another random shit game which gets released and then forgotten a few months later. And we're also talking about the company which made the warcraft, diablo and WoW series.
How can you even live with yourself trying to make them out as incompetent? Im honestly baffled those thoughts can go through peoples minds. And whats up with trying to put all the blame on one person? Holy crap do you have any idea whatsoever about how Blizzard work? And do you think this one guy is in charge of everything and make stupid calls and then an army of blind followers carry out those stupid calls and implement them in the game? Seriously, what world are you living in? And on top of it people sit back in their chair at home and claim to know better. What. Is. Worng. With. You?
And yes, constructive criticism is good. But reasoning that problems exist because the makers of the far most successful esport game and some of the most classic game titles ever are incompetent, I dont have words for it. BW was a fluke made by different people and SC2 merely copied the magical formula that made it so successful. Making a good game based off the best RTS ever made is not an impressive feat. Sources please? How do you know it was different people? How do you know their work was just about copying the magic formula of BW? Hell, what is the magic formula of BW anyway? Oh, and I very much disagree with it being unimpressive. Why dont you think more people do it then? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StarCraft http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StarCraft_II:_Wings_of_Liberty BW was designed by Chris Metzen and James Phinney, SC2 was designed by Mr. Browder. Since we're talking about Dustin Browder's judgement the designers are the only people who I care about for this argument. So yes, I absolutely know they were different people, though I thought that was common knowledge by this point. I would have provided sources in my previous post if I thought anyone didn't know that.
Magic formula of BW is the race dynamics, basic unit design (interesting that the BW units are the ones no one ever complains about...), the resource and macro systems, the emphasis on APM and macro caused by the need to constantly be building stuff, the general flow of the game, everything that makes it Starcraft. SC2 shares these features, so yes, it did copy the magic formula.
As for why people haven't copied it, that's a very good point. Unless...
Oh wait, they totally have. And why isn't it as successful? Well, apart from the obvious problem of an RTS not being a PC game, it doesn't have the races and lore and more importantly it doesn't have the names Starcraft or Blizzard anywhere on it.
Incidentally, before anyone asks "well if you love BW so much why don't you marry it" or says something equally stupid, SC2 is what got me into competitive RTS. I love this game, and I want it to succeed. I never played BW back in the day (except for the single player, but that's a totally different game), and it's so damn difficult that I have no desire to learn it. I watch it from time to time, but I can't manage the macro, I can't handle the pathing or the unit selection limit, I don't have any real understanding of the metagame and I like my almost-daily dose of Tastosis too much to switch. But just because I prefer SC2 doesn't mean I can't appreciate its predecessor. I want SC2 to succeed, and I understand that there's a reason BW became so popular. I see flaws in SC2's design that BW did not have, and I want those flaws fixed. I want SC2 to become a proper sequel that truly deserves its name, and the nonsense some people shout about "how dare you question the divine will of blizzard" and "its a different game stop comparing it to its main competitor" does not help.
|
Dustin Browder is still in diamond league, close positions still exist. Enough said.
|
hm, what the players want is not always good for a game. i feel if they would do something against close spawn on their laddermaps and some tweak for infestor / marauder / ultra i would be totally happy :3
|
On June 12 2011 20:01 SirMilford wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 19:42 Ezekyle wrote:On June 12 2011 19:41 Kreb wrote: Threads like these make me so sad. Why must there always be a bunch of vocal people claiming the people behind THE VERY GAME THAT IS THE REASON YOU ARE HERE is stupid/incompetent/dont know what they're doing. If that was the case, you wouldnt be here. Starcraft would only be another random shit game which gets released and then forgotten a few months later. And we're also talking about the company which made the warcraft, diablo and WoW series.
How can you even live with yourself trying to make them out as incompetent? Im honestly baffled those thoughts can go through peoples minds. And whats up with trying to put all the blame on one person? Holy crap do you have any idea whatsoever about how Blizzard work? And do you think this one guy is in charge of everything and make stupid calls and then an army of blind followers carry out those stupid calls and implement them in the game? Seriously, what world are you living in? And on top of it people sit back in their chair at home and claim to know better. What. Is. Worng. With. You?
And yes, constructive criticism is good. But reasoning that problems exist because the makers of the far most successful esport game and some of the most classic game titles ever are incompetent, I dont have words for it. BW was a fluke made by different people and SC2 merely copied the magical formula that made it so successful. Making a good game based off the best RTS ever made is not an impressive feat. Im sorry, so are you saying that the magical formula to make a good RTS that has a competitive scene is to base it off one of the first RTS's ever? And most likely the most popular. If that is so why is sc2 unrivalled in western culture as the most played RTS game. Why have other companies not stolen blizzards idea? I think people complaining about starcraft 2 in a starcraft 2 forum is the exact same as going to an artist you dislike's youtube video and then saying they suck. It achieves nothing. A much better comparison would be like, going on a Metallica fansite and saying that their newest album sucks in comparison to Master of Puppets.
That being said eh, yeah Blizzard's design team seems largery uninterested in trying to make the game have as much competitive depth as possible and instead focuses on catering to your average teenager gamer with rich parents with all the flashy stuff etc.
It's too bad, really. Especially since I really like the gameplay otherwise, they just have made numerous completely nonsensical development decisions.
|
So many people seem to dislike the collosi. I'm amazed that they have never acknowledged it as something that might need a fix =/
|
BW's, CS's, DotA's success wasn't made by the producers or developers of the game but from the community so I don't know how you can side with blizzard with this bullshit going on.
|
On June 12 2011 14:52 GhostFall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 14:51 Halcyondaze wrote: Blizzard interacts with its customers more than any gaming company bar none. It is not even close. actually if we're going by tournament player feedback, capcom outclasses blizzard easily.
And yet Street Fighter has broken balance. Except for like, Street Fighter 2 Turbo.
|
Roach.. boring 1a unit which isn't Zergy at all.
|
Blizzard did a great job and will continue to do so. The pool is missleading, in fact the collosus, the marauder and also the roach are interesting units, just a bit overused and therefor possibly considered uninteresting when in reality I feel they are, compared to the alternatives, very, possibly a bit too strong choices. This is mostly due to the fact that they are easy to handle. I personally would like to see some tweaks for hydra, for ultra, for reaper (maybe another unit there), changed to the immortal (possibly another unit there), to give more options..nothing more boring then collosus pushes, mass roach play and a lot of marauder balls. But again I have faith in Blizzard and also in Dustin Browder.
|
They can't really do anything to colossus without scrapping warpgates, or something else drastic. I doubt the redesign the whole race even in the expansions.
|
haha thats a good one blizzard not listening to the community. Then explain why the game went from a trilogie where only the single player part would change and multiplayer would always stay the same. To an expansion system. (my opinion is because of the we want more units qqers) And why do we have chat channels now after bnet2 was build for a console. Or why do scvs have now only 45 health T-T.
The actual problem is they listened to the community to much, or made it to obvious that they listened. Now everyone beliefs their changes are the best for the game and if they aren't applied asap, blizzard is evil again. From the patches we received i always was impressed how good they solved some problems. (i still think they overreact with their patches though, but they have to be done before HotS to start again ...)
|
They for sure wont redesign the core elements, such as warpgate..they will hopefully make interesting changes that lead to even more interesting games. I for one hope that they dont listen too much to the biased progamers..there own race is "too weak" etc...lot of rubbish from most of them. Also the community at large is not an indication for bad balance or anything..only an indication on how much FUN the game actuallly is...they wil do their job as good as possible and so far this has proved to be brilliant almost every time.
|
Thanks for a good post, I think it needs more attention that blizzard's design team for SC2 are somewhat incompetent and not worthy of the engagement and dedication that the game receives from the community. Sad, but true.
|
On June 12 2011 20:22 aimaimaim wrote: BW's, CS's, DotA's success wasn't made by the producers or developers of the game but from the community so I don't know how you can side with blizzard with this bullshit going on. Umm, what exactly are you implying? That BW/BS/Dota developers couldnt make a good game without the community help but that SC2 developers could?
|
Actually Banelings are a really boring units too, well at least in ZvT. Making tons of them (like 80) and a-moving them to PF/Bunkers/Tank lines followed with Mutas is not the game I want to play. Their splash radius and damage to buildings are just ridiculous. And the amount of micro Terrans has to put in this matchup because of banelings is quite unfair.
|
|
|
|