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Ok guys, here's my take as a tournament organizer who had a super shitty time. Be prepared for a lot of salt:
I keep seeing a lot of "filthy didnt define his goals" and "filthy didnt change the tour".
Look guys, I was running an open tournament. My goals dont fucking matter. I started a tour, said literally anyone was allowed to play in it. That, seriously, should have been the end of the discussion. If you didnt like it, you had the option to not watch or not play.
Instead, what I got was people playing in it week after week, and complaining repeatedly about how I set it up and complaining that I wasnt changing it.
Guess what? It's not your tournament! Once you've made your opinions clear, repeating them ad-infinitum is NOT going to make me suddenly change my mind. All it is going to do is piss me off (which, I mean, it clearly did).
I even went out of my way to make it clear that I heard the message, and didnt agree with it, and was going to continue and that the topic should no longer be discussed.
However that didnt happen.
So yeah, I was driven off and now I have a really bad taste in my mouth when it comes to doing BW stuff. And you know what? I've had lots of discussions with my sponsors, and other event organizers who have been following my tour closely. They *also* now are much more concerned about getting involved with BW. If your goal is to help grow the scene, you are doing it wrong!
Now, to the main topic. Should koreans be banned? Seriously guys, this should be left up to the fucking event organizers and the people who are putting their money on the line. IF YOU DONT LIKE IT, DONT WATCH OR PLAY. It seriously isnt that goddamn complicated.
/end rant
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On June 15 2017 01:47 FilthyRake wrote: Ok guys, here's my take as a tournament organizer who had a super shitty time. Be prepared for a lot of salt:
I keep seeing a lot of "filthy didnt define his goals" and "filthy didnt change the tour".
Look guys, I was running an open tournament. My goals dont fucking matter. I started a tour, said literally anyone was allowed to play in it. That, seriously, should have been the end of the discussion. If you didnt like it, you had the option to not watch or not play.
Instead, what I got was people playing in it week after week, and complaining repeatedly about how I set it up and complaining that I wasnt changing it.
Guess what? It's not your tournament! Once you've made your opinions clear, repeating them ad-infinitum is NOT going to make me suddenly change my mind. All it is going to do is piss me off (which, I mean, it clearly did).
I even went out of my way to make it clear that I heard the message, and didnt agree with it, and was going to continue and that the topic should no longer be discussed.
However that didnt happen.
So yeah, I was driven off and now I have a really bad taste in my mouth when it comes to doing BW stuff. And you know what? I've had lots of discussions with my sponsors, and other event organizers who have been following my tour closely. They *also* now are much more concerned about getting involved with BW. If your goal is to help grow the scene, you are doing it wrong!
Now, to the main topic. Should koreans be banned? Seriously guys, this should be left up to the fucking event organizers and the people who are putting their money on the line. IF YOU DONT LIKE IT, DONT WATCH OR PLAY. It seriously isnt that goddamn complicated.
/end rant
In theory you're right, its not complicated. But people disgusted by Scan's participation will still watch it and bitch around. Players will be unhappy but will participate, because any tour is better than no-tour. That's the reality. Organizer can either adjust himself to the position he is in, or prepare for inevitable hatred directed at Scan and organizers. These are facts. Thinking any different may lead into disappointment.
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On June 15 2017 01:57 Bonyth wrote: In theory you're right, its not complicated. But people disgusted by Scan's participation will still watch it and bitch around. Players will be unhappy but will participate, because any tour is better than no-tour. That's the reality. Organizer can either adjust himself to the position he is in, or prepare for inevitable hatred directed at Scan and organizers. These are facts. Thinking any different may lead into disappointment.
Disappointment and the loss of events. At the end of the day, it is on the players to act like adults. The event organizers can just (if you'll forgive the expression) take their ball and go home.
edit: I mean, read what you wrote. That, to me, is a completely insane stance to take. Event organizers may change their events if their goals are not being met, but that is their decision. The most effective way to get an event organizer to change what they do is to not participate. If enough people dont participate, they will either shut down or change - it's easy. Well, or they'll be stubborn and decide they're happy with the reduced participation.
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Social justice strikes again. Problem is we have a bunch of social justice BW players. Honestly, after reading this tread, I think the *only* problem with the BW community are the players coming in here all high and mighty trying to ban people or trying to decide how to run tournaments. Every other comment in the thread pointed out in detail how all arguments coming from truta, bonyth, kenzy, and any other social justice-ish poster were racist, dumb, illogical, etc. (Note: I am not saying these posers themselves are racist dumb or illogical, merely that their arguments were)
And you know what? These kinds of posters just don't care. Their feelings are hurt, they are butthurt, and they just don't care if they sound racist. They don't care if they sound illogical. They just don't care about anything other than how they feel about the topic right at this very moment. Sure, they have some valid reasons to for their feelings to be hurt. But, that doesn't mean they know what should be done. That doesn't mean we, or they, can understand why their feelings are really hurt (i.e. what the real cause is). That doesn't mean their opinions are valid or productive. It doesn't mean their criticism is constructive. It doesn't mean we should ban Koreans or Scan.
Personally I think the only message that really gets to them is to just troll them. At least, to troll them by pointing out how silly or racist they sound in every possible way.
Ganging up and targetting Scan like this under the guise of "justice for growing the BW community" is sneaky, and it qualifies as group bullying. Group bullying is a serious matter. And in this case it just comes off as racist.
And with that I want to leave my solution to this kind of ridiculous social justice debacle:
On June 14 2017 09:46 CecilSunkure wrote:Announcing the Make Yourself Feel Better (MYBW) BW Tournament w/o scan July 6th 2017 5pm PST. Scan is not allowed! No prize money, because it's about growing the community and not about money. Only the most loyal members are allowed. Only the truest, most non-Korean players competing their hearts out! The oldest and the most worthy European, Russian, American, and any other nationality can all compete in a completely safe zone, far from hateful speech and un-compromising Koreans. Finally, Brood War can grow and become what we all want it to be. Without further ado, here's our sponsor lineup! ~ ~ ~ + Show Spoiler [MYFB Summer 2017 Sponsor Lineup] +That's right! KeSPA has reformed in order to support this tournament! But not with money, just with hype.~ ~ ~ And finally the man himself. Scan agrees to play all games from now on until the end of his career without building a single Comsat Station. This will help the BW scene by increasing morale. ~ ~ ~ Everyone, let's make BW ... MY BW!!! It is not your BW, or his BW, but MYBW. Tournament Rules : - Scan is not allowed to play. Comsat stations are also not allowed.
- Koreans are not allowed.
- No money is allowed.
- This is a recurring tournament every month. The first place winner will be banned from each subsequent tournament to ensure the viewers enjoy the games.
- Everyone that participates, including viewers, must feel better. Otherwise viewers and players will be banned from future tournaments. The BW community cannot grow unless we feel better.
Cheers.
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Bisutopia19033 Posts
On June 15 2017 01:47 FilthyRake wrote: Ok guys, here's my take as a tournament organizer who had a super shitty time. Be prepared for a lot of salt:
I keep seeing a lot of "filthy didnt define his goals" and "filthy didnt change the tour".
Look guys, I was running an open tournament. My goals dont fucking matter. I started a tour, said literally anyone was allowed to play in it. That, seriously, should have been the end of the discussion. If you didnt like it, you had the option to not watch or not play.
Instead, what I got was people playing in it week after week, and complaining repeatedly about how I set it up and complaining that I wasnt changing it.
Guess what? It's not your tournament! Once you've made your opinions clear, repeating them ad-infinitum is NOT going to make me suddenly change my mind. All it is going to do is piss me off (which, I mean, it clearly did).
I even went out of my way to make it clear that I heard the message, and didnt agree with it, and was going to continue and that the topic should no longer be discussed.
However that didnt happen.
So yeah, I was driven off and now I have a really bad taste in my mouth when it comes to doing BW stuff. And you know what? I've had lots of discussions with my sponsors, and other event organizers who have been following my tour closely. They *also* now are much more concerned about getting involved with BW. If your goal is to help grow the scene, you are doing it wrong!
Now, to the main topic. Should koreans be banned? Seriously guys, this should be left up to the fucking event organizers and the people who are putting their money on the line. IF YOU DONT LIKE IT, DONT WATCH OR PLAY. It seriously isnt that goddamn complicated.
/end rant I stressed this too. I've already mentioned to certain players that this is affecting future sponsorship. It saddens me to think of potential sponsors/events I've already lost because of the viciousness of this and other threads of recent. It's not just the players, but the repliers too that have caused this. Although, I'm not disheartened by these threads and the many lost hours of work I've put into things that now cannot happen. Sometimes when your left with salt in your mouth you have to spit it out. I know personally I just have to work that much harder to overcome the adversity this arguing has caused.
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On June 15 2017 01:47 FilthyRake wrote: Ok guys, here's my take as a tournament organizer who had a super shitty time. Be prepared for a lot of salt:
I keep seeing a lot of "filthy didnt define his goals" and "filthy didnt change the tour".
Look guys, I was running an open tournament. My goals dont fucking matter. I started a tour, said literally anyone was allowed to play in it. That, seriously, should have been the end of the discussion. If you didnt like it, you had the option to not watch or not play.
Instead, what I got was people playing in it week after week, and complaining repeatedly about how I set it up and complaining that I wasnt changing it.
Guess what? It's not your tournament! Once you've made your opinions clear, repeating them ad-infinitum is NOT going to make me suddenly change my mind. All it is going to do is piss me off (which, I mean, it clearly did).
I even went out of my way to make it clear that I heard the message, and didnt agree with it, and was going to continue and that the topic should no longer be discussed.
However that didnt happen.
So yeah, I was driven off and now I have a really bad taste in my mouth when it comes to doing BW stuff. And you know what? I've had lots of discussions with my sponsors, and other event organizers who have been following my tour closely. They *also* now are much more concerned about getting involved with BW. If your goal is to help grow the scene, you are doing it wrong!
Now, to the main topic. Should koreans be banned? Seriously guys, this should be left up to the fucking event organizers and the people who are putting their money on the line. IF YOU DONT LIKE IT, DONT WATCH OR PLAY. It seriously isnt that goddamn complicated.
/end rant
You came with a very "american attitude" (i don't know if it's the good term, but i don't know how to say that, please don't be offended). You did a tournament that worked on another game (sc2 if i'm right) and you thought you knew everything about organize tournaments because yours, on sc2, were successful and you didn't learn about community or listen from her. But you know what ? Every community is different, and what could work on sc2 could possibly not work on bw.
We have already done thousands of tournaments, and we know what's good and what isn't, we sometimes disagree, but there are compromises, but you didn't even want to listen or understand our points, because you thought you knew better than us.
It remind me a lot of Magic the Gathering, i'm a competitive player in this game, and lately (1year ago), they changed some rules about tournaments, to apply what worked in america to all the world but guess what ? It failed, because mentality in europe aren't the same and we don't have the same pool of player. And what you are doing is pretty much the same.
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Bisutopia19033 Posts
On June 15 2017 01:59 FilthyRake wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2017 01:57 Bonyth wrote: In theory you're right, its not complicated. But people disgusted by Scan's participation will still watch it and bitch around. Players will be unhappy but will participate, because any tour is better than no-tour. That's the reality. Organizer can either adjust himself to the position he is in, or prepare for inevitable hatred directed at Scan and organizers. These are facts. Thinking any different may lead into disappointment. Disappointment and the loss of events. At the end of the day, it is on the players to act like adults. The event organizers can just (if you'll forgive the expression) take their ball and go home. I guess the difference between your goals and mine, is that I'm here to run events that are well received by the community. My mindset isn't, if people dislike this then I'll just end it. My attitude is that I love everyone that plays and watches and I'm going to work as hard as I can to make it work for everyone. I think you are an awesome guy based on our conversations in the past, I am just saddened that this adversity has taken it's toll on you and I think had you been with the community for longer then the announcement of SC:R things would have gone smoother for you.
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On June 15 2017 02:09 KenZy wrote: You came with a very "american attitude" (i don't know if it's the good term, but i don't know how to say that, please don't be offended). You did a tournament that worked on another game (sc2 if i'm right) and you thought you knew everything about organize tournaments because yours, on sc2, were successful and you didn't learn about community or listen from her. But you know what ? Every community is different, and what could work on sc2 could possibly not work on bw.
We have already done thousands of tournaments, and we know what's good and what isn't, we sometimes disagree, but there are compromises, but you didn't even want to listen or understand our points, because you thought you knew better than us.
It remind me a lot of Magic the Gathering, i'm a competitive player in this game, and lately (1year ago), they changed some rules about tournaments, to apply what worked in america to all the world but guess what ? It failed, because mentality in europe aren't the same and we don't have the same pool of player. And what you are doing is pretty much the same.
but at the end of the day, its my money? If I want to throw a brood war tournament with a $1000 cash prize that only allows players whose names start with the letter Q, that's my prerogative. Will it do well? Probably not, but that's on ME.
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big joke when people said ''u have same chance'' as scan or other korean. Of course, who does not Did nothing To have a chance win any C level players said easy u lazy and mentality bad. FACT im never better scan or other but We look forward to the miracle!! and wait when It will be enough more player for. There were people Who have seen it 5 years ago But they are always smart. That is to explain ur not talk tactics progamer house and u not search 10x easyst search game like me (other high lat 50% not play now have good lat for vpn but turn rate 12 16(big lag) or sry.) and I could list It's offensive. But this is ok I'm just begging not to say u have same chance. problem is here But relax all There will be others who understand. otherwise im not understand why need Talk about it racis and bad feeling i stop tour sponzor and more we have one point u have other ok good gg.
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On June 15 2017 02:10 BisuDagger wrote: I guess the difference between your goals and mine, is that I'm here to run events that are well received by the community. My mindset isn't, if people dislike this then I'll just end it. My attitude is that I love everyone that plays and watches and I'm going to work as hard as I can to make it work for everyone. I think you are an awesome guy based on our conversations in the past, I am just saddened that this adversity has taken it's toll on you and I think had you been with the community for longer then the announcement of SC:R things would have gone smoother for you.
So, to be totally honest, if the scenario had been that viewership and participation dropped off to where it didnt make sense... I almost certainly would have changed it to be foreign only (or maybe Korean only, who knows). Like, I went through this with my other tournaments in other games. I am *happy* to adjust stuff if I think its appropriate to do so.
Unfortunately, what happened was that people just complained constantly and were assholes. When that happens, my inclination is to dig in on my position OR to just say "you know what, fuck you guys".
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REGIONS, PEOPLE. Regions.
On June 14 2017 05:21 ninazerg wrote: Here's a nice compromise:
Hold a regional tournament for Europeans, North Americans, etc., then have the winners fight it out. Each regional champ will make a bit of cash, and then the grand champion will make a little bit more. You could break down the regions like so:
- North America - South America - Mother Russia and Commonwealth of Independent States - Europe - Korea - China - Southeast Asia/Australia/Japan/Anyone from the rest of Asia because I know they're out there - AFRICA
Or something like that. This would encourage those smaller communities to practice so they could win their regional championships, because it'd definitely be up for grabs.
But yeah, I'm fully prepared for no one to listen and to see like 5 more pages of people not even coming close to finding a solution. If you want a real solution, then at some point, you have to make some kind of compromise.
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Croatia9362 Posts
On June 15 2017 02:03 CecilSunkure wrote:Social justice strikes again. Problem is we have a bunch of social justice BW players. Honestly, after reading this tread, I think the *only* problem with the BW community are the players coming in here all high and mighty trying to ban people or trying to decide how to run tournaments. Every other comment in the thread pointed out in detail how all arguments coming from truta, bonyth, kenzy, and any other social justice-ish poster were racist, dumb, illogical, etc. And you know what? These kinds of posters just don't care. Their feelings are hurt, they are butthurt, and they just don't care if they sound racist. They don't care if they sound illogical. They just don't care about anything other than how they feel about the topic right at this very moment. Sure, they have some valid reasons to for their feelings to be hurt. But, that doesn't mean they know what should be done. That doesn't mean we, or they, can understand why their feelings are really hurt (i.e. what the real cause is). That doesn't mean their opinions are valid or productive. It doesn't mean their criticism is constructive. It doesn't mean we should ban Koreans or Scan. Personally I think the only message that really gets to them is to just troll them. At least, to troll them by pointing out how silly or racist they sound in every possible way. Ganging up and targetting Scan like this under the guise of "justice for growing the BW community" is sneaky, and it qualifies as group bullying. Group bullying is a serious matter. And in this case it just comes off as racist. And with that I want to leave my solution to this kind of ridiculous social justice debacle: Show nested quote +On June 14 2017 09:46 CecilSunkure wrote:Announcing the Make Yourself Feel Better (MYBW) BW Tournament w/o scan July 6th 2017 5pm PST. Scan is not allowed! No prize money, because it's about growing the community and not about money. Only the most loyal members are allowed. Only the truest, most non-Korean players competing their hearts out! The oldest and the most worthy European, Russian, American, and any other nationality can all compete in a completely safe zone, far from hateful speech and un-compromising Koreans. Finally, Brood War can grow and become what we all want it to be. Without further ado, here's our sponsor lineup! ~ ~ ~ + Show Spoiler [MYFB Summer 2017 Sponsor Lineup] +That's right! KeSPA has reformed in order to support this tournament! But not with money, just with hype.~ ~ ~ And finally the man himself. Scan agrees to play all games from now on until the end of his career without building a single Comsat Station. This will help the BW scene by increasing morale. ~ ~ ~ Everyone, let's make BW ... MY BW!!! It is not your BW, or his BW, but MYBW. Tournament Rules : - Scan is not allowed to play. Comsat stations are also not allowed.
- Koreans are not allowed.
- No money is allowed.
- This is a recurring tournament every month. The first place winner will be banned from each subsequent tournament to ensure the viewers enjoy the games.
- Everyone that participates, including viewers, must feel better. Otherwise viewers and players will be banned from future tournaments. The BW community cannot grow unless we feel better.
Cheers. This is the most ridiculous thing I've read in this thread. And that's saying something.
Surely the "social justice" people would *not* want Scan to be banned? Also, no one on the side of banning Koreans have mentioned race at all and it would be clear to a 6 year old reading their arguments that it's not about race. So please, stop spouting nonsense about racism and take your social justice elsewhere, where it's actually needed.
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On June 15 2017 02:17 ninazerg wrote:REGIONS, PEOPLE. Regions. Show nested quote +On June 14 2017 05:21 ninazerg wrote: Here's a nice compromise:
Hold a regional tournament for Europeans, North Americans, etc., then have the winners fight it out. Each regional champ will make a bit of cash, and then the grand champion will make a little bit more. You could break down the regions like so:
- North America - South America - Mother Russia and Commonwealth of Independent States - Europe - Korea - China - Southeast Asia/Australia/Japan/Anyone from the rest of Asia because I know they're out there - AFRICA
Or something like that. This would encourage those smaller communities to practice so they could win their regional championships, because it'd definitely be up for grabs. But yeah, I'm fully prepared for no one to listen and to see like 5 more pages of people not even coming close to finding a solution. If you want a real solution, then at some point, you have to make some kind of compromise.
Problems:
- Not many players in community to begin with
- Nobody cares about the regions from a viewer perspective. Only a few vocal social justice BW players in here are complaining
- Tournament organizers like Filthy (just judging by his posts here) don't really care about regions, and just want a tournament where anyone can join
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On June 15 2017 02:20 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2017 02:17 ninazerg wrote:REGIONS, PEOPLE. Regions. On June 14 2017 05:21 ninazerg wrote: Here's a nice compromise:
Hold a regional tournament for Europeans, North Americans, etc., then have the winners fight it out. Each regional champ will make a bit of cash, and then the grand champion will make a little bit more. You could break down the regions like so:
- North America - South America - Mother Russia and Commonwealth of Independent States - Europe - Korea - China - Southeast Asia/Australia/Japan/Anyone from the rest of Asia because I know they're out there - AFRICA
Or something like that. This would encourage those smaller communities to practice so they could win their regional championships, because it'd definitely be up for grabs. But yeah, I'm fully prepared for no one to listen and to see like 5 more pages of people not even coming close to finding a solution. If you want a real solution, then at some point, you have to make some kind of compromise. Problems: - Not many players in community to begin with
- Nobody cares about the regions from a viewer perspective. Only a few vocal social justice BW players in here are complaining
- Tournament organizers like Filthy (just judging by his posts here) don't really care about regions, and just want a tournament where anyone can join
These problems are solvable.
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On June 15 2017 02:17 FilthyRake wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2017 02:10 BisuDagger wrote: I guess the difference between your goals and mine, is that I'm here to run events that are well received by the community. My mindset isn't, if people dislike this then I'll just end it. My attitude is that I love everyone that plays and watches and I'm going to work as hard as I can to make it work for everyone. I think you are an awesome guy based on our conversations in the past, I am just saddened that this adversity has taken it's toll on you and I think had you been with the community for longer then the announcement of SC:R things would have gone smoother for you. So, to be totally honest, if the scenario had been that viewership and participation dropped off to where it didnt make sense... I almost certainly would have changed it to be foreign only (or maybe Korean only, who knows). Like, I went through this with my other tournaments in other games. I am *happy* to adjust stuff if I think its appropriate to do so. Unfortunately, what happened was that people just complained constantly and were assholes. When that happens, my inclination is to dig in on my position OR to just say "you know what, fuck you guys". Spnsor tourneys doesnt give u the right to call us assholes and telling fuck you,calm down,i think i was very respectful at every comment i made
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Bisutopia19033 Posts
On June 15 2017 02:17 FilthyRake wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2017 02:10 BisuDagger wrote: I guess the difference between your goals and mine, is that I'm here to run events that are well received by the community. My mindset isn't, if people dislike this then I'll just end it. My attitude is that I love everyone that plays and watches and I'm going to work as hard as I can to make it work for everyone. I think you are an awesome guy based on our conversations in the past, I am just saddened that this adversity has taken it's toll on you and I think had you been with the community for longer then the announcement of SC:R things would have gone smoother for you. So, to be totally honest, if the scenario had been that viewership and participation dropped off to where it didnt make sense... I almost certainly would have changed it to be foreign only (or maybe Korean only, who knows). Like, I went through this with my other tournaments in other games. I am *happy* to adjust stuff if I think its appropriate to do so. Unfortunately, what happened was that people just complained constantly and were assholes. When that happens, my inclination is to dig in on my position OR to just say "you know what, fuck you guys". Totally reasonable responses too. If I was the owner of your tournament I'd be livid with how everything transpired. I regret not stepping in earlier to help support your side of things. I've been too distracted by lilDagger (my baby, not an innuendo).
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Bisutopia19033 Posts
On June 15 2017 02:21 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2017 02:17 FilthyRake wrote:On June 15 2017 02:10 BisuDagger wrote: I guess the difference between your goals and mine, is that I'm here to run events that are well received by the community. My mindset isn't, if people dislike this then I'll just end it. My attitude is that I love everyone that plays and watches and I'm going to work as hard as I can to make it work for everyone. I think you are an awesome guy based on our conversations in the past, I am just saddened that this adversity has taken it's toll on you and I think had you been with the community for longer then the announcement of SC:R things would have gone smoother for you. So, to be totally honest, if the scenario had been that viewership and participation dropped off to where it didnt make sense... I almost certainly would have changed it to be foreign only (or maybe Korean only, who knows). Like, I went through this with my other tournaments in other games. I am *happy* to adjust stuff if I think its appropriate to do so. Unfortunately, what happened was that people just complained constantly and were assholes. When that happens, my inclination is to dig in on my position OR to just say "you know what, fuck you guys". Spnsor tourneys doesnt give u the right to call us assholes and telling fuck you,calm down,i think i was very respectful at every comment i made He's not attacking you personally, just expressing his disappointment when he wanted this to be a fun thing for everyone. It's okay for him to be upset. Let's just move on from this point.
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On June 15 2017 02:18 2Pacalypse- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2017 02:03 CecilSunkure wrote:Social justice strikes again. Problem is we have a bunch of social justice BW players. Honestly, after reading this tread, I think the *only* problem with the BW community are the players coming in here all high and mighty trying to ban people or trying to decide how to run tournaments. Every other comment in the thread pointed out in detail how all arguments coming from truta, bonyth, kenzy, and any other social justice-ish poster were racist, dumb, illogical, etc. And you know what? These kinds of posters just don't care. Their feelings are hurt, they are butthurt, and they just don't care if they sound racist. They don't care if they sound illogical. They just don't care about anything other than how they feel about the topic right at this very moment. Sure, they have some valid reasons to for their feelings to be hurt. But, that doesn't mean they know what should be done. That doesn't mean we, or they, can understand why their feelings are really hurt (i.e. what the real cause is). That doesn't mean their opinions are valid or productive. It doesn't mean their criticism is constructive. It doesn't mean we should ban Koreans or Scan. Personally I think the only message that really gets to them is to just troll them. At least, to troll them by pointing out how silly or racist they sound in every possible way. Ganging up and targetting Scan like this under the guise of "justice for growing the BW community" is sneaky, and it qualifies as group bullying. Group bullying is a serious matter. And in this case it just comes off as racist. And with that I want to leave my solution to this kind of ridiculous social justice debacle: On June 14 2017 09:46 CecilSunkure wrote:Announcing the Make Yourself Feel Better (MYBW) BW Tournament w/o scan July 6th 2017 5pm PST. Scan is not allowed! No prize money, because it's about growing the community and not about money. Only the most loyal members are allowed. Only the truest, most non-Korean players competing their hearts out! The oldest and the most worthy European, Russian, American, and any other nationality can all compete in a completely safe zone, far from hateful speech and un-compromising Koreans. Finally, Brood War can grow and become what we all want it to be. Without further ado, here's our sponsor lineup! ~ ~ ~ + Show Spoiler [MYFB Summer 2017 Sponsor Lineup] +That's right! KeSPA has reformed in order to support this tournament! But not with money, just with hype.~ ~ ~ And finally the man himself. Scan agrees to play all games from now on until the end of his career without building a single Comsat Station. This will help the BW scene by increasing morale. ~ ~ ~ Everyone, let's make BW ... MY BW!!! It is not your BW, or his BW, but MYBW. Tournament Rules : - Scan is not allowed to play. Comsat stations are also not allowed.
- Koreans are not allowed.
- No money is allowed.
- This is a recurring tournament every month. The first place winner will be banned from each subsequent tournament to ensure the viewers enjoy the games.
- Everyone that participates, including viewers, must feel better. Otherwise viewers and players will be banned from future tournaments. The BW community cannot grow unless we feel better.
Cheers. This is the most ridiculous thing I've read in this thread. And that's saying something. Surely the "social justice" people would *not* want Scan to be banned? Also, no one on the side of banning Koreans have mentioned race at all and it would be clear to a 6 year old reading their arguments that it's not about race. So please, stop spouting nonsense about racism and take your social justice elsewhere, where it's actually needed.
The posters are claiming that by banning Scan or Koreans they can bolster the BW community and help it grow. That is also social justice. Plus, I wasn't the first person to even bring this "social justice" point up. There are other posters who did so before me. I don't see you quoting them. Why not?
As for the racism thing, if you carefully read my post, I said "come off as racist", or "seems racist". Posts in this thread can come off, or seem that way because Korea is both a country and Korean is an ethnicity. I am not the only poster to point this kind of thing out, many others have long before me.
So what are you really mad about? I'm not really sure what the point of your post is, other than a big "NO YOU". It just sort of seems like you didn't really read my post or the rest of the thread.
Edit: Actually no some of the guys in here are racist lol:
On June 14 2017 14:59 sertman wrote: In all honesty, Koreans might have a very small genetic advantage (we're talking maybe 1-2% of the reason that Koreans dominate) - it's not out of the question that the specific brain mechanisms necessary to succeed at high-level video games have for whatever reason been favored in Korean culture for generations - however, the advantages are overwhelmingly the result of culture. I do have doubts to the effect of culture on the mechanical mastery that Koreans seem to show across games, but far be it from me to assert some inherent quality leading to this dominance.
I don't mind having foreigner-only tournaments. I love basketball but the Olympics are boring to me because I know the USA will crush every team up until the finals. Same with the old WCG tournaments, where it was essentially uninteresting until the Koreans inevitably played each other.
I haven't seen a compelling argument in this thread for letting Koreans play against people who haven't been steeped in BW culture for the last two decades.
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I think the implications (or perceived implications) in the term "social justice warriors" will likely take the conversation into waters that we don't wish to sail. It would be better to avoid labeling each other altogether and focus on the facts.
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Croatia9362 Posts
On June 15 2017 02:23 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2017 02:18 2Pacalypse- wrote:On June 15 2017 02:03 CecilSunkure wrote:Social justice strikes again. Problem is we have a bunch of social justice BW players. Honestly, after reading this tread, I think the *only* problem with the BW community are the players coming in here all high and mighty trying to ban people or trying to decide how to run tournaments. Every other comment in the thread pointed out in detail how all arguments coming from truta, bonyth, kenzy, and any other social justice-ish poster were racist, dumb, illogical, etc. And you know what? These kinds of posters just don't care. Their feelings are hurt, they are butthurt, and they just don't care if they sound racist. They don't care if they sound illogical. They just don't care about anything other than how they feel about the topic right at this very moment. Sure, they have some valid reasons to for their feelings to be hurt. But, that doesn't mean they know what should be done. That doesn't mean we, or they, can understand why their feelings are really hurt (i.e. what the real cause is). That doesn't mean their opinions are valid or productive. It doesn't mean their criticism is constructive. It doesn't mean we should ban Koreans or Scan. Personally I think the only message that really gets to them is to just troll them. At least, to troll them by pointing out how silly or racist they sound in every possible way. Ganging up and targetting Scan like this under the guise of "justice for growing the BW community" is sneaky, and it qualifies as group bullying. Group bullying is a serious matter. And in this case it just comes off as racist. And with that I want to leave my solution to this kind of ridiculous social justice debacle: On June 14 2017 09:46 CecilSunkure wrote:Announcing the Make Yourself Feel Better (MYBW) BW Tournament w/o scan July 6th 2017 5pm PST. Scan is not allowed! No prize money, because it's about growing the community and not about money. Only the most loyal members are allowed. Only the truest, most non-Korean players competing their hearts out! The oldest and the most worthy European, Russian, American, and any other nationality can all compete in a completely safe zone, far from hateful speech and un-compromising Koreans. Finally, Brood War can grow and become what we all want it to be. Without further ado, here's our sponsor lineup! ~ ~ ~ + Show Spoiler [MYFB Summer 2017 Sponsor Lineup] +That's right! KeSPA has reformed in order to support this tournament! But not with money, just with hype.~ ~ ~ And finally the man himself. Scan agrees to play all games from now on until the end of his career without building a single Comsat Station. This will help the BW scene by increasing morale. ~ ~ ~ Everyone, let's make BW ... MY BW!!! It is not your BW, or his BW, but MYBW. Tournament Rules : - Scan is not allowed to play. Comsat stations are also not allowed.
- Koreans are not allowed.
- No money is allowed.
- This is a recurring tournament every month. The first place winner will be banned from each subsequent tournament to ensure the viewers enjoy the games.
- Everyone that participates, including viewers, must feel better. Otherwise viewers and players will be banned from future tournaments. The BW community cannot grow unless we feel better.
Cheers. This is the most ridiculous thing I've read in this thread. And that's saying something. Surely the "social justice" people would *not* want Scan to be banned? Also, no one on the side of banning Koreans have mentioned race at all and it would be clear to a 6 year old reading their arguments that it's not about race. So please, stop spouting nonsense about racism and take your social justice elsewhere, where it's actually needed. The posters are claiming that by banning Scan or Koreans they can bolster the BW community and help it grow. That is also social justice. Plus, I wasn't the first person to even bring this point up. There are other posters who did so before me. I don't see you quoting them. Why not? As for the racism thing, if you carefully read my post, I said "come off as racist", or "seems racist". Posts in this thread can come off, or seem that way because Korea is both a country and Korean is an ethnicity. I am not the only poster to point this kind of thing out, many others have long before me. So what are you really mad about? I'm not really sure what the point of your post is. That's not social justice lol. If anything, that's the opposite of social justice.
The point of my post was to point out the ridiculousness of your post (and this argument in general) and put a stop to it before it spreads any further. If you can't assess the situation of the discussion here and come up with something meaningful to say, then you shouldn't post at all.
edit: also what Nina said.
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