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I think the best solution so far has come from avilo. Just Remove the ebay requirement for Missile Turrets. This makes it a lot easier to hold proxy stargate IF scouted and also makes DTs less troublesome.
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On May 04 2013 01:50 peidongyang wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 01:46 SlixSC wrote:On May 04 2013 01:43 peidongyang wrote: Just how a Terran 3rax double cc with scan around 9 assuming scouted nexus is considered a safe build, the same can be said that 1g expand into 3gate into robo or 1g robo into expand into 3G robo are pretty much safe builds.
You can't say that triple cc or 1 rax tech after expo is a safe build just because you have 3bunkers in the same manner u cant say 9minute third or 1gate colossus is safe build for Protoss.
True, premedivac or ultrafast tech builds from Protoss still can kill the Terran player but by the same logic 6rax into 3cc or 5rax timing can easily outright do the same. Both builds have a similar risk profile. From the Protoss point of view, if the immortal push fails, it's an auto lose, and if it succeeds its an autowin. The same can be said for 5 Rax scv pull attacks.
Terran and Protoss builds offer roughly the same risk and return profiles. However, Protoss are sticking with safer builds due to possible 1rax tech play and many terrans, especially flash, choose to use riskier builds which pretty much have the potential to build into a 70-80% late game winrate. What nonsense. 6 rax or 5 rax? are you playing an SC2 mod without forcefields and nexus cannon? whats the map name in arcade? 6rax - Mkp marine attack to counter slow colossus play and fast upgrades 5rax - the standard 5 Rax 4 medi scv shove Btw from ur previous posts u clearly are the one who is playing the arcade here 6 rax? You mean gasless 6 rax after expand, what MarineKing used against herO on the MLG Winter Consolation Bracket (link)? A horrible gimmick that only worked because herO didn't bother to MSC poke or scout at all.
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On May 04 2013 01:50 peidongyang wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 01:46 SlixSC wrote:On May 04 2013 01:43 peidongyang wrote: Just how a Terran 3rax double cc with scan around 9 assuming scouted nexus is considered a safe build, the same can be said that 1g expand into 3gate into robo or 1g robo into expand into 3G robo are pretty much safe builds.
You can't say that triple cc or 1 rax tech after expo is a safe build just because you have 3bunkers in the same manner u cant say 9minute third or 1gate colossus is safe build for Protoss.
True, premedivac or ultrafast tech builds from Protoss still can kill the Terran player but by the same logic 6rax into 3cc or 5rax timing can easily outright do the same. Both builds have a similar risk profile. From the Protoss point of view, if the immortal push fails, it's an auto lose, and if it succeeds its an autowin. The same can be said for 5 Rax scv pull attacks.
Terran and Protoss builds offer roughly the same risk and return profiles. However, Protoss are sticking with safer builds due to possible 1rax tech play and many terrans, especially flash, choose to use riskier builds which pretty much have the potential to build into a 70-80% late game winrate. What nonsense. 6 rax or 5 rax? are you playing an SC2 mod without forcefields and nexus cannon? whats the map name in arcade? 6rax - Mkp marine attack to counter slow colossus play and fast upgrades 5rax - the standard 5 Rax 4 medi scv shove Btw from ur previous posts u clearly are the one who is playing the arcade here
so now you are talking 2 base? but where are the 1 base all-ins? we are only counting protoss 1 base all-ins, if we include 2 base all-ins, we might aswell include 7 gate, 2 base collossi, etc..
For any 1 Terran all-in I can name 5 protoss all-ins.
3 rax into double cc was really funny by the way
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On May 04 2013 01:50 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 01:39 SlixSC wrote:On May 04 2013 01:33 Wingblade wrote:On May 04 2013 01:25 SlixSC wrote: what is this variety of all-ins everyone seems to be referencing?
6:30 medivac drop ????
Since apparently we can be that ambiguous with our statements here's all of Protoss all-ins. Proxy building. Not proxy tech. The key is how many things can go into the medivac? Hellions, hellbats, widow mines. And realistically those aren't even all-ins. Terran can tech out of their pressure builds better than Protoss and don't need as much committal. And you defend all of them the same way. By having your MSC ready and units next to your mineral line. If this is everything Protoss players have to worry about it really isn't comparable in the slightest to protoss all-ins, who have alot more variety. And players transition out of protoss all-ins all the time and its easier for protoss because terran has no way of punishing it thanks to nexus cannon. let's not fabricate "facts" here pls. warp prism dt expo isn't all-in either, auto wins lots of games and protoss is at NO risk. All right, you have invalided all further arguments by saying that warp prism, DT expo is no risk for the protoss. You over estimate the power of the MSC and nexus cannon.
Pretty much this
Dt drop is intended to do on average enough economic damage to end up ahead. Like all aggressive builds, this most definitely has the potential to set the Protoss back from being slightly behind to almost unwinnable. Think of this like cloak banshee. You can get ahead of your opponent but you risk being completely behind against any defensive 1-1-1 expand builds or fast enough turrets.
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On May 04 2013 00:24 eScaper-tsunami wrote: Mofocore and the mofoship was bad unit design from the get-go. Don't even know why blizzard is not insisting on remaking a unit. Probably trying to save face. Mofocore is creating problems in all 3 matchups not just pvt. Talk about exaggeration from a biased point of view. "Mofocore" improved PvP by heaps. It also made it less terrifying to deal with the plethora of zerg allins, all of which aren't really allins. It also alleviates the pain brought by mutas, which are extremely powerful at the moment.
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On May 04 2013 01:54 SlixSC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 01:50 peidongyang wrote:On May 04 2013 01:46 SlixSC wrote:On May 04 2013 01:43 peidongyang wrote: Just how a Terran 3rax double cc with scan around 9 assuming scouted nexus is considered a safe build, the same can be said that 1g expand into 3gate into robo or 1g robo into expand into 3G robo are pretty much safe builds.
You can't say that triple cc or 1 rax tech after expo is a safe build just because you have 3bunkers in the same manner u cant say 9minute third or 1gate colossus is safe build for Protoss.
True, premedivac or ultrafast tech builds from Protoss still can kill the Terran player but by the same logic 6rax into 3cc or 5rax timing can easily outright do the same. Both builds have a similar risk profile. From the Protoss point of view, if the immortal push fails, it's an auto lose, and if it succeeds its an autowin. The same can be said for 5 Rax scv pull attacks.
Terran and Protoss builds offer roughly the same risk and return profiles. However, Protoss are sticking with safer builds due to possible 1rax tech play and many terrans, especially flash, choose to use riskier builds which pretty much have the potential to build into a 70-80% late game winrate. What nonsense. 6 rax or 5 rax? are you playing an SC2 mod without forcefields and nexus cannon? whats the map name in arcade? 6rax - Mkp marine attack to counter slow colossus play and fast upgrades 5rax - the standard 5 Rax 4 medi scv shove Btw from ur previous posts u clearly are the one who is playing the arcade here so now you are talking 2 base? but where are the 1 base all-ins? we are only counting protoss 1 base all-ins, if we include 2 base all-ins, we might aswell include 7 gate, 2 base collossi, etc.. For any 1 Terran all-in I can name 5 protoss all-ins. 3 rax into double cc was really funny by the way The stupidity and lack of actual content in your posts is quite astounding.
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On May 04 2013 01:56 peidongyang wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 01:50 Plansix wrote:On May 04 2013 01:39 SlixSC wrote:On May 04 2013 01:33 Wingblade wrote:On May 04 2013 01:25 SlixSC wrote: what is this variety of all-ins everyone seems to be referencing?
6:30 medivac drop ????
Since apparently we can be that ambiguous with our statements here's all of Protoss all-ins. Proxy building. Not proxy tech. The key is how many things can go into the medivac? Hellions, hellbats, widow mines. And realistically those aren't even all-ins. Terran can tech out of their pressure builds better than Protoss and don't need as much committal. And you defend all of them the same way. By having your MSC ready and units next to your mineral line. If this is everything Protoss players have to worry about it really isn't comparable in the slightest to protoss all-ins, who have alot more variety. And players transition out of protoss all-ins all the time and its easier for protoss because terran has no way of punishing it thanks to nexus cannon. let's not fabricate "facts" here pls. warp prism dt expo isn't all-in either, auto wins lots of games and protoss is at NO risk. All right, you have invalided all further arguments by saying that warp prism, DT expo is no risk for the protoss. You over estimate the power of the MSC and nexus cannon. Pretty much this Dt drop is intended to do on average enough economic damage to end up ahead. Like all aggressive builds, this most definitely has the potential to set the Protoss back from being slightly behind to almost unwinnable. Think of this like cloak banshee. You can get ahead of your opponent but you risk being completely behind against any defensive 1-1-1 expand builds or fast enough turrets.
No you dont. Kas beat Shuttle just yesterday going fast banshee vs. fast turrets and there were plenty of games won by protoss after failing the DT rush, dts are cheaper and you can go directly into collo as a follow up.
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On May 04 2013 01:21 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 01:10 BronzeKnee wrote:On May 03 2013 23:26 Plansix wrote:On May 03 2013 23:20 BronzeKnee wrote:On May 03 2013 23:18 Prog455 wrote:On May 03 2013 23:09 ZenithM wrote:I think it's kind of related: we Terrans have to close our wall with a second depot very early to at least make the Protoss doubt about what we're doing. I don't know for you guys, but I'm still in a kind of autopilot mode where I let the probe enter my base thinking that there isn't much to see anyway. Well now that gas openings are more frequent, and with different timings (12 for reaper, 13 for normal factory, 15 for factory after expand, etc..), we can try to hide that info from them. They don't know, we might even have gone 1 extra rax proxied, and their proxy oracle no unit play is in deep shit against that. Two reapers And this is why people don't listen to you. You can't go double reaper vs. Protoss or else you don't have enough marines to hold off proxy stargates or stalker MSC pressure. It is physically impossible, and nobody in high master or GM will ever do that build because it is an auto-loss. This is actually true, and something you figure out very quickly as Terran (at your first insta loss to stalker msc pressure basically :D) To be honest i doubt that any of the Protoss players i play aganist even care about what they scout. It is very rare that i play against a Protoss that does not go for some kind of semi all-in build order, and i doubt that anything they see is going to change their game plan. There is a reason why some Protoss players don't Probe scout. More often then not, we get to see nothing except a walloff, and with a safe opening and the MSC, we are better off scouting with a Zealot or Stalker. I do agree completely with the thread starter regarding the MSC. However, if early game Protoss is somehow to be nerfed, then mid Terran needs to be nerfed. It is very difficult to hold off Speedvac and multipronged attacks. So whatever lead the Protoss gets in the early game, the Terran has the tools to nullify in the midgame. Personally I think this is a better dynamic than in WoL, where the protoss sat in fear of stim timings behind 5 sentries and chronoed out colossi. Then it was a slow, boring push to the third base, storms and mass warp gates. The idea that the terran keeps the protoss on 2 bases with drops while expanding it a way more interesting problems to solve. In some ways it is better, but in many ways it is worse. There is reduced variety of viable builds for Terran, which is bad. Every game playing out the same isn't fun, or even strategic, it is just comes down to better micro in the end. I wouldn't mind seeing the Nexus Cannon go and the MSC getting Energize, so Protoss can fill up their Sentries to use Hallucination for scouting and have a lot of FF for defense (FFs take a lot more skill to use than the Nexus Cannon). Eitherway, any nerf to Protoss early needs to come with a nerf to Terran mid game. Basically Protoss is stronger early in HOTS, but Terran has a stronger midgame. And the winrates show 50% each way. The terran builds are limited now, but they are likely to grow with time as the metagame shifts. I like the safer protoss openings that don’t require an endless gas dump into sentries and a greater ability to assert map control. It is just a more interesting game and I still fear terran in the early game if I can’t figure out what they are doing. The all-ins are strong right now, but defending new all-in them has always been a struggle and takes time. And the terran mid game is fine, because it is intresting to try to figure out way to delay that third base while also defending against speed drops.
If we learned anything from WOL, it is that the number of viable builds becomes more limited with time, rather than expanding.
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On May 04 2013 01:58 peidongyang wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 01:54 SlixSC wrote:On May 04 2013 01:50 peidongyang wrote:On May 04 2013 01:46 SlixSC wrote:On May 04 2013 01:43 peidongyang wrote: Just how a Terran 3rax double cc with scan around 9 assuming scouted nexus is considered a safe build, the same can be said that 1g expand into 3gate into robo or 1g robo into expand into 3G robo are pretty much safe builds.
You can't say that triple cc or 1 rax tech after expo is a safe build just because you have 3bunkers in the same manner u cant say 9minute third or 1gate colossus is safe build for Protoss.
True, premedivac or ultrafast tech builds from Protoss still can kill the Terran player but by the same logic 6rax into 3cc or 5rax timing can easily outright do the same. Both builds have a similar risk profile. From the Protoss point of view, if the immortal push fails, it's an auto lose, and if it succeeds its an autowin. The same can be said for 5 Rax scv pull attacks.
Terran and Protoss builds offer roughly the same risk and return profiles. However, Protoss are sticking with safer builds due to possible 1rax tech play and many terrans, especially flash, choose to use riskier builds which pretty much have the potential to build into a 70-80% late game winrate. What nonsense. 6 rax or 5 rax? are you playing an SC2 mod without forcefields and nexus cannon? whats the map name in arcade? 6rax - Mkp marine attack to counter slow colossus play and fast upgrades 5rax - the standard 5 Rax 4 medi scv shove Btw from ur previous posts u clearly are the one who is playing the arcade here so now you are talking 2 base? but where are the 1 base all-ins? we are only counting protoss 1 base all-ins, if we include 2 base all-ins, we might aswell include 7 gate, 2 base collossi, etc.. For any 1 Terran all-in I can name 5 protoss all-ins. 3 rax into double cc was really funny by the way The stupidity and lack of actual content in your posts is quite astounding.
that's not an argument, are we personally insulting eachother now?
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On May 03 2013 23:42 axgxFighter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 23:36 Cloak wrote: Statistically, TvP is the most balanced matchup for Korean pros, so this is much ado about nothing. It's just the issue is that Terran's difficulty curve is steeper on ladder than Protoss, and Protoss' learning curve is steeper on the pro level than Terran. Best you can do is watch how the gosu do it and practice. Theoretically getting "better" as Terran scales faster. That was in wol, the jury is still out on hots. Please try to keep up :p
Protoss in WoL was down across the board when the dust settled. I am keeping up. Talking about April tournaments here. PvT is the closest to 50%. The thread is front page still.
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On May 04 2013 02:00 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 01:21 Plansix wrote:On May 04 2013 01:10 BronzeKnee wrote:On May 03 2013 23:26 Plansix wrote:On May 03 2013 23:20 BronzeKnee wrote:On May 03 2013 23:18 Prog455 wrote:On May 03 2013 23:09 ZenithM wrote:I think it's kind of related: we Terrans have to close our wall with a second depot very early to at least make the Protoss doubt about what we're doing. I don't know for you guys, but I'm still in a kind of autopilot mode where I let the probe enter my base thinking that there isn't much to see anyway. Well now that gas openings are more frequent, and with different timings (12 for reaper, 13 for normal factory, 15 for factory after expand, etc..), we can try to hide that info from them. They don't know, we might even have gone 1 extra rax proxied, and their proxy oracle no unit play is in deep shit against that. Two reapers And this is why people don't listen to you. You can't go double reaper vs. Protoss or else you don't have enough marines to hold off proxy stargates or stalker MSC pressure. It is physically impossible, and nobody in high master or GM will ever do that build because it is an auto-loss. This is actually true, and something you figure out very quickly as Terran (at your first insta loss to stalker msc pressure basically :D) To be honest i doubt that any of the Protoss players i play aganist even care about what they scout. It is very rare that i play against a Protoss that does not go for some kind of semi all-in build order, and i doubt that anything they see is going to change their game plan. There is a reason why some Protoss players don't Probe scout. More often then not, we get to see nothing except a walloff, and with a safe opening and the MSC, we are better off scouting with a Zealot or Stalker. I do agree completely with the thread starter regarding the MSC. However, if early game Protoss is somehow to be nerfed, then mid Terran needs to be nerfed. It is very difficult to hold off Speedvac and multipronged attacks. So whatever lead the Protoss gets in the early game, the Terran has the tools to nullify in the midgame. Personally I think this is a better dynamic than in WoL, where the protoss sat in fear of stim timings behind 5 sentries and chronoed out colossi. Then it was a slow, boring push to the third base, storms and mass warp gates. The idea that the terran keeps the protoss on 2 bases with drops while expanding it a way more interesting problems to solve. In some ways it is better, but in many ways it is worse. There is reduced variety of viable builds for Terran, which is bad. Every game playing out the same isn't fun, or even strategic, it is just comes down to better micro in the end. I wouldn't mind seeing the Nexus Cannon go and the MSC getting Energize, so Protoss can fill up their Sentries to use Hallucination for scouting and have a lot of FF for defense (FFs take a lot more skill to use than the Nexus Cannon). Eitherway, any nerf to Protoss early needs to come with a nerf to Terran mid game. Basically Protoss is stronger early in HOTS, but Terran has a stronger midgame. And the winrates show 50% each way. The terran builds are limited now, but they are likely to grow with time as the metagame shifts. I like the safer protoss openings that don’t require an endless gas dump into sentries and a greater ability to assert map control. It is just a more interesting game and I still fear terran in the early game if I can’t figure out what they are doing. The all-ins are strong right now, but defending new all-in them has always been a struggle and takes time. And the terran mid game is fine, because it is intresting to try to figure out way to delay that third base while also defending against speed drops. If we learned anything from WOL, it is that the number of viable builds becomes more limited with time, rather than expanding.
That is true as well. I think Blizzard and the community needs to make sure that a lot of openings stay viable. We can't get into the era where protoss are going FFE every game vs zergs and PvT degrades down to "who drops their expansion first". If the all-ins become a huge problem and limit terran, I will be the first to say that they should be pulled back a bit. But I don't want the game to be as safe was WoL was.
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personally i think msc is too versatile for its cost, a 100/100 190 health flying unit with decent ground dps that can pull a slow field, mass recall and a nexus cannon with 13 range, big dps thats hits both air and ground and lasts 1min? idk.
i know pvp was is in a bad state and it was really needed but yeah i think atm it's a bit excessive in tvp. drops? banshees? any sort of early aggression? the cannon can fend it off in no time. almost all kind of aggression is deflected pre 10. and it can be casted twice in a row with banked energy.
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On May 04 2013 01:20 Toadvine wrote: If anyone has some free time, I think it would be a cool project to comb through the post histories of Terrans complaining in this thread, and see what they thought back in the 1/1/1 days. Curious what the results would be.
That would be entertaining. A lot of ... really ...really bad ideas here. I would add in a special mark for everyone who liked the warhound.
That said mothership core does kill off a lot of kinda cool dances between units and force fields early on. It's a sloppy solution but I suppose probably the simplest.
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On May 04 2013 01:52 Bam Lee wrote: I think the best solution so far has come from avilo. Just Remove the ebay requirement for Missile Turrets. This makes it a lot easier to hold proxy stargate IF scouted and also makes DTs less troublesome.
This is a GREAT idea, they've already done that for zerg with spore crawlers, but to make everything fair and above board perhaps Blizzard should also remove the forge requirement for cannons? This makes it a lot easier to hold off drop play IF scouted and also makes cloaked banshees and widow mines less troublesome. Yet another stellar balance change suggestion from our resident terran whiner; Avilo!
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On May 04 2013 02:07 Soicx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 01:52 Bam Lee wrote: I think the best solution so far has come from avilo. Just Remove the ebay requirement for Missile Turrets. This makes it a lot easier to hold proxy stargate IF scouted and also makes DTs less troublesome. This is a GREAT idea, they've already done that for zerg with spore crawlers, but to make everything fair and above board perhaps Blizzard should also remove the forge requirement for cannons? This makes it a lot easier to hold off drop play IF scouted and also makes cloaked banshees and widow mines less troublesome. Yet another stellar balance change suggestion from our resident terran whiner; Avilo!
have you ever lost to a turret rush? I dont really see the absurdity in his suggestion.
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I see a lot of people saying some ridiculous things with complete and utter bias here(avilo im looking at you too).
1. Toss can play extremely greedy and safe for the most part. This is a fact. 2. If the toss plays extremely greedy(like they should) then so can the terran if your scouting isn't shit...you have a reaper that only dies if it's your fault. You should NEVER lose a reaper. 3. If toss didn't have this option, the terran advantage in the midgame would be way too huge and protoss would need a ridiculous nerf.
So how about saying this: Because the terran midgame is good right now, the protoss NEEDS a motherhship core so they can play a game past 12 minutes and actually take a third. If you think that the mothership core needs a nerf, don't be an asshole and just say that it's unfair. Actually go out of your way and say what terran would need to have nerfed or protoss would have to get buffed.
The balance is actually really good right now. No allin is too strong if you scout and don't play too greedy.
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On May 04 2013 01:53 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 01:50 peidongyang wrote:On May 04 2013 01:46 SlixSC wrote:On May 04 2013 01:43 peidongyang wrote: Just how a Terran 3rax double cc with scan around 9 assuming scouted nexus is considered a safe build, the same can be said that 1g expand into 3gate into robo or 1g robo into expand into 3G robo are pretty much safe builds.
You can't say that triple cc or 1 rax tech after expo is a safe build just because you have 3bunkers in the same manner u cant say 9minute third or 1gate colossus is safe build for Protoss.
True, premedivac or ultrafast tech builds from Protoss still can kill the Terran player but by the same logic 6rax into 3cc or 5rax timing can easily outright do the same. Both builds have a similar risk profile. From the Protoss point of view, if the immortal push fails, it's an auto lose, and if it succeeds its an autowin. The same can be said for 5 Rax scv pull attacks.
Terran and Protoss builds offer roughly the same risk and return profiles. However, Protoss are sticking with safer builds due to possible 1rax tech play and many terrans, especially flash, choose to use riskier builds which pretty much have the potential to build into a 70-80% late game winrate. What nonsense. 6 rax or 5 rax? are you playing an SC2 mod without forcefields and nexus cannon? whats the map name in arcade? 6rax - Mkp marine attack to counter slow colossus play and fast upgrades 5rax - the standard 5 Rax 4 medi scv shove Btw from ur previous posts u clearly are the one who is playing the arcade here 6 rax? You mean gasless 6 rax after expand, what MarineKing used against herO on the MLG Winter Consolation Bracket ( link)? A horrible gimmick that only worked because herO didn't bother to MSC poke or scout at all.
Hero played ultra ultra greedy and got punished for it.
If he had poked with msc he might have gotten that it wasn't 2rax tech but this goes to show what greedy toss play is. People are saying that 3gate obs is a greedy build just because Protoss went1g expand before that and that there should be 1base Terran allins that beat that build despite this being possibly the safest pvt build nowadays that can match the potential of cc first, 1rax expand into tech or just straight up hellion wm medi play.
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On May 04 2013 02:06 absoluteX wrote: personally i think msc is too versatile for its cost, a 100/100 190 health flying unit with decent ground dps that can pull a slow field, mass recall and a nexus cannon with 13 range, big dps thats hits both air and ground and lasts 1min? idk.
i know pvp was is in a bad state and it was really needed but yeah i think atm it's a bit excessive in tvp. drops? banshees? any sort of early aggression? the cannon can fend it off in no time. almost all kind of aggression is deflected pre 10. and it can be casted twice in a row.
I think player over estimate the power of the nexus cannon. The cannon takes 5 shots to kill a single widow mins and 8 to kill a medivac. The cannon alone will not stop a speed vac from dropping off mines and might not even kill the medivac if something pulls its agro(assuming the player doesn't retarget the medivac). Widow mines can't pull its agro over a medivac or marine.
It is a powerful ability, but it will not stop all aggression, even with support.
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On May 04 2013 02:12 peidongyang wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 01:53 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2013 01:50 peidongyang wrote:On May 04 2013 01:46 SlixSC wrote:On May 04 2013 01:43 peidongyang wrote: Just how a Terran 3rax double cc with scan around 9 assuming scouted nexus is considered a safe build, the same can be said that 1g expand into 3gate into robo or 1g robo into expand into 3G robo are pretty much safe builds.
You can't say that triple cc or 1 rax tech after expo is a safe build just because you have 3bunkers in the same manner u cant say 9minute third or 1gate colossus is safe build for Protoss.
True, premedivac or ultrafast tech builds from Protoss still can kill the Terran player but by the same logic 6rax into 3cc or 5rax timing can easily outright do the same. Both builds have a similar risk profile. From the Protoss point of view, if the immortal push fails, it's an auto lose, and if it succeeds its an autowin. The same can be said for 5 Rax scv pull attacks.
Terran and Protoss builds offer roughly the same risk and return profiles. However, Protoss are sticking with safer builds due to possible 1rax tech play and many terrans, especially flash, choose to use riskier builds which pretty much have the potential to build into a 70-80% late game winrate. What nonsense. 6 rax or 5 rax? are you playing an SC2 mod without forcefields and nexus cannon? whats the map name in arcade? 6rax - Mkp marine attack to counter slow colossus play and fast upgrades 5rax - the standard 5 Rax 4 medi scv shove Btw from ur previous posts u clearly are the one who is playing the arcade here 6 rax? You mean gasless 6 rax after expand, what MarineKing used against herO on the MLG Winter Consolation Bracket ( link)? A horrible gimmick that only worked because herO didn't bother to MSC poke or scout at all. Hero played ultra ultra greedy and got punished for it. If he had poked with msc he might have gotten that it wasn't 2rax tech but this goes to show what greedy toss play is. People are saying that 3gate obs is a greedy build just because Protoss went1g expand before that and that there should be 1base Terran allins that beat that build despite this being possibly the safest pvt build nowadays that can match the potential of cc first, 1rax expand into tech or just straight up hellion wm medi play.
thats a terrible argument. to argue that greedy protoss builds arent greedy because you could play even greedier, is just as ridiculous as it would be to argue that 3 hatch before pool isn't greedy because... you know you could be even greedier and go 5 hatch.
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I'm actually pretty satisfied with TvP early and mid. P allins have always been strong, but it seems necessary because of how feeble P is midgame. Its easy to rage about scouting them, but that's always been a part of the game. And the goal of T should be NOT to let P get that AoE army late game or at least keep the armies trimmed down (not 4 colossi and 10 templar).
I also think "limited" builds is incredibly close minded. There are multiple openings and transition options for T to roll with through the game. It's not anywhere close to TvZ at the end of WoL, where you basically had two options.
It's funny, I've been worried that P is going to start butthurting about hellbats and widow mines and Blizzard will overreact and nerf them, but it seems T is upset?
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