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never lost to greedy protoss in master league for a while opening 3 rax reaper im still able to harass the P properly . defending 1 base allin is tough though
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On May 04 2013 00:22 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 00:11 Plansix wrote: None of this sound any different from what happens when a terran one bases-proxys a protoss. It not fun and feels like crap when you lose, but it can be held off. There is nothing awesome about two hellbats landing in your mineral line and you were preparing for something else. Or a proxy banshee that makes no sense, but there it is, killing your probes. Except there is zero 1-base viable proxy from the Terran side because proxy Mines are easily dealt with using Stalkers at home while you counter-proxy Oracle to collect your free win, or simply Stargate in base and send your first Oracle towards Terran's undefended mineral line (First vs Dream, Akilon Wastes, IEM). Proxied second rax doesn't exist anymore because it's awful, and proxy Banshees are garbage that don't threaten anything since Protoss always has detection at home when playing standard (because of the threat of Mine drops). I don't know what your league is if you encounter proxy Hellbat drops, but it's a horrible gimmick too.
Thorzain versus Titan game 1 from the final match of their WCS EU group would like a word with you.
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Mofocore and the mofoship was bad unit design from the get-go. Don't even know why blizzard is not insisting on remaking a unit. Probably trying to save face. Mofocore is creating problems in all 3 matchups not just pvt.
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On May 04 2013 00:24 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 00:22 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2013 00:11 Plansix wrote: None of this sound any different from what happens when a terran one bases-proxys a protoss. It not fun and feels like crap when you lose, but it can be held off. There is nothing awesome about two hellbats landing in your mineral line and you were preparing for something else. Or a proxy banshee that makes no sense, but there it is, killing your probes. Except there is zero 1-base viable proxy from the Terran side because proxy Mines are easily dealt with using Stalkers at home while you counter-proxy Oracle to collect your free win, or simply Stargate in base and send your first Oracle towards Terran's undefended mineral line (First vs Dream, Akilon Wastes, IEM). Proxied second rax doesn't exist anymore because it's awful, and proxy Banshees are garbage that don't threaten anything since Protoss always has detection at home when playing standard (because of the threat of Mine drops). I don't know what your league is if you encounter proxy Hellbat drops, but it's a horrible gimmick too. Thorzain versus Titan game 1 from the final match of their WCS EU group would like a word with you. Yes, and GuMiho vs Rain, Bel'shir Vestige from Code S too. Doesn't change anything about what I said.
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On May 04 2013 00:20 axgxFighter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 00:11 Plansix wrote:On May 04 2013 00:00 avilo wrote:On May 03 2013 22:55 Zealot Lord wrote:On May 03 2013 21:36 gillon wrote: 5:33? They can have an oracle out by 5:10, that's the norm. SG is going up at proxy position at 3:30~, you start it before stalker and warpgate.
This is ridiculous =/ If they are not building a stalker and warpgate on proper time (which you will see with your scouting scv..), build an ebay and get a turret at your mineral line... So you built an ebay, missile turret in mineral line, and then it turns out its 4 gate blink stalker. Autoloss. This is the issue people are describing. Protoss has too many options compared to Terran in early game openings. What would help is if they removed the ebay requirement to build missile turrets, as then if you see a proxy stargate or think DTS, you can invest into a turret in time. Investing in an ebay + 2 turrets + a bunker when the opponent happens to have gone immortal all-in, or blink stalker, or even standard macro with a 7 minute planetary fortress is the worst feeling ever. You are literally just behind because of the threat of insta-dying to coin flips. But you know it is some sort of proxy non-sense if you see no units, no warpgate and the third plyon is no where to be seen in the protoss base. You don't need to invest in 2 turrets, just get the ebay and try to find the proxy building. You stock pile a few mines off the factory, save a few scans and wait for the stupid all in to come. None of this sound any different from what happens when a terran one bases-proxys a protoss. It not fun and feels like crap when you lose, but it can be held off. There is nothing awesome about two hellbats landing in your mineral line and you were preparing for something else. Or a proxy banshee that makes no sense, but there it is, killing your probes. Plz watch my replay, i dont play protoss but i think it's a decent example. http://drop.sc/330210 I have warpgate started as soon as the core is done. I did only make 1 pylon in my base and you could scout that, but if i hid my sg really well... would you really know which all-in i was doing?
I am at work and can't watch the relay until later. But if there was one pylon in the base, my all-in alarm would go off and I would freak the fuck out. That is what protoss look for when they scout other protoss players(or at least I do). I don't need to know exactly what all in you are doing, just that it is some sort of proxy non-sense and make decisions based on that.
Then you save a few scans, because you don't need the mules against a one base protoss and dump out a bunch of mines and marines. Get the ebay too, maybe. And send out a couple of scouts to try and find the proxy. It is easy to see this stuff coming if you know enough about the enemy and limit what it could be and the rest is just living through it.
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On May 04 2013 00:05 mastman wrote: Perhaps terrans should start stim earlier... instead of teching straight to medivacs and hellbat or widow mine drops, while also making 3 cc's. Stim never helps, it's the sheer amount of units that you lack against warpgate supported all-ins. You have to compensate for this with static defenses like turrets or bunkers, but the trick is to invest in just the right amount that you're both safe from what you've scouted and not behind because of all this mineral spending.
Edit: After seeing the group of death, I think the mothership core was a great addition to the game. What worries me is the new buffed oracle, that shit seems crazy strong :D
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On May 04 2013 00:25 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 00:24 Wingblade wrote:On May 04 2013 00:22 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2013 00:11 Plansix wrote: None of this sound any different from what happens when a terran one bases-proxys a protoss. It not fun and feels like crap when you lose, but it can be held off. There is nothing awesome about two hellbats landing in your mineral line and you were preparing for something else. Or a proxy banshee that makes no sense, but there it is, killing your probes. Except there is zero 1-base viable proxy from the Terran side because proxy Mines are easily dealt with using Stalkers at home while you counter-proxy Oracle to collect your free win, or simply Stargate in base and send your first Oracle towards Terran's undefended mineral line (First vs Dream, Akilon Wastes, IEM). Proxied second rax doesn't exist anymore because it's awful, and proxy Banshees are garbage that don't threaten anything since Protoss always has detection at home when playing standard (because of the threat of Mine drops). I don't know what your league is if you encounter proxy Hellbat drops, but it's a horrible gimmick too. Thorzain versus Titan game 1 from the final match of their WCS EU group would like a word with you. Yes, and GuMiho vs Rain, Bel'shir Vestige from Code S too. Doesn't change anything about what I said.
Terran pros win games with 1-base proxies >>> 1 base Terran proxies not viable. K.
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On May 04 2013 00:31 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 00:25 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2013 00:24 Wingblade wrote:On May 04 2013 00:22 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2013 00:11 Plansix wrote: None of this sound any different from what happens when a terran one bases-proxys a protoss. It not fun and feels like crap when you lose, but it can be held off. There is nothing awesome about two hellbats landing in your mineral line and you were preparing for something else. Or a proxy banshee that makes no sense, but there it is, killing your probes. Except there is zero 1-base viable proxy from the Terran side because proxy Mines are easily dealt with using Stalkers at home while you counter-proxy Oracle to collect your free win, or simply Stargate in base and send your first Oracle towards Terran's undefended mineral line (First vs Dream, Akilon Wastes, IEM). Proxied second rax doesn't exist anymore because it's awful, and proxy Banshees are garbage that don't threaten anything since Protoss always has detection at home when playing standard (because of the threat of Mine drops). I don't know what your league is if you encounter proxy Hellbat drops, but it's a horrible gimmick too. Thorzain versus Titan game 1 from the final match of their WCS EU group would like a word with you. Yes, and GuMiho vs Rain, Bel'shir Vestige from Code S too. Doesn't change anything about what I said. Terran pros win games with 1-base proxies >>> 1 base Terran proxies not viable. K. But pro terran's are tiny gods and are able to make builds work that normal players can't. Haven't you learned anything over the last year and a half about terran. Professional terrans winning doesn't prove anything because they are simply to good and normal terran players will never obtain that level of skill and control.
Edit: To the post below me -Sarcasm.
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On May 04 2013 00:35 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 00:31 Wingblade wrote:On May 04 2013 00:25 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2013 00:24 Wingblade wrote:On May 04 2013 00:22 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2013 00:11 Plansix wrote: None of this sound any different from what happens when a terran one bases-proxys a protoss. It not fun and feels like crap when you lose, but it can be held off. There is nothing awesome about two hellbats landing in your mineral line and you were preparing for something else. Or a proxy banshee that makes no sense, but there it is, killing your probes. Except there is zero 1-base viable proxy from the Terran side because proxy Mines are easily dealt with using Stalkers at home while you counter-proxy Oracle to collect your free win, or simply Stargate in base and send your first Oracle towards Terran's undefended mineral line (First vs Dream, Akilon Wastes, IEM). Proxied second rax doesn't exist anymore because it's awful, and proxy Banshees are garbage that don't threaten anything since Protoss always has detection at home when playing standard (because of the threat of Mine drops). I don't know what your league is if you encounter proxy Hellbat drops, but it's a horrible gimmick too. Thorzain versus Titan game 1 from the final match of their WCS EU group would like a word with you. Yes, and GuMiho vs Rain, Bel'shir Vestige from Code S too. Doesn't change anything about what I said. Terran pros win games with 1-base proxies >>> 1 base Terran proxies not viable. K. But pro terran's are tiny gods and are able to make builds work that normal players can't. Haven't you learned anything over the last year and a half about terran. Professional terrans winning doesn't prove anything because they are simply to good and normal terran players will never obtain that level of skill and control.
So how do you propose to balance a race of a game aimed to be competitive - with the idea that the competitive players will simply do things a normal player can't?
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On May 04 2013 00:31 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 00:25 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2013 00:24 Wingblade wrote:On May 04 2013 00:22 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2013 00:11 Plansix wrote: None of this sound any different from what happens when a terran one bases-proxys a protoss. It not fun and feels like crap when you lose, but it can be held off. There is nothing awesome about two hellbats landing in your mineral line and you were preparing for something else. Or a proxy banshee that makes no sense, but there it is, killing your probes. Except there is zero 1-base viable proxy from the Terran side because proxy Mines are easily dealt with using Stalkers at home while you counter-proxy Oracle to collect your free win, or simply Stargate in base and send your first Oracle towards Terran's undefended mineral line (First vs Dream, Akilon Wastes, IEM). Proxied second rax doesn't exist anymore because it's awful, and proxy Banshees are garbage that don't threaten anything since Protoss always has detection at home when playing standard (because of the threat of Mine drops). I don't know what your league is if you encounter proxy Hellbat drops, but it's a horrible gimmick too. Thorzain versus Titan game 1 from the final match of their WCS EU group would like a word with you. Yes, and GuMiho vs Rain, Bel'shir Vestige from Code S too. Doesn't change anything about what I said. Terran pros win games with 1-base proxies >>> 1 base Terran proxies not viable. K. Instead of replying with a stupid sarcasm, have you considered that maybe they won because their opponent didn't react correctly, and not because the build itself is viable?
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On May 04 2013 00:35 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 00:31 Wingblade wrote:On May 04 2013 00:25 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2013 00:24 Wingblade wrote:On May 04 2013 00:22 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2013 00:11 Plansix wrote: None of this sound any different from what happens when a terran one bases-proxys a protoss. It not fun and feels like crap when you lose, but it can be held off. There is nothing awesome about two hellbats landing in your mineral line and you were preparing for something else. Or a proxy banshee that makes no sense, but there it is, killing your probes. Except there is zero 1-base viable proxy from the Terran side because proxy Mines are easily dealt with using Stalkers at home while you counter-proxy Oracle to collect your free win, or simply Stargate in base and send your first Oracle towards Terran's undefended mineral line (First vs Dream, Akilon Wastes, IEM). Proxied second rax doesn't exist anymore because it's awful, and proxy Banshees are garbage that don't threaten anything since Protoss always has detection at home when playing standard (because of the threat of Mine drops). I don't know what your league is if you encounter proxy Hellbat drops, but it's a horrible gimmick too. Thorzain versus Titan game 1 from the final match of their WCS EU group would like a word with you. Yes, and GuMiho vs Rain, Bel'shir Vestige from Code S too. Doesn't change anything about what I said. Terran pros win games with 1-base proxies >>> 1 base Terran proxies not viable. K. But pro terran's are tiny gods and are able to make builds work that normal players can't. Haven't you learned anything over the last year and a half about terran. Professional terrans winning doesn't prove anything because they are simply to good and normal terran players will never obtain that level of skill and control.
Then i must be a God
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On May 04 2013 00:45 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 00:31 Wingblade wrote:On May 04 2013 00:25 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2013 00:24 Wingblade wrote:On May 04 2013 00:22 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2013 00:11 Plansix wrote: None of this sound any different from what happens when a terran one bases-proxys a protoss. It not fun and feels like crap when you lose, but it can be held off. There is nothing awesome about two hellbats landing in your mineral line and you were preparing for something else. Or a proxy banshee that makes no sense, but there it is, killing your probes. Except there is zero 1-base viable proxy from the Terran side because proxy Mines are easily dealt with using Stalkers at home while you counter-proxy Oracle to collect your free win, or simply Stargate in base and send your first Oracle towards Terran's undefended mineral line (First vs Dream, Akilon Wastes, IEM). Proxied second rax doesn't exist anymore because it's awful, and proxy Banshees are garbage that don't threaten anything since Protoss always has detection at home when playing standard (because of the threat of Mine drops). I don't know what your league is if you encounter proxy Hellbat drops, but it's a horrible gimmick too. Thorzain versus Titan game 1 from the final match of their WCS EU group would like a word with you. Yes, and GuMiho vs Rain, Bel'shir Vestige from Code S too. Doesn't change anything about what I said. Terran pros win games with 1-base proxies >>> 1 base Terran proxies not viable. K. Instead of replying with a stupid sarcasm, have you considered that maybe they won because their opponent didn't react correctly, and not because the build itself is viable? Because that argument could be applied to protoss all-ins as well and that terrans aren't responding property. Also, Rain is one of the best protoss in the world, so if the build beat him, it was likely pretty good.
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Good OP.
I don't think you're necessarily behind if you play standard, but atm, you're kinda forced to go either 15gas FE or CC first... no real variations possible, sadly.
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On May 04 2013 00:50 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 00:45 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2013 00:31 Wingblade wrote:On May 04 2013 00:25 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2013 00:24 Wingblade wrote:On May 04 2013 00:22 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2013 00:11 Plansix wrote: None of this sound any different from what happens when a terran one bases-proxys a protoss. It not fun and feels like crap when you lose, but it can be held off. There is nothing awesome about two hellbats landing in your mineral line and you were preparing for something else. Or a proxy banshee that makes no sense, but there it is, killing your probes. Except there is zero 1-base viable proxy from the Terran side because proxy Mines are easily dealt with using Stalkers at home while you counter-proxy Oracle to collect your free win, or simply Stargate in base and send your first Oracle towards Terran's undefended mineral line (First vs Dream, Akilon Wastes, IEM). Proxied second rax doesn't exist anymore because it's awful, and proxy Banshees are garbage that don't threaten anything since Protoss always has detection at home when playing standard (because of the threat of Mine drops). I don't know what your league is if you encounter proxy Hellbat drops, but it's a horrible gimmick too. Thorzain versus Titan game 1 from the final match of their WCS EU group would like a word with you. Yes, and GuMiho vs Rain, Bel'shir Vestige from Code S too. Doesn't change anything about what I said. Terran pros win games with 1-base proxies >>> 1 base Terran proxies not viable. K. Instead of replying with a stupid sarcasm, have you considered that maybe they won because their opponent didn't react correctly, and not because the build itself is viable? Because that argument could be applied to protoss all-ins as well and that terrans aren't responding property. Also, Rain is one of the best protoss in the world, so if the build beat him, it was likely pretty good. Except Protoss all-ins are way more dangerous, and perfectly reacting in such a way that you auto-win after fending him off the all-in (for instance Blink Stalkers) is considerably harder than building a Stargate and an Oracle.
And no, bad builds can win even the best players in the world. Soulkey is a very good Zerg and still he lost right away to 8-8-8 against Maru, which doesn't mean 8-8-8 is a "pretty good" build.
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I think that what you stated is true, but I don't think tvp is horribly imba because of the new reaper. I'm a masters Terran and my Intire tvp right now revolves around using a reaper scout to Taylor builds wich put me ahead. Also I think tvp will only ever be ballanced at the highest level because Terran army control is so challenging in comparison to Protoss army control in straight up fights and getting hit by storms is so punishing. however at the highest level Terran players have such good multi pronged aggression, build orders, mechanics, and control that I think they can use the Terran kit effectively vs toss and things are rather ballanced.
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On May 03 2013 23:25 drop271 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 23:06 SlixSC wrote:On May 03 2013 23:02 Plansix wrote:On May 03 2013 22:55 Zealot Lord wrote:On May 03 2013 21:36 gillon wrote: 5:33? They can have an oracle out by 5:10, that's the norm. SG is going up at proxy position at 3:30~, you start it before stalker and warpgate.
This is ridiculous =/ If they are not building a stalker and warpgate on proper time (which you will see with your scouting scv..), build an ebay and get a turret at your mineral line... We don't talk about the time after the cybercore finishes and the protoss still needs to mine 150 gas. That time is off limits for discussion about scouting and preparing. I mean, sure when that gateway makes no units for the entire build time of the stargate it might tell you something is up and give you time to prepare. But that isn't up for discussion because its impossible. I think you meant to quote me and you should know something. I'm not talking about proxy stargate, I was having a completely different discussion with someone else. This is the second time you tried to checkmate me with "proxy oracle cant have MSC", please stop it. I never once mentioned proxy oracles. On May 03 2013 23:06 drop271 wrote:On May 03 2013 22:57 SlixSC wrote:On May 03 2013 22:55 Plansix wrote:On May 03 2013 22:50 SlixSC wrote:On May 03 2013 22:48 Prog455 wrote:On May 03 2013 19:46 Verator wrote: Old school 2rax openings can do a lot of damage to a greedy protoss now, and drops are still devastating and effective. You just need to learn to bait out a nexus cannon, retreat, then go in right afterwards. The problem is that Nexus Canon last for 20 seconds. Even if you manage to bait it you still can't do anything during that time, and 20 seconds can be a lot of time if you rely on timing attacks. Especially considering how much a single round of warp-ins will change the outcome of a fight. 20 seconds would be nice. It actually lasts for 60 seconds. Which, come to think about it, is pretty ridiculous. It makes baiting Nexus Cannons pretty much pointless, because by the time it expires you already have the next one ready haha. On May 03 2013 22:50 tar wrote: You could write a very similar post about PvT, where Toss players whine they cannot know if there will be mine drops, hellbat drops or even hellion marine drops or a "proxy factory base float" or a classic 3 CC build prioir to the 6:40to 7:00 min mark (earliest hallu scouting). Nexus cannon helps defending a lot, yet the amount of damage a T can inflict within a blink of an eye to a mineral line with 2 hellbats or mines and a speedvac is shocking.
No you couldn't, Protosses use MSC to scout the edge of the terran base and stalkers to check the ramp. It is extremely unlikely that Terran tech will go by unnoticed pretty much ever. And inb4 "MSC too slow", its only slightly slower than marines and can cast timewarp so you can always get out. Wait, I can have the MSC at the edge of the terran base and at home to cast the nexus cannon at the same time? Someone needs to tell Minigun that, because he almost lost his in that game against Apocalypse. Why do you need your mothership core at home at the 4:30 min mark? What could the Terran possibly have that you couldn't just hold off with a single stalker instead? Two reapers And this is why people don't listen to you. You can't go double reaper vs. Protoss or else you don't have enough marines to hold off proxy stargates or stalker MSC pressure. It is physically impossible, and nobody in high master or GM will ever do that build because it is an auto-loss. Frankly I'd be surprised if anyone is listening to you given that you have vomited up so much shit in this thread that you are probably having to wipe down your keyboard after every post. You just responded to tar's post about unscouted Terran tech by saying it can't be unscouted because you can use an MSC safely. As I said, its not completely safe to scout with the MSC, because there are a definitely ways that Terran can put on pressure before that point. Another ad hominem crack doesn't make you correct, nor does the fact that the example is uncommon, and can be countered. Players (masters and above) take gambles all the time with builds that can be blind countered
So you were proven wrong and this is your comeback? "You vomit up shit".
Stay classy TL.
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PDD cancels out Planetary Nexus.
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On May 04 2013 00:54 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 00:50 Plansix wrote:On May 04 2013 00:45 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2013 00:31 Wingblade wrote:On May 04 2013 00:25 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2013 00:24 Wingblade wrote:On May 04 2013 00:22 TheDwf wrote:On May 04 2013 00:11 Plansix wrote: None of this sound any different from what happens when a terran one bases-proxys a protoss. It not fun and feels like crap when you lose, but it can be held off. There is nothing awesome about two hellbats landing in your mineral line and you were preparing for something else. Or a proxy banshee that makes no sense, but there it is, killing your probes. Except there is zero 1-base viable proxy from the Terran side because proxy Mines are easily dealt with using Stalkers at home while you counter-proxy Oracle to collect your free win, or simply Stargate in base and send your first Oracle towards Terran's undefended mineral line (First vs Dream, Akilon Wastes, IEM). Proxied second rax doesn't exist anymore because it's awful, and proxy Banshees are garbage that don't threaten anything since Protoss always has detection at home when playing standard (because of the threat of Mine drops). I don't know what your league is if you encounter proxy Hellbat drops, but it's a horrible gimmick too. Thorzain versus Titan game 1 from the final match of their WCS EU group would like a word with you. Yes, and GuMiho vs Rain, Bel'shir Vestige from Code S too. Doesn't change anything about what I said. Terran pros win games with 1-base proxies >>> 1 base Terran proxies not viable. K. Instead of replying with a stupid sarcasm, have you considered that maybe they won because their opponent didn't react correctly, and not because the build itself is viable? Because that argument could be applied to protoss all-ins as well and that terrans aren't responding property. Also, Rain is one of the best protoss in the world, so if the build beat him, it was likely pretty good. Except Protoss all-ins are way more dangerous, and perfectly reacting in such a way that you auto-win after fending him off the all-in (for instance Blink Stalkers) is considerably harder than building a Stargate and an Oracle. And no, bad builds can win even the best players in the world. Soulkey is a very good Zerg and still he lost right away to 8-8-8 against Maru, which doesn't mean 8-8-8 is a "pretty good" build. I think you are incorrect that the protoss all-ins more dangerous that the terran versions. And all all-ins are easier to preform than defend, it has always been that way. Baneling busts are not hard to preform, but it is difficult to defend without taking losses.
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1 base concussive shell 2 rax works like a charm. (reactor on first rax after 1 marine, techlab on 2nd rax as soon as it finishes. start attack as soon as 2nd marauder+ concussive shells finish.) -> 60% winrate @ high diamond and low Masters (both NA and EU).
I'm on the mission to make protosses less greedy guys. i got this.
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On May 03 2013 23:26 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 23:20 BronzeKnee wrote:On May 03 2013 23:18 Prog455 wrote:On May 03 2013 23:09 ZenithM wrote:I think it's kind of related: we Terrans have to close our wall with a second depot very early to at least make the Protoss doubt about what we're doing. I don't know for you guys, but I'm still in a kind of autopilot mode where I let the probe enter my base thinking that there isn't much to see anyway. Well now that gas openings are more frequent, and with different timings (12 for reaper, 13 for normal factory, 15 for factory after expand, etc..), we can try to hide that info from them. They don't know, we might even have gone 1 extra rax proxied, and their proxy oracle no unit play is in deep shit against that. Two reapers And this is why people don't listen to you. You can't go double reaper vs. Protoss or else you don't have enough marines to hold off proxy stargates or stalker MSC pressure. It is physically impossible, and nobody in high master or GM will ever do that build because it is an auto-loss. This is actually true, and something you figure out very quickly as Terran (at your first insta loss to stalker msc pressure basically :D) To be honest i doubt that any of the Protoss players i play aganist even care about what they scout. It is very rare that i play against a Protoss that does not go for some kind of semi all-in build order, and i doubt that anything they see is going to change their game plan. There is a reason why some Protoss players don't Probe scout. More often then not, we get to see nothing except a walloff, and with a safe opening and the MSC, we are better off scouting with a Zealot or Stalker. I do agree completely with the thread starter regarding the MSC. However, if early game Protoss is somehow to be nerfed, then mid Terran needs to be nerfed. It is very difficult to hold off Speedvac and multipronged attacks. So whatever lead the Protoss gets in the early game, the Terran has the tools to nullify in the midgame. Personally I think this is a better dynamic than in WoL, where the protoss sat in fear of stim timings behind 5 sentries and chronoed out colossi. Then it was a slow, boring push to the third base, storms and mass warp gates. The idea that the terran keeps the protoss on 2 bases with drops while expanding it a way more interesting problems to solve.
In some ways it is better, but in many ways it is worse. There is reduced variety of viable builds for Terran, which is bad. Every game playing out the same isn't fun, or even strategic, it is just comes down to better micro in the end.
I wouldn't mind seeing the Nexus Cannon go and the MSC getting Energize, so Protoss can fill up their Sentries to use Hallucination for scouting and have a lot of FF for defense (FFs take a lot more skill to use than the Nexus Cannon).
Eitherway, any nerf to Protoss early needs to come with a nerf to Terran mid game. Basically Protoss is stronger early in HOTS, but Terran has a stronger midgame. And the winrates show 50% each way.
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