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Obviously because a player of his caliber should have won all those games anyway. And what games are you even talking about? The games he didn't win in OSL or the games in MSL? Because the games in Gom really weren't that impressive and his wins were all against lesser players. That day in the proleague was the most important day and extremely relevant. In this past month, Flash has accomplished very little relatively. Gom is the least prestigious tournament for a reason, although he has been doing well.
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On August 07 2009 08:47 ghostWriter wrote: Obviously because a player of his caliber should have won all those games anyway. And what games are you even talking about? The games he didn't win in OSL or the games in MSL? Because the games in Gom really weren't that impressive and his wins were all against lesser players. That day in the proleague was the most important day and extremely relevant. In this past month, Flash has accomplished very little relatively. Gom is the least prestigious tournament for a reason, although he has been doing well.
Um no, I'm talking about his entire sickening proleague run. His winner's league run. All the unbelievably clutch games he won in proleague.
Do you know why the STX match was the game that gave KT a shot at playoffs? Because KT had just recently beat Khan, which closed the gap significantly.
Khan vs KT was undeniably the highest stake game for KT to win because it, unlike the STX game, was worth 2 points in the race for KT and Khan. Losing to STX would've only put them one point behind.
Now please, go remember that match up. Khan was playing what looked like their B Team (we would later realize that those guys had some serious game, massively supporting Khan past STX and against CJ, but this is retrospective so I'll get back to the topic). Flash took his win against Yoon in demanding fashion, setting the tone for KT to sweep the series. 815 delivered, netting KT's second win with his reliable ZvZ, and, at the very least, got Flash into the ace match.
Then, Luxury continues his fail streak and Violet chokes against Great.
I'm going to remind you that this -- not STX -- was the real decider for KT even having a shot at playoffs.
So now, it's the atypical KT story. Flash destroys someone, another random KT schnub wins his good match up, and the rest of KT fails, regardless of their MASSIVE star power (so much facepalming at Luxury and Violet). Now comes time for ace. Realize that Flash *is* KT's ace, no matter what silly ForGG shenanigans they show, whenever KT sends Flash, Flash was ready and practiced for this game. Khan's last encounter with KT ended with both Stork and Jangbi taking Flash down, so everyone (and I'm assuming even Flash) figured one of the dragons, neither of which had to play that day, would be practiced and fresh to snipe the hell out of Flash with either of the two pest PvTs of all times.
Then FBH comes out. FBH was a damn shock, but a smart choice. Flash had to prepare extra for a protoss in that ace match because of the double threat, but FBH, too, was completely fresh and, say what you will about his bad TvZ lately and perpetually bad TvP, FBH is still a beast TvTer on a 7 game winning streak before this game.
I'm not sure if you saw that match -- I'm hoping you did -- because it was amazing. FBH completely crippled Flash early on with a daring and precise tank push + scan, completely obliterating 80% of Flash's standing army and taking almost no losses in the process. Any other terran would've been done at that point. Fantasy, Leta, Canata, Skyhigh? There's no way any of them could make up that massive disadvantage that early, and should just very well have typed out GG. Hell, I, an insane Flash fan (atleast when I'm watching his games), thought he should've just GG'd right there because there's no way you win after losing not only the vast majority of your tanks, but your map presence and all the SCV's he lost in the follow up push to defend.
The rest of the game was fucking magic. No one jokes when they say Flash is the best TvTer. The only person with a match up honestly better than Flash's TvT is Jaedong's ZvZ. Flash, at a disadvantage a hair's breadth from being a loss, in the most important single game of KT's proleague, and probably of Flash's life, started calculating. FBH is not dumb, and did not suicidally push his army into Flash's airtight defense to try to steal an early win. He compounded his advantage and completely dominated most of the map, building a ridiculous economy and covering 2/3rds of the map in turrets.
Flash, calmly and cleanly, began to dissect FBH's control. Nearly every head on fight from that point on favored Flash. His drop ship play and map control was amazing -- narrowly dodging nearly every turret FBH placed through tight areas (usually the bridges) to harass and take control of the few expos FBH couldn't easily protect. His dropship play was phenominal.
He didn't play a perfect game, though. He made a few mistakes -- losing dropships here and there, letting FBH's tanks sneak a few free tank kills, taking some mine shots he shouldn't, etc. But Flash played what I think, and what he said was the best game of his life.
I'm not sure if that sunk in for you, because it instantly hit me as a dedicated Flash fan. Flash has played many, many amazing games. Flash is the only man who stood up to the Dragons during their absolute peak, and not only matched them, but denied their leader, the best PvTer Stork, 2 titles (GSI, OSL) in absolutely stunning games, and taking out Bisu for good measure in the OSL. Flash is the man who stood toe to toe with Jaedong in Tyrant mode(Go back to when Flash was #1 in the PR for a recap), trading blows evenly with what many have called the closest thing to a perfect starcraft player there is.
Flash, even after all these accomplishments and all these great games, still said that his personal best was his play vs FBH, in the proleague, in the match that was the ultimate do or die for KT not only to have a chance to get to playoffs, but to even have a chance to tie Khan for the spot. The highest stakes for KT, period.
You want to criticize Flash for not throwing down when the stakes were the highest for proleague? You don't know a damn thing about Flash, or the stakes he's played against. You don't know a thing about what kept KT, the team as old and loved as SKT1, alive this season. You don't even grasp how much Flash has to deal with to accomplish what he does.
This isn't his best month, not by a long shot, but that's not even the discussion here. You want to blame Flash for KT's 7th place because he couldn't win when the chips were down? That's downright despicable.
edit: haha I keep making these wall of text Flash posts but man do people keep ragging on him for all the wrong reasons. Like I'm not even the kind of guy who defended Flash when he got destroyed by Yarnc and Jaedong and other zergs, not my style to fight a hopeless battle, but this "Flash did so bad in proleague when it was so important!!!" posting is so off base it's ridiculous. I'm starting to be a more indignant, less caps lock-y MrHoon. :x
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On August 07 2009 07:40 ghostWriter wrote: Having a bad day is perfectly understandable. I don't expect or ask for perfection from any player. But Flash dropped those 2 games in the most important series. It matters because if they won, they would have made it to the playoffs, even if Khan won their series (they did).
No, it wouldn't necessarily have forced a tiebreaker because KHAN's game differential would likely still be superior.
On August 07 2009 07:40 ghostWriter wrote:At the very least, they could have tied and forced a tiebreaker, but Flash's poor performance kept them from that and I will hold it against him and use it to justify his absence from this power rank.
Let's say Flash had lost to Calm (since he's been having trouble with his TvZ lately and Calm's a beast, this is perfectly plausible) and then beat Kal (say, Kal missed his timing window, which is also perfectly plausible). Would it have been a bad day? No. Would KT be in the playoffs? No.
Now further realize that the only reason Flash lost to Kal was, as I pointed out, a perfectly timed DT drop. For once in his life, Flash got beaten in a timing game. Yes, it was a bad day - but that's about the tiniest possible mistake he could have made to lose. And it made no difference overall. Also it was a month ago.
On August 07 2009 07:40 ghostWriter wrote:Dropping games when the stakes were the highest, to players that he should beat is a huge knock (calm is a top 10 player for sure, but Flash is better than him and kal is very good but he's not the player he was during the "6 dragons" period).
I think, while we're looking at last month's games, that there's an argument to be made that Jaedong shouldn't be number one. In a crucial match against KHAN that would have let OZ have a chance of reclaiming #1, Jaedong went out against Stork. OZ needed a win to hang in the race, and their first players had lost. Stork is a solid player, but his PvZ has never been good enough to beat Jaedong straight-up. Jaedong epically failed and decided to cheese with lings. If he had just won this game, there's a good chance it would be OZ waiting for T1 (or CJ!) at the top, rather than the other way around.
On August 07 2009 07:40 ghostWriter wrote:If it were miracle or baby dropping games to these players, I would expect them to lose and if they lost, I wouldn't hold it against them. But it's FLASH! Flash is a top 3 or 4 player and for him to lose like that means he didn't live up to the standards that he himself set.
Which standard is apparently perfection? Because losing *a* game in your weakest (63%) matchup, and another game to a perfect DT drop on the same day is totally something that should never happen to a top five player and is cause for instant vilification.
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Woah, this is the first time SC2GG has had the better, more reasonable top 10.
On August 07 2009 09:24 TwoToneTerran wrote: You want to criticize Flash for not throwing down when the stakes were the highest for proleague? You don't know a damn thing about Flash, or the stakes he's played against. You don't know a thing about what kept KT, the team as old and loved as SKT1, alive this season. You don't even grasp how much Flash has to deal with to accomplish what he does.
Also this guy rules!
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
On August 07 2009 09:24 TwoToneTerran wrote: I'm starting to be a more indignant, less caps lock-y MrHoon. :x NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT! <3
yay I'm not alone anymore! I remember when Scara and I were the only Flash fans on this website lol.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On August 07 2009 11:41 Orbifold wrote:Woah, this is the first time SC2GG has had the better, more reasonable top 10. Show nested quote +On August 07 2009 09:24 TwoToneTerran wrote: You want to criticize Flash for not throwing down when the stakes were the highest for proleague? You don't know a damn thing about Flash, or the stakes he's played against. You don't know a thing about what kept KT, the team as old and loved as SKT1, alive this season. You don't even grasp how much Flash has to deal with to accomplish what he does.
Also this guy rules! T3 (I always do that to people) is the wiliest debater about these power ranks, waaay back at the beginning, he posted a nice long reflection about Flash that was conciliatory, but just enough to plant a seed of doubt. That began the whole argument in earnest, after which he's slowly pushed the argument farther and farther along. It's actually pretty interesting to read/watch.
I remember a couple months back when I argued with him about whether Flash or fantasy was better. He did thFlash or fantasy was better/ He did the exact same thing.
It's like a terran push...
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On August 07 2009 12:06 MrHoon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2009 09:24 TwoToneTerran wrote: I'm starting to be a more indignant, less caps lock-y MrHoon. :x NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT! <3 yay I'm not alone anymore! I remember when Scara and I were the only Flash fans on this website lol. And the arguments would be over whether Flash or Jaedong was better. Now it's Bisu, and there's no MrHoon equivalent.
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On August 07 2009 13:51 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2009 12:06 MrHoon wrote:On August 07 2009 09:24 TwoToneTerran wrote: I'm starting to be a more indignant, less caps lock-y MrHoon. :x NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT! <3 yay I'm not alone anymore! I remember when Scara and I were the only Flash fans on this website lol. And the arguments would be over whether Flash or Jaedong was better. Now it's Bisu, and there's no MrHoon equivalent.
Well said, there's no one who can match MrHoon. He has counterparts, sure, but no equals...
BECAUSE HE'S NOT BELLIGERENT OR SNIDE AAAAAARGHARHGHGHGH
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 07 2009 09:24 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2009 08:47 ghostWriter wrote: Obviously because a player of his caliber should have won all those games anyway. And what games are you even talking about? The games he didn't win in OSL or the games in MSL? Because the games in Gom really weren't that impressive and his wins were all against lesser players. That day in the proleague was the most important day and extremely relevant. In this past month, Flash has accomplished very little relatively. Gom is the least prestigious tournament for a reason, although he has been doing well. Um no, I'm talking about his entire sickening proleague run. His winner's league run. All the unbelievably clutch games he won in proleague. Do you know why the STX match was the game that gave KT a shot at playoffs? Because KT had just recently beat Khan, which closed the gap significantly. Khan vs KT was undeniably the highest stake game for KT to win because it, unlike the STX game, was worth 2 points in the race for KT and Khan. Losing to STX would've only put them one point behind. Now please, go remember that match up. Khan was playing what looked like their B Team (we would later realize that those guys had some serious game, massively supporting Khan past STX and against CJ, but this is retrospective so I'll get back to the topic). Flash took his win against Yoon in demanding fashion, setting the tone for KT to sweep the series. 815 delivered, netting KT's second win with his reliable ZvZ, and, at the very least, got Flash into the ace match. Then, Luxury continues his fail streak and Violet chokes against Great. I'm going to remind you that this -- not STX -- was the real decider for KT even having a shot at playoffs. So now, it's the atypical KT story. Flash destroys someone, another random KT schnub wins his good match up, and the rest of KT fails, regardless of their MASSIVE star power (so much facepalming at Luxury and Violet). Now comes time for ace. Realize that Flash *is* KT's ace, no matter what silly ForGG shenanigans they show, whenever KT sends Flash, Flash was ready and practiced for this game. Khan's last encounter with KT ended with both Stork and Jangbi taking Flash down, so everyone (and I'm assuming even Flash) figured one of the dragons, neither of which had to play that day, would be practiced and fresh to snipe the hell out of Flash with either of the two pest PvTs of all times. Then FBH comes out. FBH was a damn shock, but a smart choice. Flash had to prepare extra for a protoss in that ace match because of the double threat, but FBH, too, was completely fresh and, say what you will about his bad TvZ lately and perpetually bad TvP, FBH is still a beast TvTer on a 7 game winning streak before this game. I'm not sure if you saw that match -- I'm hoping you did -- because it was amazing. FBH completely crippled Flash early on with a daring and precise tank push + scan, completely obliterating 80% of Flash's standing army and taking almost no losses in the process. Any other terran would've been done at that point. Fantasy, Leta, Canata, Skyhigh? There's no way any of them could make up that massive disadvantage that early, and should just very well have typed out GG. Hell, I, an insane Flash fan (atleast when I'm watching his games), thought he should've just GG'd right there because there's no way you win after losing not only the vast majority of your tanks, but your map presence and all the SCV's he lost in the follow up push to defend. The rest of the game was fucking magic. No one jokes when they say Flash is the best TvTer. The only person with a match up honestly better than Flash's TvT is Jaedong's ZvZ. Flash, at a disadvantage a hair's breadth from being a loss, in the most important single game of KT's proleague, and probably of Flash's life, started calculating. FBH is not dumb, and did not suicidally push his army into Flash's airtight defense to try to steal an early win. He compounded his advantage and completely dominated most of the map, building a ridiculous economy and covering 2/3rds of the map in turrets. Flash, calmly and cleanly, began to dissect FBH's control. Nearly every head on fight from that point on favored Flash. His drop ship play and map control was amazing -- narrowly dodging nearly every turret FBH placed through tight areas (usually the bridges) to harass and take control of the few expos FBH couldn't easily protect. His dropship play was phenominal. He didn't play a perfect game, though. He made a few mistakes -- losing dropships here and there, letting FBH's tanks sneak a few free tank kills, taking some mine shots he shouldn't, etc. But Flash played what I think, and what he said was the best game of his life. I'm not sure if that sunk in for you, because it instantly hit me as a dedicated Flash fan. Flash has played many, many amazing games. Flash is the only man who stood up to the Dragons during their absolute peak, and not only matched them, but denied their leader, the best PvTer Stork, 2 titles (GSI, OSL) in absolutely stunning games, and taking out Bisu for good measure in the OSL. Flash is the man who stood toe to toe with Jaedong in Tyrant mode(Go back to when Flash was #1 in the PR for a recap), trading blows evenly with what many have called the closest thing to a perfect starcraft player there is. Flash, even after all these accomplishments and all these great games, still said that his personal best was his play vs FBH, in the proleague, in the match that was the ultimate do or die for KT not only to have a chance to get to playoffs, but to even have a chance to tie Khan for the spot. The highest stakes for KT, period. You want to criticize Flash for not throwing down when the stakes were the highest for proleague? You don't know a damn thing about Flash, or the stakes he's played against. You don't know a thing about what kept KT, the team as old and loved as SKT1, alive this season. You don't even grasp how much Flash has to deal with to accomplish what he does. This isn't his best month, not by a long shot, but that's not even the discussion here. You want to blame Flash for KT's 7th place because he couldn't win when the chips were down? That's downright despicable. edit: haha I keep making these wall of text Flash posts but man do people keep ragging on him for all the wrong reasons. Like I'm not even the kind of guy who defended Flash when he got destroyed by Yarnc and Jaedong and other zergs, not my style to fight a hopeless battle, but this "Flash did so bad in proleague when it was so important!!!" posting is so off base it's ridiculous. I'm starting to be a more indignant, less caps lock-y MrHoon. :x This captures everything I feel about Flash so poignantly... its like an epic poem.
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My Oz fanboyism won't let this small point go in that nested quote. HiyA did just as good (better recordwise, worse vs Bisu) as Flash vs the six Dragons during the Protoss Golden Age. I guess the Taek Bang era is over, but the Six Dragons moniker seems to have stuck.
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But that's when Hiya was.....you know, good.
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United States11390 Posts
On August 07 2009 15:28 EvoChamber wrote: But that's when Hiya was.....you know, good. Protoss still had nightmares about Magikarps in their sleep then.
Stork: "....No, not the splash attack. Anything but that."
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On August 07 2009 12:28 tree.hugger wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2009 11:41 Orbifold wrote:Woah, this is the first time SC2GG has had the better, more reasonable top 10. On August 07 2009 09:24 TwoToneTerran wrote: You want to criticize Flash for not throwing down when the stakes were the highest for proleague? You don't know a damn thing about Flash, or the stakes he's played against. You don't know a thing about what kept KT, the team as old and loved as SKT1, alive this season. You don't even grasp how much Flash has to deal with to accomplish what he does.
Also this guy rules! T3 (I always do that to people) is the wiliest debater about these power ranks, waaay back at the beginning, he posted a nice long reflection about Flash that was conciliatory, but just enough to plant a seed of doubt. That began the whole argument in earnest, after which he's slowly pushed the argument farther and farther along. It's actually pretty interesting to read/watch. I remember a couple months back when I argued with him about whether Flash or fantasy was better. He did th Flash or fantasy was better/ He did the exact same thing. It's like a terran push...
Haha, I'm not sure whether to take this as a compliment or not! Just try to remember I'm not even arguing for Flash to be on the PR, I'm arguing for the sake of the respect Flash should have.
On August 07 2009 12:06 MrHoon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2009 09:24 TwoToneTerran wrote: I'm starting to be a more indignant, less caps lock-y MrHoon. :x NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT! <3 yay I'm not alone anymore! I remember when Scara and I were the only Flash fans on this website lol.
Haha I was still lurking back in the cheddar terran days. I kind of miss his cheesing. =)
On August 07 2009 14:45 Avidkeystamper wrote: My Oz fanboyism won't let this small point go in that nested quote. HiyA did just as good (better recordwise, worse vs Bisu) as Flash vs the six Dragons during the Protoss Golden Age. I guess the Taek Bang era is over, but the Six Dragons moniker seems to have stuck.
Oh no, don't get me wrong here. Hiya tore himself up some dragons, but that came at kind of the tail end of Taekbang, rather than right in the middle, back when Jaedong was slumping, as opposed to later around the winner's league time when Hiya really blossomed.
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Very well said TwoToneTerran!
On August 07 2009 12:06 MrHoon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2009 09:24 TwoToneTerran wrote: I'm starting to be a more indignant, less caps lock-y MrHoon. :x NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT! <3 yay I'm not alone anymore! I remember when Scara and I were the only Flash fans on this website lol.
You are not alone! I just don't have the stamina needed to constantly argue with Flash haters...
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khan was only +3 kt was +1
Your attempt to justify Flash is admirable. I love Flash as well and I couldn't believe my eyes when he started coming back against firebathero. When his army surrounded those bcs at the top left expo, I was like HOLY SHIT HOLY SHIT!!! It doesn't change the fact that those games were played in June.
I know what he's done over the year in proleague and for the terran race. I watch all Terran games and most proleague games, but this is reflected in his kespa ranking. power rank is mostly for the past month and his past month does not reflect the greatness that should be Flash. The discussion IS about the past month because that's what the power rank is about. And the kt vs stx game was played in July and all flash did during the year, including the khan games, was nullified in that one bad series. This month, flash lost to people he shouldn't have lost to and only beat those he is supposed to beat, but did not dominate like he should have. His play looked very shaky at times.
I feel that jwd made the right choices and that all the players on the power rank had a better month than flash (except the sktt1 players but it's not their fault that they had no games to play and there was nothing to suggest that they fell off)
Jaedong's game against stork was undeniably bad, but beating canata in a close series, absolutely dominating zero and beating effort twice to reestablish his dominance in zvz (effort who was at 70% zvz before losing to calm and jaedong and is still at a very impressive 63%) has shown that he is undeniably the best player in the world. The difference between jaedong and flash is that when it counted the most, jaedong delivered and looked dominant. There is no question that jaedong is the best player right now, although flash's top 3 status looks vulnerable, today's proleague spoiler here + Show Spoiler +especially considering fantasy's game against jaedong today.
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NOT THE POINT. It doesn't matter what month it is -- you weren't arguing for shit directly relevant to the PR either, as STX vs KT wasn't in this PR's jurisdiction. You're arguing that it's Flash's fault that KT isn't in playoffs, because Flash wasn't clutch enough, and that's where the problem lies, got it?
And no, Power Ranks are not specifically for one month's time, they cover everything that happened since the last PR. check Flash's fifth place post from last PR and in the first couple of sentences JWD points out the STX match. So, guess what? The STX match has nothing to do with the PR, and therefore your nonsensical Flash-bash has nothing to do with this PR. Guess what else? My defense of Flash is not because of the PR. It's because of your outlandish accusations against him.
There's a reason like 10 people have come up to contest your crazy arguments and even more have come to support them -- Because you're making no sense and bashing Flash for the wrong reasons, whether you're a fan of him or not. If MrHoon himself was saying the crap you were, I'd take it to him just as hard, so don't think saying "I'm a flash fan too!!!" is some kind of vilification.
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It was just another justification of why flash doesn't belong in this month's power rank. I've already said it isn't important as his failure to advance in the osl or msl. I didn't mean that the power ranks are only for this month, but that they reflect a player's ability and results with the most emphasis on the past month. Can you really explain his games from this past month and make a real argument as to how he performed better than anyone on the power rank or are you just going to keep harping about his past performance? His loss to stx is totally relevant, albeit indirectly, because it's one of the reasons why ktf isn't in the postseason, which is the most important tournament in July/august.
even focusing on just his 6-2 record, besides his bbs against effort, his wins and losses were against players who aren't even the best zergs on their team, forget being the best players on their teams and he didn't look as dominant as a player like him should be.
I just said that I'm a flash fan because it's true and because you keep trying to brand me as a flash hater, which I'm not. I'm just being as impartial as I can right now, as opposed to your ktf fanboyism. Flash simply doesn't deserve a place on the rank.
vilification - 2 dictionary results vil⋅i⋅fy /ˈvɪləˌfaɪ/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [vil-uh-fahy] Show IPA Use vilification in a Sentence –verb (used with object), -fied, -fy⋅ing. 1. to speak ill of; defame; slander. 2. Obsolete. to make vile.
vindication - 3 dictionary results vin⋅di⋅ca⋅tion /ˌvɪndɪˈkeɪʃən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [vin-di-key-shuhn] Show IPA Use vindication in a Sentence –noun 1. the act of vindicating. 2. the state of being vindicated. 3. defense; excuse; justification: Poverty was a vindication for his thievery.
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And here you go, right back to the rank, and right back to the STX nonsense.
Atleast we can always call someone a fanboy instead of being reasonable.
I've already said I'm not arguing for Flash to be on the rank. Do you get this? Do you understand this? It's not worth continuing if you can't grasp this one point.
Also I never called you a Flash hater. I said you bashed him, disrespected his accomplishments, et al, but I recognized that you were a Flash fan at the end of my post, even if I don't get how a fan could put up such reasonless and cherrypicked arguments that only people looking to discredit Flash would even consider.
Good job with the dictionary quotes, I'm sure you've never mistaken two words before in your life. Woot.
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If you don't think flash deserves to be on the rank, then why are you arguing in the power rank thread? I'm not trying to discredit him, I'm just explaining to all of those that think he should be on the rank that he doesn't deserve it and mentioning all the relevant games as evidence.
I wasn't making fun of you for making a mistake, everyone makes mistakes. I was simply pointing it out so you could learn.
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