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+ Show Spoiler +In light of the recent MSL games between Bisu and Iris, I must reiterate my claim that Bisu is not deserving of his rank in this list if he deserves to grace it at all. I guess that's why it is last month's PR. After T1 loses the PL finals, I hope you have the good sense to not include him at all.
EDIT: Spoilers
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You can't just put Flash on the PR because if he was playing PL he would've won. That's almost what you're suggesting JWD do.
Never said that, straw man argument, no need to reply. You're calling GOM absolutely worthless, I'm saying it's worth something. If it's worthless, why does Tadzio even bother writing his news reports?
But your attacks on Canata are totally unwarrented.
Canata has not shown any kind of "spark" as a progamer for quite some time. Even when his play is effective as it was in the MSL/OSL ro16, it's economy-based, uninspired and uninspiring. It's oov with a vasectomy. When I say special skills, I'm clearly not talking about them with regards to you or me or even Idra and ret, but with regards to the best progamers, the people that populate the power rank. Canata has a past reaching back four or five years, but it's one of disappointed hopes. Two months ago he was boring but produced results in two leagues, and so he deserved his PR ranking. Last month he lost in both leagues. Soon he'll be over the hill. I don't like him and I don't dislike him. I do dislike his rise in the most recent PR, which is unwarranted.
If nobody can seriously disagree with it (they can, obviously) then why are you disagreeing?
I'm not. I'm saying the reasons Bisu stays where he is should be applied to Flash, and that he should also be on the PR, and that the fact that Flash isn't on the PR is indicative of a general problem with the way these PRs are written.
The last three PRs have been very well received.
Yes, they have been well received, and there's nothing bad about them. When the number of games and contestants for the league titles drop to the size they are now, though, the weaknesses in JWD's method start to show. Calm is at #4 this month because he's beat Effort, and their ace match failures in PL supposedly even out. Nevertheless, I believe that a strong majority of TL would agree that Effort is not just the better player right now, but the one with the stronger foundation and the brighter future. By comparison, by.hero made the OSL semis last season while Steve was still writing and only reached #8 on the PR.
I'm not entirely sure what prompted this, it seems you're not a big Canata fan, but it's essentially a argument constructed of flimsy details upon a shaky foundation. JWD is doing a fine job.
There's been something off about JWD's power ranks (not so much the placements as the thinking behind them) since he started composing them. I'm sure I wasn't the only one who felt this way, or the only one who couldn't figure out exactly what was so bugging about them. It's only when the leagues reach this point that the flaws in his system could become so apparent that they could be named. JWD's power ranks will be accurate in the early and mid-season and misleading in the late season, because his method places far too much emphasis on the month at hand and too little emphasis on past record (long-term) and future potential. My argument takes a while to read. The style is legal, almost constipated; I apologize. But it isn't unclear; the details I cite are definite, and the pattern that they form is real. If you still can't understand what I'm saying, then the problem is with you, not me.
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Gom isn't worthless, but with many of the best players not even participating in it and the players that are in it have other, more important responsibilities, winning it doesn't mean as much. Effort said himself that he didn't practice for Gom and was a bit mad that Iris did.
Your points about Canata make no sense, you must have missed most of his last few games, especially against Piano on Byzantium 3 and against Jaedong on Outsider, game 1
Flash is only in one league and the least important one at that. He didn't make it for a reason and his "wins" last month are very unimpressive. He lost to calm and kal right before the previous pl went up and he looked terrible. He lost to kwanro twice, bbsed Effort, beat thezerg (an sktt1 zerg lol) and 3-0ed july (who hasn't had proleague playtime in 2 months) in Gom, the only tournament he had to prepare for. He's not even in the OSL because of his poor performance and he didn't even qualify for proleague, although that was more of his team's fault.
The ranks are done every month, you don't need to use past performance or future expectations to place players (you can't say that someone will win definitively, how many people thought that Iris was going to win against Bisu? TLPD says 179 to the 1517 who voted for Bisu). Just because you have been a top 10 player doesn't mean you should be in the top 10 for power rank. It's about who did well in the last month and gives a nod in the direction of those who have been consistently good. If we wanted to see who has been consistently good for a long period of time, all you have to do is check the kespa rankings.
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On August 05 2009 05:36 ghostWriter wrote:Gom isn't worthless, but with many of the best players not even participating in it and the players that are in it have other, more important responsibilities, winning it doesn't mean as much. For example, Your points about Canata make no sense, you must have missed most of his last few games, especially against Piano on Byzantium 3 and against Jaedong on Outsider, game 1 Flash is only in one league and the least important one at that. He didn't make it for a reason and his "wins" last month are very unimpressive. He lost to calm and kal right before the previous pl went up and he looked terrible. He lost to kwanro twice, bbsed Effort, beat thezerg (an sktt1 zerg lol) and 3-0ed july (who hasn't had proleague playtime in 2 months) in Gom, the only tournament he had to prepare for. He's not even in the OSL because of his poor performance and he didn't even qualify for proleague, although that was more of his team's fault. The ranks are done every month, you don't need to use past performance or future expectations to place players (you can't say that someone will win definitively, how many people thought that Iris was going to win against Bisu? TLPD says 179 to the 1517 who voted for Bisu). Just because you have been a top 10 player doesn't mean you should be in the top 10 for power rank. It's about who did well in the last month and gives a nod in the direction of those who have been consistently good. If we wanted to see who has been consistently good for a long period of time, all you have to do is check the kespa rankings.
Flash was ranked fifth last month, went 6-1, beating this month's #5 in the process, and losing to no one who's in the rank. Bisu got to keep his spot because it was a dry month, Flash didn't, go figure.
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Russian Federation405 Posts
Totally agree with you EvoChamber!
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On August 05 2009 06:11 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2009 05:36 ghostWriter wrote:Gom isn't worthless, but with many of the best players not even participating in it and the players that are in it have other, more important responsibilities, winning it doesn't mean as much. For example, Your points about Canata make no sense, you must have missed most of his last few games, especially against Piano on Byzantium 3 and against Jaedong on Outsider, game 1 Flash is only in one league and the least important one at that. He didn't make it for a reason and his "wins" last month are very unimpressive. He lost to calm and kal right before the previous pl went up and he looked terrible. He lost to kwanro twice, bbsed Effort, beat thezerg (an sktt1 zerg lol) and 3-0ed july (who hasn't had proleague playtime in 2 months) in Gom, the only tournament he had to prepare for. He's not even in the OSL because of his poor performance and he didn't even qualify for proleague, although that was more of his team's fault. The ranks are done every month, you don't need to use past performance or future expectations to place players (you can't say that someone will win definitively, how many people thought that Iris was going to win against Bisu? TLPD says 179 to the 1517 who voted for Bisu). Just because you have been a top 10 player doesn't mean you should be in the top 10 for power rank. It's about who did well in the last month and gives a nod in the direction of those who have been consistently good. If we wanted to see who has been consistently good for a long period of time, all you have to do is check the kespa rankings. Flash was ranked fifth last month, went 6-1, beating this month's #5 in the process, and losing to no one who's in the rank. Bisu got to keep his spot because it was a dry month, Flash didn't, go figure.
Why do people not read? 6-1? Try 8-5 for the last month and if you want to do it from the last power rank, its 6-2 and numbers don't mean anything if you actually saw the games: He lost to calm and kal right before the previous pl went up and he looked terrible. He lost to kwanro twice, bbsed Effort, beat thezerg (an sktt1 zerg lol) and 3-0ed july (who hasn't had proleague playtime in 2 months) in Gom, the only tournament he had to prepare for. He's not in the proleague playoffs.
Bisu beat fantasy twice (name any other player who can do that besides Jaedong and maybe Effort) and lost to Iris (2fact+great micro) and Zero (this was not his best moment and Zero used queens really well). But as JWD already said, the reason why Bisu and Fantasy played so few games is because his team is already in the grand finals (flash's team didn't even make the playoffs). Their lack of games is a testament to their skill, if they had to qualify for the grand finals, they probably would have most likely made it up there anyway.
Did you even see Flash's game against Yarnc (although this was at the end of June)? It was a travesty and not advancing in OSL because of a loss to Kwanro when Kwanro wasn't playing his best matchup and isn't even the best zerg on his team!
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On August 05 2009 06:25 ghostWriter wrote: Bisu beat fantasy twice (name any other player who can do that besides Jaedong and maybe Effort)
I think there are plenty of Zergs who could beat fantasy twice, and I'm sure Flash could as well. Probably no other Protoss, though.
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Flash went 6-2 in the time between the previous PR and the current one; all nine games were against Zerg. He made the finals of one individual league and had been eliminated from the other two. Bisu went 2-2, 2-1 against Terran and 0-1 against Zerg. He remained in the quarterfinals of one league at an 0-1 deficit. Bisu didn't have to play any PL games because his team had performed so well that they placed first in the PL regular season. Flash didn't have to play any PL games because his team had performed so terribly that they didn't make the PL playoffs. Flash was at 5 and dropped into purgatory. Bisu was at 3 and stayed there. Flash convincingly defeated one of the wiliest Zerg in the history of progaming, someone who, like him, had nothing but GOM to practice for. Bisu beat Fantasy straight up (brilliantly, one should add) in one game and cheesed him in another. In the next round of MSL he fell prey to an Iris 2fac that he knew was coming and still failed to overcome. In the OSL, Zero's forceful macro, combined with a genius queen ambush, took his destiny out of his own hands and put it into the pincers of go.go. Since Flash dropped from both leagues before the previous PR and JWD only judges on the basis of the month at hand, there's no explanation for dropping him out of the PR aside from a lapse in judgment or a double standard.
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On August 05 2009 06:25 ghostWriter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2009 06:11 TwoToneTerran wrote:On August 05 2009 05:36 ghostWriter wrote:Gom isn't worthless, but with many of the best players not even participating in it and the players that are in it have other, more important responsibilities, winning it doesn't mean as much. For example, Your points about Canata make no sense, you must have missed most of his last few games, especially against Piano on Byzantium 3 and against Jaedong on Outsider, game 1 Flash is only in one league and the least important one at that. He didn't make it for a reason and his "wins" last month are very unimpressive. He lost to calm and kal right before the previous pl went up and he looked terrible. He lost to kwanro twice, bbsed Effort, beat thezerg (an sktt1 zerg lol) and 3-0ed july (who hasn't had proleague playtime in 2 months) in Gom, the only tournament he had to prepare for. He's not even in the OSL because of his poor performance and he didn't even qualify for proleague, although that was more of his team's fault. The ranks are done every month, you don't need to use past performance or future expectations to place players (you can't say that someone will win definitively, how many people thought that Iris was going to win against Bisu? TLPD says 179 to the 1517 who voted for Bisu). Just because you have been a top 10 player doesn't mean you should be in the top 10 for power rank. It's about who did well in the last month and gives a nod in the direction of those who have been consistently good. If we wanted to see who has been consistently good for a long period of time, all you have to do is check the kespa rankings. Flash was ranked fifth last month, went 6-1, beating this month's #5 in the process, and losing to no one who's in the rank. Bisu got to keep his spot because it was a dry month, Flash didn't, go figure. Why do people not read? 6-1? Try 8-5 for the last month and if you want to do it from the last power rank, its 6-2 and numbers don't mean anything if you actually saw the games: He lost to calm and kal right before the previous pl went up and he looked terrible. He lost to kwanro twice, bbsed Effort, beat thezerg (an sktt1 zerg lol) and 3-0ed july (who hasn't had proleague playtime in 2 months) in Gom, the only tournament he had to prepare for. He's not in the proleague playoffs. Bisu beat fantasy twice (name any other player who can do that besides Jaedong and maybe Effort) and lost to Iris (2fact+great micro) and Zero (this was not his best moment and Zero used queens really well). But as JWD already said, the reason why Bisu and Fantasy played so few games is because his team is already in the grand finals (flash's team didn't even make the playoffs). Their lack of games is a testament to their skill, if they had to qualify for the grand finals, they probably would have most likely made it up there anyway. Did you even see Flash's game against Yarnc (although this was at the end of June)? It was a travesty and not advancing in OSL because of a loss to Kwanro when Kwanro wasn't playing his best matchup and isn't even the best zerg on his team!
Yeah, sure he lost to Kal and Calm in a bad fashion. But you know, Flash was playing incredible amount of games that month. Just look at Jaedong. Roughly same time he lost in terrible fashion to Stork and Light (to Stork 2 days earlier and to Light 1 day after Flash losses). Totally justified given how busy schedule those two had and how many games they had to play.
The only game that I was disappointed with Flash was the game on the Outsider against Kwanro.. But hell, Kwanro played really well in that one, props to him.
I've seen all the games of Flash. The problem with his performance was that he had this new build and didn't have enough time to work-out all the timings. I saw mech into bio used by other players recently with great success. And add to that the fact that he played 3 best ZvTers in the world.. This pretty much sums up his OSL run.
I think people really downplay GOM too much. Sure, competition wasn't the strongest but somehow Jaedong, Effort, Calm and others on this rank who participated couldn't cut it. If it was so easy why they are not in the finals. Add to that the fact that Flash didn't get a single defeat and you get the picture. It is so easy to lose a single game here or there; these are progamers and they all want to win. However, Flash made it to the finals with a clean record.
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On August 05 2009 06:49 EvoChamber wrote:Flash convincingly defeated one of the wiliest Zerg in the history of progaming, someone who, like him, had nothing but GOM to practice for. Flash defeated JulyZerg, who is bad, and Flash looked bad doing it. He kicked over a lot of B-teamers in GOM without dropping a game; kudos, but that's hardly a colossal feat.
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On August 05 2009 06:25 ghostWriter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2009 06:11 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash was ranked fifth last month, went 6-1, beating this month's #5 in the process, and losing to no one who's in the rank. Bisu got to keep his spot because it was a dry month, Flash didn't, go figure. Why do people not read? 6-1? Try 8-5 for the last month and if you want to do it from the last power rank, its 6-2 and numbers don't mean anything if you actually saw the games: He lost to calm and kal right before the previous pl went up and he looked terrible. He lost to kwanro twice, bbsed Effort, beat thezerg (an sktt1 zerg lol) and 3-0ed july (who hasn't had proleague playtime in 2 months) in Gom, the only tournament he had to prepare for. He's not in the proleague playoffs.
Flash went 6-2 since last PR. Bisu went 2-2 (the loss to Zero wasn't mentioned on last PR, so I'll count it in this period). Both players won some and lost some. Flash cheesed Effort, Bisu cheesed fantasy. Bisu had tougher competition and had a 50% winrate, Flash had easier competition and had a 75% winrate. This is how starcraft works. (Very fair of you to mention that GOM was the only tournament that Flash had to prepare for without mentioning that the same was true of July, btw.)
Bisu beat fantasy twice (name any other player who can do that besides Jaedong and maybe Effort) and lost to Iris (2fact+great micro) and Zero (this was not his best moment and Zero used queens really well).
Name a player who can beat fantasy... hmm... how about Flash? He's dismantled fantasy in every non-cheese TvT they've played. (This is meaningless because Flash and fantasy didn't actually play and I don't like to use imaginary games in my arguments --- but I don't like how you write off Flash. He has shown no reason for his TvT to be doubted, ever.)
But as JWD already said, the reason why Bisu and Fantasy played so few games is because his team is already in the grand finals (flash's team didn't even make the playoffs). Their lack of games is a testament to their skill, if they had to qualify for the grand finals, they probably would have most likely made it up there anyway.
Why should a team's performance affect individual placements in the PR? This isn't a team ranking. It shouldn't matter whether SKT are at the top or at rock bottom; all that matters is individual performance. Flash's team isn't in the playoffs because Flash's team is garbage.
Basically, in JWD's ranking, Bisu's and fantasy's absence from the playoffs is a mark in their favor, while Flash's absence is used as an excuse to leave him off. (Not directly --- but "Skyhigh won more PL playoff games than Flash played in July" is also true of Bisu and fantasy, and actually --- hey wait --- not true of Flash, who played 8 games and won six of them.) Bias much?
EDIT: Basically, JWD's claim about Skyhigh and Flash either shows that he wasn't paying attention when he made it, or that he literally counts out GOM entirely when he makes his ranking. How does that make sense?
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On August 05 2009 07:05 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2009 06:49 EvoChamber wrote:Flash convincingly defeated one of the wiliest Zerg in the history of progaming, someone who, like him, had nothing but GOM to practice for. Flash defeated JulyZerg, who is bad, and Flash looked bad doing it. He kicked over a lot of B-teamers in GOM without dropping a game; kudos, but that's hardly a colossal feat.
Even counting in the fact that Flash's opponents in GOM haven't been the crème de la crème, should his victories there somehow count against him?
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On August 05 2009 07:05 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2009 06:49 EvoChamber wrote:Flash convincingly defeated one of the wiliest Zerg in the history of progaming, someone who, like him, had nothing but GOM to practice for. Flash defeated JulyZerg, who is bad, and Flash looked bad doing it.
He looked a hell of a lot better than SkyHigh, who graces the current ranking and who lost to the same player in the same league. (And this was before the PL playoffs even started.)
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A 67.3% overall, 6-2 last month and 72% winning rate this year for Flash is unacceptable. He'll need to bump it up to 100% (dropping any game in his weakest [and by weakest, I mean 63% win rate] matchup is unacceptable) and also magically make the rest of KT into good players so his team can advance in PL if he's going to squeak by with #9 or #10 PR in the future and hang with the likes of type-b.
I've also decided to not bother watching the GOM finals (or any GOM games in the future), since we all know that $40,000 and a trip to play at Blizzcon is something that NO progamer actually cares the tiniest bit about, and people who win in GOM (Flash, Iris) should actually have that count AGAINST them, rather than for them. Iris should have been practicing for PL, and Flash should have been playing no games at all so he could be judged on hypothetical power like our friend at #3, Bisu. It all makes sense to me now.
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That is a beautiful post. You are a beautiful person.
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EvoChamber keeping the fight alive. Good stuff man.
And yeah seriously... for those saying "Flash only 3-0'ed July AND LOOKED BAD DOING IT" (wtf?), last time I checked, skyhigh LOST 2-1 to July in the same league. lol.
Honestly, it's not Flash's fault KT sucks ass and are not in the playoffs.
And for the guy who couldn't understand why Bisu would have more loses if he had more games, Bisu having more games implies his team being worse. If Bisu was on KT instead of Flash, and qualifying in as many leagues as Flash, you really think he would have done a better job taking KT to playoffs? Bisu is lucky he has another ace on his team (Fantasy) along with players that preform like BeSt and Canata. IN ADDITION, to a great coaching staff and team moral. His environment just gives him more chances to relax and preform well. KT's environment right now just seems awful -_-.
Regardless Flash still does extremely well and is a top 10 SC player.. seems like some people just don't understand that.
MSL spoiler... + Show Spoiler +Not to mention we are about to watch for all intents and purposes Flash 3-1 the player that just beat Bisu 3-2.
On August 05 2009 08:08 Hinanawi wrote: A 67.3% overall, 6-2 last month and 72% winning rate this year for Flash is unacceptable. He'll need to bump it up to 100% (dropping any game in his weakest [and by weakest, I mean 63% win rate] matchup is unacceptable) and also magically make the rest of KT into good players so his team can advance in PL if he's going to squeak by with #9 or #10 PR in the future and hang with the likes of type-b.
I've also decided to not bother watching the GOM finals (or any GOM games in the future), since we all know that $40,000 and a trip to play at Blizzcon is something that NO progamer actually cares the tiniest bit about, and people who win in GOM (Flash, Iris) should actually have that count AGAINST them, rather than for them. Iris should have been practicing for PL, and Flash should have been playing no games at all so he could be judged on hypothetical power like our friend at #3, Bisu. It all makes sense to me now.
EDIT for hilarious post. Haha. Type fucking B.
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On August 05 2009 08:08 Hinanawi wrote: A 67.3% overall, 6-2 last month and 72% winning rate this year for Flash is unacceptable. He'll need to bump it up to 100% (dropping any game in his weakest [and by weakest, I mean 63% win rate] matchup is unacceptable) and also magically make the rest of KT into good players so his team can advance in PL if he's going to squeak by with #9 or #10 PR in the future and hang with the likes of type-b.
I've also decided to not bother watching the GOM finals (or any GOM games in the future), since we all know that $40,000 and a trip to play at Blizzcon is something that NO progamer actually cares the tiniest bit about, and people who win in GOM (Flash, Iris) should actually have that count AGAINST them, rather than for them. Iris should have been practicing for PL, and Flash should have been playing no games at all so he could be judged on hypothetical power like our friend at #3, Bisu. It all makes sense to me now.
quality post alert
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Vasoline, no need to spoil in PR threads. It's understood that recent games will be talked about here.
Anyhow, while I kind of support the "You guys are idiots for thinking Flash did badly" committee, that last bit of your post, Vasoline, is two different match ups.
PvT is Bisu's weakest game and he put up a valiant series against an on fire Iris. On the other hand, TvT is Flash's best match up and even if he 3-1's Iris it's just not the same situation.
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On August 05 2009 08:08 Hinanawi wrote: A 67.3% overall, 6-2 last month and 72% winning rate this year for Flash is unacceptable. He'll need to bump it up to 100% (dropping any game in his weakest [and by weakest, I mean 63% win rate] matchup is unacceptable) and also magically make the rest of KT into good players so his team can advance in PL if he's going to squeak by with #9 or #10 PR in the future and hang with the likes of type-b.
I've also decided to not bother watching the GOM finals (or any GOM games in the future), since we all know that $40,000 and a trip to play at Blizzcon is something that NO progamer actually cares the tiniest bit about, and people who win in GOM (Flash, Iris) should actually have that count AGAINST them, rather than for them. Iris should have been practicing for PL, and Flash should have been playing no games at all so he could be judged on hypothetical power like our friend at #3, Bisu. It all makes sense to me now. Someone give this man a medal.
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