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On February 19 2012 07:01 KimJongChill wrote: A lot of you guys hate on shattered, but I just love that ledge against terran. I've won some games from the scouting potential that ledge gives me haha. Now I don't know about you, but I don't really like cloud, the third feels far away and really out there, where subsequent expansions feel soo far away? I guess there is good possibility for counterattacks. I think entombed is tough to play against turtling t/p players, but for some reason I have a pretty decent win rate on that map. I'm not sure, but something about the map is good for zerg I think.
Cloud is nice because it's tough for an FFE protoss to push up to your third, since there's a second ramp you can use to flank, as they are often only prepared to FF the ramp and not expecting a flank. The twin ramps make it so that there's always a way to flank or counter, whether vP or vT, and the two towers are in perfect spots, you'll see them move out almost as soon as they move outside their wall (so you have plenty of time to set up an ambush, you can run in while tanks are unsieged, etc.). Plus, if you put creep tumors on the edge of the main, the creep can spread to the third in three or four tumors. And then your fourth is just down the ramp from your third.
Also, against a terran who puts a planetary at their third, it's easy to swing banelings in from the outside (not the ramp, the lateral open space) and into the mineral line. Works wonders. Beware of tanks on the cliff of the main, though.
Don't forget that cloud has a cliff area above the natural, spotting a forge upgrading and 4+ zeals can be a big tell.
Cloud is my favorite map at the moment.
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i have only voted Shattered because of the third not accesible
i fucking love the mappool, just compare it to the one we had like 6 months ago.
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Antiga and metal, reduces the chance of zvz, and the maps are a bit to easy for zerg anyway. Like the map pool for zerg, but i hope more maps will go the korhal compound giving terran a few more positions.
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well.. I veto Cloud Kingdom, reason is cuz I get crushed by all the force fields from toss due to all the chokes etc. Open area is basically non-existance on that map : (
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really, i dont like to veto tournaments map, tha's why i think to veto shatterd temple isnt good
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One question about Shakuras: why do you think it's a good ZvP map? ZvP-wise, it's always against FFE, and I feel like it's an inverted version of TDA, in that the third is easy to take, but hard to hold. A solid chunk of the time, I lose the third because I'm trying to keep up with FFE econ and underestimate how much he's sending to the third. But if I overmake units to hold off a few zeal/stalker, I end up behind and die to 5gate blink or 7 gate. My only solution thus far is go two-base muta with a macro hatch. Still, even then, it's so easy for P to sneak a pylon near the fourth and warp zealots into the third, or put cannons on the high ground near the minerals of the third.
I don't think the third is hard to hold - there is a huge open area right in front of the natural that you should be engaging at, and then there is a choke to it that isn't too small, but can take advantage of spines. So you put a few spines at top of third, and engage him right when he's at bottom of ramp with rest of army. The third isn't impossible to hold, and it also isn't free.
The first few zealots or stalkers isn't much, you should always be able to hold it off with a single spine or some lings made when his units are halfway across the map.
If you are having trouble with gateway all-ins, make a thread about it. They are pretty hard to deal with, I still have trouble with 7 gate blink all-ins. I still haven't ever seen a pro vod of a zerg holding it when going fast third.
You should always be checking to make sure a probe isn't in that fourth and putting in a pylon. Unlike, say, cloud kingdom, ST, or Metal, it's quite hard to sneak a probe on Shakuras, You just make 4 lings at start, send 2 at watch towers, then the other 2 to clear our your third and fourth to make sure no hidden probe. If you watch pro zergs play, they follow a simple anti-probe route on that map and Toss can't ever hide probes.
Don't forget that cloud has a cliff area above the natural, spotting a forge upgrading and 4+ zeals can be a big tell.
Where?
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The map pool right now is honestly awful for zerg. I hadn't vetoed any, because I really wanted to give the community made maps a chance, but its literally impossible to beat a protoss on either of the maps (or at all,lol). So, I'm vetoing Cloud Kingdom, Korhal Compound for that reason, they are just horrible. I guess shattered is my 3rd veto because of the rocks.
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On February 19 2012 07:48 6xFPCs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 07:01 KimJongChill wrote: A lot of you guys hate on shattered, but I just love that ledge against terran. I've won some games from the scouting potential that ledge gives me haha. Now I don't know about you, but I don't really like cloud, the third feels far away and really out there, where subsequent expansions feel soo far away? I guess there is good possibility for counterattacks. I think entombed is tough to play against turtling t/p players, but for some reason I have a pretty decent win rate on that map. I'm not sure, but something about the map is good for zerg I think. Cloud is nice because it's tough for an FFE protoss to push up to your third, since there's a second ramp you can use to flank, as they are often only prepared to FF the ramp and not expecting a flank. The twin ramps make it so that there's always a way to flank or counter, whether vP or vT, and the two towers are in perfect spots, you'll see them move out almost as soon as they move outside their wall (so you have plenty of time to set up an ambush, you can run in while tanks are unsieged, etc.). Plus, if you put creep tumors on the edge of the main, the creep can spread to the third in three or four tumors. And then your fourth is just down the ramp from your third. Also, against a terran who puts a planetary at their third, it's easy to swing banelings in from the outside (not the ramp, the lateral open space) and into the mineral line. Works wonders. Beware of tanks on the cliff of the main, though. Don't forget that cloud has a cliff area above the natural, spotting a forge upgrading and 4+ zeals can be a big tell. Cloud is my favorite map at the moment.
Wow, never looked at it that way, guess I should reconsider playing on it. Heard there's no space shark though >:c
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there is a space shark dude. and its legit as hell
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I have a question about the new maps:
Where do you send the overlords? I've lost so many games on Korhal because my first 2 overlords get killed wandering through the sides of the map, and then I can't scout shit and I have no idea what's going on and lose. Can't even tell if T expanded.
Is there like any cliff spot, like on Belshir or TDA where you can put an overlord on some tiny 1x1 space that the opponent can't see?
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On February 16 2012 01:16 Pteppic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 00:48 OptIn wrote: I found if i use Veto i always play against Z hmmm.... reason everyone vetos the same thing per each race meaning you have less chance of playing aginst a diferent race. I usually just learn the maps and what i can do on them and what i cant rather than just saying i cant play on it. Although if all your into is winning by making things easier go for it That's not true. The map on which you play is determined after your opp. has been found, your map vetoes has zero impact on the matchups you will play on ladder!
Do you have a source for this? It would make a lot of sense of it was like this.
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PvZ shattered temple just rapes your nuts, plus mutas are not as strong on that map AS other maps. Which also kinda affects TvZ. Also lings are not as strong on a smaller map like that(If you catch them out in the open its a different story) but the mobility is not as effective. Korh ive never played but just looks gross and this season I dont actually have a third veto yet. But I am just coming off a pretty long sc2 break so that'll probably change soon.
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On February 19 2012 11:39 Belial88 wrote: I have a question about the new maps:
Where do you send the overlords? I've lost so many games on Korhal because my first 2 overlords get killed wandering through the sides of the map, and then I can't scout shit and I have no idea what's going on and lose. Can't even tell if T expanded.
Is there like any cliff spot, like on Belshir or TDA where you can put an overlord on some tiny 1x1 space that the opponent can't see?
There are spots- try the cliff between the natural and third, the cliff between the XelNaga and the natural, and the cliff outside the fourth base. Other than that, you'll just have to rely on some map control to spread overlords throughout the map if you want vision.
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wow , I don't veto shattered temple , I really like it for my Z even vs T (zvp is kind of uber good cause of gold and large muta harras area 'n stuff) I have on veto shakuras and taldarim atm from last season , opened this to find the 3rd map since that 2 players desert shitty map is out now but kind of already made my mind for cloud kingdom(stupid 2 players map bad for z vs t) or maybe entombed valley(the gsl version of it has suplay at ramp and no close orizontal spawns wich make it a lot more playable but blizzard is too stupid to make something like that)
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I've found that the only way to play ZvP on Cloud Kingdom is muta/ling with a big old base trade at the end. The map is really cool for flanks in ZvT, but it falls apart in ZvP, where flanks don't do shit when they've got FF+Collosus.
Anyway, as for me, I've got
Shakuras Plateau - impossible to break terran late-game, and very difficult to hold more than 4 bases for zerg. Shattered Temple - Very difficult to play against protoss on this map due to the viability of FFE and difficulty of 3 base. Entombed Valley - impossible to hold 3-base vs toss gateway pushes. You can take a third, but good luck defending it.
I must be the only one who liked Arid Plateau. Nice third base, pretty open in the middle. Hellion harass was difficult, but I was handling it alright with Blade's roach opener. Toss could FFE if they dared, but it was difficult, and rush distance was pretty long.
Also, the zergs that T-down metalopolis blow my mind. That's like, the best map for zerg in the pool! Easy 3-base, open nat, easy scouting to the main, ok rush distances, pretty open. Only bad part is the siege-able gold, which isn't entirely game-breaking.
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There are spots- try the cliff between the natural and third, the cliff between the XelNaga and the natural, and the cliff outside the fourth base. Other than that, you'll just have to rely on some map control to spread overlords throughout the map if you want vision.
Which map are you referring to?
I must be the only one who liked Arid Plateau. Nice third base, pretty open in the middle. Hellion harass was difficult, but I was handling it alright with Blade's roach opener. Toss could FFE if they dared, but it was difficult, and rush distance was pretty long.
I liked it. Just use 3 spines on Arid instead of 2.
Also, the zergs that T-down metalopolis blow my mind. That's like, the best map for zerg in the pool! Easy 3-base, open nat, easy scouting to the main, ok rush distances, pretty open. Only bad part is the siege-able gold, which isn't entirely game-breaking.
ZvT on that map is a pain due to gold, but hopefully mule nerf fixed that. I feel it's the only map where a zerg could love it - in ZvP, any map with easy gold vs ffe is broken, and against gateway openings it's still a bit zerg favored due to how open the third is, and how easy it is for zerg to take their third while hard for toss.
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On February 19 2012 08:54 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +One question about Shakuras: why do you think it's a good ZvP map? ZvP-wise, it's always against FFE, and I feel like it's an inverted version of TDA, in that the third is easy to take, but hard to hold. A solid chunk of the time, I lose the third because I'm trying to keep up with FFE econ and underestimate how much he's sending to the third. But if I overmake units to hold off a few zeal/stalker, I end up behind and die to 5gate blink or 7 gate. My only solution thus far is go two-base muta with a macro hatch. Still, even then, it's so easy for P to sneak a pylon near the fourth and warp zealots into the third, or put cannons on the high ground near the minerals of the third. I don't think the third is hard to hold - there is a huge open area right in front of the natural that you should be engaging at, and then there is a choke to it that isn't too small, but can take advantage of spines. So you put a few spines at top of third, and engage him right when he's at bottom of ramp with rest of army. The third isn't impossible to hold, and it also isn't free. The first few zealots or stalkers isn't much, you should always be able to hold it off with a single spine or some lings made when his units are halfway across the map. If you are having trouble with gateway all-ins, make a thread about it. They are pretty hard to deal with, I still have trouble with 7 gate blink all-ins. I still haven't ever seen a pro vod of a zerg holding it when going fast third. You should always be checking to make sure a probe isn't in that fourth and putting in a pylon. Unlike, say, cloud kingdom, ST, or Metal, it's quite hard to sneak a probe on Shakuras, You just make 4 lings at start, send 2 at watch towers, then the other 2 to clear our your third and fourth to make sure no hidden probe. If you watch pro zergs play, they follow a simple anti-probe route on that map and Toss can't ever hide probes. Show nested quote +Don't forget that cloud has a cliff area above the natural, spotting a forge upgrading and 4+ zeals can be a big tell. Where?
Thanks for the specific advice on Shakuras. I'll try some of the suggestions; I definitely feel I should be able to hold, I just haven't managed to do it yet. If it persists, I might make a thread, but I'll also wait until I try some of your advice. Most of my frustration is due to misreads and the difficulty of scouting exactly what P is doing. They have a lot of very viable options; we haven't even touched on 1/2 stargate play, which also seems popular.
I definitely feel like I haven't seen a pro zerg hold anything blink stalker-based in a while.
Regarding Cloud, the cliffs are the doodad-filled things above the 7 o'clock natural and below the 2 o'clock natural. In case that's not specific enough, here's a picture of Cloud with two overlords pasted on:
TL has taught me that all images need an italicized caption.
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high master zerg here, i downvoted entombed valley, shakuras and taldarim cause i fkn hate those maps!
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On February 19 2012 16:46 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +There are spots- try the cliff between the natural and third, the cliff between the XelNaga and the natural, and the cliff outside the fourth base. Other than that, you'll just have to rely on some map control to spread overlords throughout the map if you want vision. Which map are you referring to?
Sounds like Korhal. There's a space on the outside of the natural ("between the natural and third") that's raised, similar to Cloud. Likewise, there're some small raised areas around the map, barely large enough for an overlord to hide atop. I think, anyway, I don't risk leaving overlords on those things, where a single medivac with the army means no more overlord.
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On February 19 2012 11:08 KimJongChill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 07:48 6xFPCs wrote:On February 19 2012 07:01 KimJongChill wrote: A lot of you guys hate on shattered, but I just love that ledge against terran. I've won some games from the scouting potential that ledge gives me haha. Now I don't know about you, but I don't really like cloud, the third feels far away and really out there, where subsequent expansions feel soo far away? I guess there is good possibility for counterattacks. I think entombed is tough to play against turtling t/p players, but for some reason I have a pretty decent win rate on that map. I'm not sure, but something about the map is good for zerg I think. Cloud is nice because it's tough for an FFE protoss to push up to your third, since there's a second ramp you can use to flank, as they are often only prepared to FF the ramp and not expecting a flank. The twin ramps make it so that there's always a way to flank or counter, whether vP or vT, and the two towers are in perfect spots, you'll see them move out almost as soon as they move outside their wall (so you have plenty of time to set up an ambush, you can run in while tanks are unsieged, etc.). Plus, if you put creep tumors on the edge of the main, the creep can spread to the third in three or four tumors. And then your fourth is just down the ramp from your third. Also, against a terran who puts a planetary at their third, it's easy to swing banelings in from the outside (not the ramp, the lateral open space) and into the mineral line. Works wonders. Beware of tanks on the cliff of the main, though. Don't forget that cloud has a cliff area above the natural, spotting a forge upgrading and 4+ zeals can be a big tell. Cloud is my favorite map at the moment. Wow, never looked at it that way, guess I should reconsider playing on it. Heard there's no space shark though >:c
The space shark is really distracting to me, actually. I can see why someone might want to remove it.
I want to add that on Cloud, you have to make sure to engage BEFORE toss gets onto the ramp, otherwise you risk them FFing themselves in on the ramp (takes about 8 FF, I think). If you hit them as they move towards the ramp, their entire rear is open. I prefer to hold the ramp with a handful of roaches and flank with lings; lings are fast, roaches hold their lines better, and those juicy, juicy immortals are generally in the back of the army, while zealots are in front. Then reinforce pure ling: if they warp in non-zealots, they lose them, and if they warp in zealots, it's tough for them to push up the ramp.
Oh, and toss tend to take their third as they push out (this is still talking FFE to 5-6 gate on Cloud), so rallying six morphing lings to the third can result in an uncanceled nexus kill. Gosh, I'm starting to realize why people get so angry at me on ladder.
I think I'm 7-1 on Cloud, with the one loss to a another zerg.
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