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Most of my frustration is due to misreads and the difficulty of scouting exactly what P is doing. They have a lot of very viable options; we haven't even touched on 1/2 stargate play, which also seems popular.
The most important thing to do when going fast third is sending 1 overlord by their gas, and 2 overlords by their main, ready to sac at 7:00. It's absolutely critical.
From there, you can basically read 99% of what toss is doing based on how many gas he takes, and if his base is empty or full (ie full of gateways). 3 sac'd overlords at the same time should see everything too, though.
No gas at nat, full base, gateway all-in. 3 gas, macro play, usually opens with some sort of tech (ie 1 stargate into 4 gate). 4 gas, double stargate all-in, mass sentry all-in like sentry/immortal, could be a blink all-in if lots of gateways. You get a read by how quick they take their gas (ie all 4 gas at 9:00 doesnt tell you something, but all 4 taken right at 6:00 is a big tell).
Just search posts in zerg help me thread, it's been covered to death. I post this about once every 2 days... ugh.
I definitely feel like I haven't seen a pro zerg hold anything blink stalker-based in a while.
They have, it's just imo the hardest all-in to deal with.
Regarding Cloud, the cliffs are the doodad-filled things above the 7 o'clock natural and below the 2 o'clock natural. In case that's not specific enough, here's a picture of Cloud with two overlords pasted on:
Okay, but here's my more specific question:
On both Korhal and Cloud, where do you send your first 2 overlords? I get where a cool spots to have them, but it's not exactly safe for an overlord floating in the middle of the map in a ZvT. I guess in ZvP and ZvZ it's not an issue, so to be specific, what route should your first and 2nd overlord take on these maps. So you send your first overlord that you spawn with, where and along what route? And the 2nd overlord, where do you send it, after, of course, keeping it by your natural to spot for bunkers at first (this one is hard because then marines are out when you start sending it, so route is important).
Get what I mean?
Sounds like Korhal. There's a space on the outside of the natural ("between the natural and third") that's raised, similar to Cloud. Likewise, there're some small raised areas around the map, barely large enough for an overlord to hide atop. I think, anyway, I don't risk leaving overlords on those things, where a single medivac with the army means no more overlord.
Right but medivacs won't be out for a while. I'm asking where do you send that overlord that you always sac at 5:30, and along what route? It's going to die anyways, I don't care if it dies at 15:00 spotting a drop...
I'm asking where do you send the initial overlord you spawn with, and along what route (like is it safe to go all the way across cloud kingdom to terran natural's cliff? will it get there before mariens can kill it?) and where do you send your 2nd overlord, and along what route.
I just don't know where to send my overlord so I can sac it at 5:30 to see what Terran is up to (did he expand, banshees, is it mass hellion, is he going marauder hellion all-in or banshees after reactor hellion, or is he expanding). I get that you can send an overlord by the natural, but that cliff by the natural is too far from the main, and Terran doesn't lift off to their natural until it's too late for you to go "Oh shit he didnt expand and now he's doing an all-in that will kill me because I assumed he played normal".
I think I'm 7-1 on Cloud, with the one loss to a another zerg.
I've been losing uncharacteristically a lot to terrans on the new maps, because I can't tell if they are 1 basing or not. And turns out they are. Really, really bad terrans too.
As for the other match-ups, been doing okay. Korhal seems pretty well designed so far. I hate how on TDA, the choke at your third is actually larger for the offender, so it's like their's an offensive advantage against the third there. Always have to put preliminary spines there ;/
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First map i vetoed is Entombed Valley - it's just bad for zerg because of some positions and the rocks on the third. Second map Antiga - it has imbalanced positions that are not removed from the ladder version and the gold is there for terran. Third map Shakuras - its incredibly Terran favored.
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Entombed and Shattered. Amazing map pool, don't even need my third veto, though I imagine some zergs using that on shakuras, I actually like that map.
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^ It's nice in zvp/zvz but it's impossible to win in higher level zvt. Doesnt matter how bad early game is, they just mass siege tanks after their double starport or 7 rax all-in failed (or not, just exaggerating here), and then mass ghosts with the split map. No way for zerg to go around a Terran who puts PFs all over the place. I had a game on entombed where someone literally went 2 base rine/tank push, put 2 pfs on the middle by the watch tower. The only way I won it was by going around. you can't do that on shakuras.
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@OP:
Right now, readers can't tell anything about which maps are vetoed the most because the data is split up into three polls. If you want to make this post interesting to readers, give each map's overall veto percentage. (Just add up the percentages for each map across the three polls.)
Just to illustrate: Shattered Temple is vetoed the most at 79%, and Entombed Valley vetoed second most at 75%. That's only 4% behind, but it can seem a lot more due to the way the data is split up.
If you would, I think this would make this thread a lot more valuable and interesting to the community.
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This is so weird, I'm Zerg (diamond) and Shattered Temple is actually the map I have the best winning percentage according to Sc2gears. (63%). It is also the second map I played the most on, so the stats should be somewhat accurate. It is followed by Metalopolis (56%) and Shakuras (52%).
There must be something wrong with my play style, or maps actually don't mean anything in diamond league.
Edit : And on Shattered, I have 71% ZvT, 62% ZvP and 57% ZvZ
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Entombed because the 2nd and 3rd are way too clumped together, terran/toss can have a field day when zerg is stuck in that small space.
Metal is not friendly to late game ZvP army as the main paths are thin and are begging to be stormed/vortexed.
Shattered b/c its old and have played it to death, i'd rather have a higher chance of playing newer maps.
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entombed valley or shattered for sure!
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Antiga because I personally hate the middle. I feel like I can't take advanage of it until Broodlords and I'm also really sick playing on it anyway
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Downvoted Tal'Darim, Entombed, and Korhal.
Reasoning: Tal'Darim was down voted because of the easily abused siege area right outside the natural for the Terran, and in similar ways, the Protoss.
Entombed was down voted because I don't like the progression of the expansions.
Korhal was downvoted because I think hold you're third is hard as hell, especially against Protoss aggression and Stargate play.
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I veoted Taldarim Altar : because of the rock on the third mainly but also because of the choke on the natural (against tanks) Shattered temple : rocks on the third, b2 and b3 free for protoss and terrans, even the b4 is way to easy to defend for them while we have to break 2 or 3 rocks before to be able to expand on the natural b3 and the natural b4.
For the third vetos i'm still not sure, maybe Entombed Valley or maybe Cloud Kingdoms which have way to many chokes. I'm gonna need to try them in ladder to be sure about that.
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yea i hate tda, i think im going to un-veto entombed and veto tda.
I hate not being able to fast third on that map, and being forced to always 2 base muta. Toss can usually push out with his opening with an army that is more favorable to a base trade (i guess the same reasons why it stopped being the popular standard in the first place).
Against terran, besides the ledge, end game is just a nightmare. If you go broodlords he is just way too mobile and base trades and wins, and ling/bane/muta forever is going to die to rine/tank/thor. My games are just ALWAYS base trades on that map. I've had wayyyy too many games on this map where I was dominating all game long, and then it's time for me to take my 6th base and Terran is on 5 with PFs and turrets, and I can never secure a 7th base because either his army outmoves my BL army, or I'm contained by his push with rine/tank if I'm ling/bane/muta. Just hate this map. Too many stupid comebacks where I can't get a 7th base and Terran slowly builds back up an army and wins. Most 'wtf' losses on this map in ZvT, it's not a good map when you starve out on 6 bases and terran just never dies even with only 1 mining base and eventually comes back.
zvz is kind of a pain when everyone just 10 pools or 14/14 ling/bane on the map against hatch first, and you can't reliably drone scout. Then when they do go hatch first, they are just greedy as fuck and you end up behind because the game is just so blind. 14/14 ling bane is still holdable but it's just harder than most maps due to it being so wide open they run lings past, and you have to overmake banes to deal with it (potentially leading you to being behind when they go into macro game).
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On February 19 2012 17:19 Belial88 wrote:
Okay, but here's my more specific question:
On both Korhal and Cloud, where do you send your first 2 overlords? I get where a cool spots to have them, but it's not exactly safe for an overlord floating in the middle of the map in a ZvT. I guess in ZvP and ZvZ it's not an issue, so to be specific, what route should your first and 2nd overlord take on these maps. So you send your first overlord that you spawn with, where and along what route? And the 2nd overlord, where do you send it, after, of course, keeping it by your natural to spot for bunkers at first (this one is hard because then marines are out when you start sending it, so route is important).
Get what I mean?
Ah, I get what you're saying. I've been able to get away with sending my first overlord to that little pillar on Korhal, but that could be just because all the Terrans I've faced are going reactored hellion and aren't trying to overlord hunt early enough to stop it. If I had to guess, I'd say the safest thing is to send your second overlord obliquely across the map to the right/left edge, then sneaking it in at the same time. You're right, it is a big issue; no obvious safe routes to take.
Cloud I hide a second overlord atop the raised area near the third. The towers don't see that far, and if you send it vertically from your natural, it's out of the way of normal base-to-base movement. Again, though, it's a case of no truly safe routes.
For both maps, are you consistently losing overlords and thus being unable to scout? I don't think I've lost an overlord yet myself.
On February 20 2012 21:02 Belial88 wrote: yea i hate tda, i think im going to un-veto entombed and veto tda.
I hate not being able to fast third on that map, and being forced to always 2 base muta. Toss can usually push out with his opening with an army that is more favorable to a base trade (i guess the same reasons why it stopped being the popular standard in the first place).
Against terran, besides the ledge, end game is just a nightmare. If you go broodlords he is just way too mobile and base trades and wins, and ling/bane/muta forever is going to die to rine/tank/thor. My games are just ALWAYS base trades on that map. I've had wayyyy too many games on this map where I was dominating all game long, and then it's time for me to take my 6th base and Terran is on 5 with PFs and turrets, and I can never secure a 7th base because either his army outmoves my BL army, or I'm contained by his push with rine/tank if I'm ling/bane/muta. Just hate this map. Too many stupid comebacks where I can't get a 7th base and Terran slowly builds back up an army and wins. Most 'wtf' losses on this map in ZvT, it's not a good map when you starve out on 6 bases and terran just never dies even with only 1 mining base and eventually comes back.
zvz is kind of a pain when everyone just 10 pools or 14/14 ling/bane on the map against hatch first, and you can't reliably drone scout. Then when they do go hatch first, they are just greedy as fuck and you end up behind because the game is just so blind. 14/14 ling bane is still holdable but it's just harder than most maps due to it being so wide open they run lings past, and you have to overmake banes to deal with it (potentially leading you to being behind when they go into macro game).
Gotta mention that I had a ZvT on Cloud today that felt like TDA, except that by taking the middle-ish two bases bases (low ground ones), I could still respond quickly enough with a BL-infestor army, because holding the center keeps you close to so many of the other bases you would want to attack. 49 minutes of slowly sieging my way through the Terran's PFs and turrets. The Terran easily takes the edge expansions for third and fourth, but by holding the center two, you can attack the third or fourth pretty much from atop one of the center bases. Just need to spine/spore up the ledge above the one on your side of the map to give yourself a response time buffer.
I actually go 13p/12g bling for ZvZ on TDA, though don't know how good an idea it is. In my experience, it easily stops 10pools (and 6pools), and pretty much cleaves through 15hatch at my level (diamond). Generally even with 14/14. So, a nice middle-of-the-road deal. I veto TDA now, too, though.
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Cloud Kingdom is a nightmare in ZvP, everything is a narrow choke, defending your bases with spines is a pain, and your first selection for a 4th can be badly abused from high ground. Plus if the protoss goes 1 or 2 stargate the horras is stupid hard to deal with because of the distance between the nat and 3rd. In ZvZ and ZvT it seems... okaaaay, but ZvP seems an insta loss almost.
The narrow chokeways make it a terrible map from my experience, but more time will tell I guess. Interested in seeing what other people have experienced with the map.
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Just entombed valley for me, maaaaybe shakuras because I hate that tank shenanigans but it would be worth learning to deal with it.
Shattered Temple I actually like because it is easy to get surrounds in the middle of the map because of the very large open space.
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Been considering this quite alot. Entombed because of close spawn, weird 3rd, tough to pressure turtle P and awkward ling runby attack paths. TDA because no ramp zvz. Cloud at the moment because of the ramps and chokes everywhere, especially around either 3rd. I have some issues with Korhal because of the nat 3rd but until I learn how to play on Cloud better, the wide open middle on Korhal is nice.
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Some advice for zergs complaining about Cloud -> Treat the chokes as an advantage. Most of my ZvPs devolve into allin-defense vs allin, and Protoss have a hard time forcing their way up into my 3rd due to the nature of the map and the tendency for Protoss to ball up their units.
When engaging their 3rd, you have to attack up the ramp and through the wide side-path at the same time.
The natural is and will always remain a pain, though, collossus cliff-walking can prolong a dead Protoss and give reason to hope for a second chance.
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1. Shattered 2. Temple 3. Shattered Temple
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On February 22 2012 13:49 ThomasHobbes wrote: Some advice for zergs complaining about Cloud -> Treat the chokes as an advantage. Most of my ZvPs devolve into allin-defense vs allin, and Protoss have a hard time forcing their way up into my 3rd due to the nature of the map and the tendency for Protoss to ball up their units.
When engaging their 3rd, you have to attack up the ramp and through the wide side-path at the same time.
The natural is and will always remain a pain, though, collossus cliff-walking can prolong a dead Protoss and give reason to hope for a second chance.
Just finished a ZvP on Cloud where colossus cliff-straddling became a problem once I broke through the wall. I found that either splitting 70-30 high ground-low ground (since you have reinforcements streaming in, yeah?) works to kill them. Or, if you feel like you don't have enough to engage, split 50-50 to the two mineral lines.
Every Protoss I've played on Cloud thus far places a pylon at the middle-top or middle-bottom of the map to warp in units against your third. This is the fifth time, I have yet to catch that probe coming out; replays show that they sneak it out rather early, or even move their natural-denying probe there and let it idle until their warpgates are up.
The advice about going through the side path to get to their third is golden, thanks for mentioning that. Haven't tried yet, but I'm willing to bet that moving 100% through the side may be the way to go. Remember, reinforcements can come in from the other ramp (nearer their natural), too, to get a surround on the stalkers, in spite of a gateway wall at the ramp of the third.
Don't forget to take your fourth the moment you make your way into the third.
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ZvP on Korhal, anyone found a reliable way to assault the toss FFE wall? It looks so vulnerable to me because of the wide space in front of it, allowing easy attacks on the forge especially. Next game, I may just go proxy a third hatch around the corner from the natural (behind the tree-filled cliff) and put down three spines to see how it goes. That and ling runbys around the back of the mineral line look... well, possible, but not easy.
I really feel like there's a way to reliably damage an FFE here, but no one's tried it because we're all busy defending our far-away third. Which looks very blink stalker-vulnerable, I should add.
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