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Storm/Charge is late that you would die to a hydra push...all Zerg has to see is continuation of void rays being produced or multiple void rays in the air to convince them to make hydras
Your 11:00 timing where you get your templar archives down is a timing Zerg can punish with a sizeable hydra/ling army which will eventually kill your army, third, and soon enough you will end up losing. Your food around this time should be like 100 or so whereas Zerg will have 160+.
Now you say how your wall and cannons should delay enough time for you to have storm and/or charge, but that's completely false. The DPS of the Hydras would crush all your buildings within 30 seconds if anything. So from there what do you do. Do you sac your third and build another wall at your natural?
The only thing I agree is the early fleet beacon.
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What do you think about this strategy?: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352585 he gets mothership really early, but rely in archoons an chargelots instead of air/ground composition, i think that stargate, anf fleet beacon are a nice way to go, but the problem are the transitions, ill love that more players try this stuff to get a new way of playing pvz.
I think that shield upg its too expensive, but if u get early archoons could be efffective...
The addition of carriers is interesting, but you need a lot of gas and u have a really weak window where zerg can crush you.
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dude he is saying that he would scout the early pool and not nexus first its pretty simple, if you want a replay of a protoss beating a zerg that does a fast pool there are thousands out there, just because you start off a game with the intent to nexus first does not mean you have to go for it, if you scout fast pool then throw down forge and get some cannons. he isnt putting in how to defend agains a 7-11 pool because that subject has been discussed to death, and the two poeple who he was being "constructively criticized" were either bringing up a point that wasnt relevant to the discussion ie; how to defend FE against early pool or had one one liner like auto loose to derp derp shderp. nice guide thx
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I am glad others noticed how.much this build is weak to early hydras. I think op made.this only to blind counter infestor / bl combo...
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On July 20 2012 05:08 Asmodeusx wrote: Belial and ineversmile, did you even read it? There is no mention of 2 base mothership and the replays + example build order should be descriptive enaugh
"how are you going to deal with mass roach at 11:30, or roach/hydra drops, mutas, etc."
It's all in the guide/replays.
"Zerg focuses the third down with ling/roach, and that's it, you can't really win anymore."
Lol, that's all i've got to say.
Maybe I'm confused how 12:45 and 63 supply line up in terms of timings, but I can see you are just taking a third off single stargate and then 3 gates total - the standard hydra response makes sure that you absolutely cannot take a third until you have colossus out, hence why in recent PvZ you see every Toss get colossus before third when opening stargate, and I doubt you could take it even against roach/ling, even without colossus tech vs roach/ling/nohydras.
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On July 20 2012 07:01 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 05:08 Asmodeusx wrote: Belial and ineversmile, did you even read it? There is no mention of 2 base mothership and the replays + example build order should be descriptive enaugh
"how are you going to deal with mass roach at 11:30, or roach/hydra drops, mutas, etc."
It's all in the guide/replays.
"Zerg focuses the third down with ling/roach, and that's it, you can't really win anymore."
Lol, that's all i've got to say. Maybe I'm confused how 12:45 and 63 supply line up in terms of timings, but I can see you are just taking a third off single stargate and then 3 gates total - the standard hydra response makes sure that you absolutely cannot take a third until you have colossus out, hence why in recent PvZ you see every Toss get colossus before third when opening stargate, and I doubt you could take it even against roach/ling, even without colossus tech vs roach/ling/nohydras.
Ok, you doubt, i'll play.
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On July 20 2012 07:01 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 05:08 Asmodeusx wrote: Belial and ineversmile, did you even read it? There is no mention of 2 base mothership and the replays + example build order should be descriptive enaugh
"how are you going to deal with mass roach at 11:30, or roach/hydra drops, mutas, etc."
It's all in the guide/replays.
"Zerg focuses the third down with ling/roach, and that's it, you can't really win anymore."
Lol, that's all i've got to say. Maybe I'm confused how 12:45 and 63 supply line up in terms of timings, but I can see you are just taking a third off single stargate and then 3 gates total - the standard hydra response makes sure that you absolutely cannot take a third until you have colossus out, hence why in recent PvZ you see every Toss get colossus before third when opening stargate, and I doubt you could take it even against roach/ling, even without colossus tech vs roach/ling/nohydras.
Yep, its very difficult to hold a third in that timming u need great FF and some unit that can deal with the zerg mass, like collossus or void ray(or phoenix like MC vs DRG). Thats why i think the motherships its great, because u can expand just moments before that the MS pop out (if u cant in the first try), and ur wall its unbreakable for a while. U need to be active with ur air force to kill the overseer and u get a free expo and a stronger push after that (or u can sit and play defensive until maxed)
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Don't feed the trolls. This style is amazing - I've been using it for quite some time now, with mass cannons and defensive mothership for recall. It actually owns hydra builds. I know it sounds counter-intuitive, but it's true. You have to play around with the build, actually try it before making blind assumptions. I've stomped Zergs who literally built nothing but drones, queens, and hydras. 2-3 Carriers later on is really important, as well as adding in Archons and Storm later. The only composition that can effectively combat this is corruptor/infestor, and even that can be beaten with quick recalls to cannon farms and proxy pylons scattered about to warpin chargelots at 3-4 locations if he commits to mass mass corruptors. This style lends very well to a true lategame macro PvZ, is very strong, allows you to secure a 4th base without much difficulty, and even allows for gateway transitions if necessary later on. Mass Voids and a few Carriers, with HT/Archon fornsupport and chargelots for harass, and cannons at all your bases for a mineral dump is incredibly effective. You can send zealots to all his bases, fly your air to his main and snipe a few key tech structures, and even if all your air gets fungaled when his army arrives, you can easily mass recall onto a cannon farm, keep your entire air army intact, and harass with warpins of throwaway units while you continue with upgrades, dropping cannons, and expanding your map control. This is a boss way to play PvZ, and it certainly is not "autoloss" even against straight hydra tech. Void Rays still beat Hydras if you're fighting over a shittin of cannons and micro voids properly. If you prepared for really long map-control games and are good with recalland not afraid to use excessive cannons as a mineral dump, this style kicks ass.
Note about playing this style at a high level: I've found that it's a lot better to leave your MS at home, avoid direct engagements with your Air in favor of focusing down hatcheries, tech structures, denying upgrades, etc., and using your defensive MS to mass recall your air whenever he defend and hits your Air with a fungal. This requires liberal use of cannons, but that isn't a huge problem as your army pretty much stays alive all game with good recalls and is very gas heavy anyway, so you need a mineral dump once you're on 4-5 bases. Cannon farms and defensive HTs for storms give you safe spots to recall back to, discourage counterattacks, and a MS on defense means all this is cloaked, and your air is free to roam aout killing expansions, as it can be recalled for defense as and when needed.
If you're a patient, intelligent player, this style will serve you well, at the Master League level and beyond. Try not to get too hung up on the OP's exact build order. It's only an example,and there are plenty of ways to execute this safely and efficiently. It really is insanely strong, packed with potential, and lends the kind of mobility that puts the ball in your (Protoss) court, for once. I definitely recommend trying it out and tinkering with it. It's tough at first, but add your own adaptations and improvisations, and I promise you'll find it's a lot stronger and more viable than you guessed.
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On July 20 2012 09:00 Masvidal wrote:Try not to get too hung up on the OP's exact build order. It's only an example,and there are plenty of ways to execute this safely and efficiently.
I'm happy that someone gets this part.
And yea, cannons are very important for many reasons. Some people try to counter it by scattering speedlings or roaches around the map and harassing all expansions and it's much better to spend extra resources on static defences than lose a mining base.
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Belial and asmodeus should play it out to provide some high quality replays
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On July 20 2012 11:36 etherealfall wrote: Belial and asmodeus should play it out to provide some high quality replays ^ Cool idea. Be interesting to see.
I watched the vs 12 min max one because I didn't think this build could hold. From what I saw, since you don't get the +1 melee, you're ridiculously open to any kind of ling aggression. You would think zealots and sentry could deal with it, but not when you dump gas into VRs instead of sentries and skip the melee upgrade. Early lings will easily deny your fast third and you'll never be able to catch up with upgrades in the melee department, leaving you on two bases until you get enough VRs, by which time i believe zerg should react properly...
edit: this build is like that modern greedy gateway superwall expand, except with the voidrays.
Proper stephano mass roach style come with lings and multi-prong aggression, this replay did not have that. The buttload of VRs may still hold it tho if you got great sim city.
Every toss needs to get faster mothership if they don't have a good pre-BL push.
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On July 20 2012 11:36 etherealfall wrote: Belial and asmodeus should play it out to provide some high quality replays
Just because these people post a lot doesn't mean they are high level players, I've had friends in low masters play Belial, I would like to see some actual high level players, meaning tip top master/gm players to see proper responses.
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On July 20 2012 13:29 GleaM wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 11:36 etherealfall wrote: Belial and asmodeus should play it out to provide some high quality replays Just because these people post a lot doesn't mean they are high level players, I've had friends in low masters play Belial, I would like to see some actual high level players, meaning tip top master/gm players to see proper responses.
I don't understand your nitpicking. Do you mean ladder games? Because your MMR will place you with opponents not necessarily in your skill ball park. A counter example: I've versed and beaten GM players as a high diamond.
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Just read everything and watched a rep.
I disagree a lot with many concepts. No offense but looks like the classic case of a build that work wonders untill certain skill level. I gotta go now, but i will post all my counter arguments to your build later. And btw, a while ago, like a year or something, a semi-pro player called rsvp (gm of curse) used a pretty similar build (stargate/gate into 3rd, voids plus charge and storm composition) and he explained why it stoped working. That composition just can't hold a 3rd consistently vs mainly-roach armies at higher levels.
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Game on daybreak: your opponent macroed very poorly (below 60 suply at 8 min) and almost played blindly till minute 11 when he just commit suicide with his full army of about 50 lings. So, he didn't make a real attack but his tech choice started at 13 min!! I stopped watching there cose you were pretty ahead (no build influence at all).
Game on ohana vs mr vampire: Again, almost unexistent scout from the Z, and even worse macro (below 50 suply at 8min with no engagement at all!!! You had a 8 worker lead by that time...). The Z goes for a blind pure roach attack at 12:30 (164/166) and got crushed (he even choose the ramp instead of the wide 3rd -.-"). After that, you were really ahead: same bases, more workers and tech for you, no tech or army for him.
Game on ohana vs becareful: Despite some weird stuff, this is the best of the 3 Z's. 59 suply, lair on the way and roach done at 8 min. Weak scout again, he had no idea about your build besides the phoenix (3rd? gate all in? robo? composition?). You have no idea about his build either till the build was done. Just at 12 he saw your 3rd up and running (then he sent an overseer), and you saw his high ling count. Then at 19 min, your superb composition rapes his army. Yes, this build will blindly CRUSH any blind attempt for infestor-brood rush, no one will deny that.
Now about your reasoning:
First off all, at higher levels, you need to be efficient. Not just effective, efficient. Builds are just tighter, faster, so you do not have time to make the same stuff that you can do aganist a slower opponent.
Shield upgrade-zealot-charge-storm: Any good zerg have very high macro capabilities when you don't pressure them. In your build i do not see any real pressure besides the threat of stargate. So they can do any of their 11-13 min roach/ling, roach/hidra/ling pushes wihouth any delay. And with you teching so hard, and with tech that do not counter any roach based army at all, you will be dead at any of those timings (again, vs decent zerg). Thats why top koreans tech to robo after any macro stargate play.
Extra stuff:
- If you go for stargate play, you need to start both your gases at once. In all your games you had plenty minerals and shortage of gas after your cybercore. I have watched a lot of pro stargate builds. Believe me , you need that fast 2nd gas for any stargate build. Even more if you want that safety sentry early.
- If you go for void ray, why get a phoenix 1st? The only reason i can think off, is faking mass phoenix for a z overreaction, but honestly that will happen at certain level. The idea of void first is to make the slow production/harass unit fast before showing your hand off early.
- In the guide you talk about " if your opponent is smart" and "if your opponent is stupid". You should not make a guide skill-dependant to work (well, there are some builds that need skill to work, like heavy multitask phoenix play).
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United Kingdom20157 Posts
It allows you to play a macro game with zerg, without a time-bomb counting your minutes untill "unstoppable" broodlord/infestor/spinecrawler army rolls over you. You can actually fight against it.
If you posted anything remotely close to this back in 2010 you would be locked in a mental hospital, i find it pretty funny, there have been patches etc of course, but the real game changers didnt come from those IMO
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Before I learn this build, I need to see a game vs a good muta player off 3 base.
I dont mean to disregard your efforts (its an innovative and good style indeed, I have been playing airtoss a lot myself), but mutas are my biggest problem in PvZ.
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On July 20 2012 13:29 GleaM wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 11:36 etherealfall wrote: Belial and asmodeus should play it out to provide some high quality replays Just because these people post a lot doesn't mean they are high level players, I've had friends in low masters play Belial, I would like to see some actual high level players, meaning tip top master/gm players to see proper responses. I think he meant for our entertainment purposes.
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I'll try to update replays section to provide more material.
http://drop.sc/225540 10 min roach/ling attack into almost 40 min macro game where i just don't die and zerg mines out his half of ohana and gives up.
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On July 21 2012 04:14 Daimai wrote: Before I learn this build, I need to see a game vs a good muta player off 3 base.
I dont mean to disregard your efforts (its an innovative and good style indeed, I have been playing airtoss a lot myself), but mutas are my biggest problem in PvZ. Mutas are easy with this style. You just add your 2nd Stargate and Fleet Beacon earlier in lieu of making extra Gateways and put some cannons down. Double pump Phoenix and get Phoenix Range upgrade. Then you kite Mutas until you have number to chase and kill them, harass Queens/Gas Drones, and take extra bases behind it. You get a lot of Phoenix, then mass up HTs and Chargelots to Feedback the inevitable infestors and Chargelots for possible Hydras. With Phoenix air superiority, you can then start adding Void Rays and a Mothership and play the map control game. Muta is really easy with this, it plays right into your hands and cedes map control to you; against Mutas if you play it right, you can get to 5 bases insanely fast and keep so much pressure on the Zerg.
My favorite part about this style is that you never really kill Zerg; you just take the entire map,max out and watch army after army bounce off of you until Zerg gives up and realizes he just can't kill you, BMs you, and ragequits while still on like 4 bases or so. I love the moment when they send max Hydra army and it melts and they just BM and ragequit. It makes the whole 45 minute turtle game worthwhile.
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