On April 08 2011 07:57 PPTouch wrote: 2v2s do not have a future in sc2 as for example: if you are TZ vs ZZ, the ZZ double 6 pools, the zerg on your team instantly dies. Then you are 1 base vs 2 base and if your tech rush fails you lose.
Hmm no. This is of course not true, as the game would have been completely broken. No disrespect, but you, and so many others here, unfortunately, lack experience and knowledge in 2v2 games and offer such simple explanations or incorrect accusations. If you scout properly, you will be able to spot a 6 pool in time so that your zerg ally can put down a pool and fend off double 6 pool alone. Is it the easiest thing in the world? No. Do you win 95%+ of the games where your ally stops this? Yes. You just need to invest some time in your scouting timings on different maps and drone/ling/queen/spine micro to stop the lings. As a protoss, I usually scout with 8 probe against double zerg (minor eco loss if they play standard, instawin if they double 6 pool), so that I get the info even quicker, on short rush distance maps. 9 pylon scouting is usually good enough on shared base or longer distance maps. As a terran, you have to figure out your own timings.
On April 08 2011 08:36 Makica wrote: lol PPTouch, Nizzy , Slago you guys are out of touch with this game. You can insta gg any hellion build with a Protoss ally if you think its coming. If it doesn't come you still have a winnable game.
A zerg player can fight off a double 6 pool BY HIMSELF.
My PP team only loses to TZ when the map is terrible and we mess up.
Like I said, once people learn to play 2v2, they will know how to counter the cheese, and then the game evolves. Same thing as solo, except solo is played much much more extensively so we are farther along in solo.
As much as I agree with most of your post, I completely disagree that you can insta gg any hellion build as a protoss. Actually, I'm going to go completely against you here and say the quite opposite. It's nearly impossible to stop a well executed and nicely timed hellion build (TZ vs PZ). There's so many transitions (cloaked banshee, 3 rax marauder, eco expand, tank slow pushing) and so on. Hard to scout, and even harder to stop, even though you know what's coming. The hardest part is of course that stalkers use ages to kill hellions, and hellions fry your ally's lings like there was no tomorrow. It's insane even though you do a proper stalker-ling-bling dance, and even have an additional hatch for ling production compared to your opponents.
Please feel free to elaborate on how to "insta gg" hellion builds, cause the Europe server is completely broken due to that right now. I would also like to know what you do as a PP team, since you say you only lose to TZ. I probably regard PP as the weakest combination there is, so I would be interested in hearing more about your style, and more about how 2v2 currently works out on the NA server.
Me and xSixAzide, top 5 world 2v2 team (points) since the release of Sc2. as double Protoss.
Here you go. Insta gg cheese against the Hellion build with Zerg. This game isn't of the hellion build, but that build is even weaker because the terran gets a late rax and has less minerals due to more gas early game.
Works extremely well with any ZX team. This is one out of a large bag of tricks we have for 2v2. We'd prefer a long macro game where he is more robo heavy and me more stargate/templar archives heavy, but sometimes you have to own noobs early.
Against 10 pool, the cannon is up before his zerglings are out. If they pull drones you get into a very intense micro battle ^^
On April 08 2011 07:57 PPTouch wrote: 2v2s do not have a future in sc2 as for example: if you are TZ vs ZZ, the ZZ double 6 pools, the zerg on your team instantly dies. Then you are 1 base vs 2 base and if your tech rush fails you lose.
Hmm no. This is of course not true, as the game would have been completely broken. No disrespect, but you, and so many others here, unfortunately, lack experience and knowledge in 2v2 games and offer such simple explanations or incorrect accusations. If you scout properly, you will be able to spot a 6 pool in time so that your zerg ally can put down a pool and fend off double 6 pool alone. Is it the easiest thing in the world? No. Do you win 95%+ of the games where your ally stops this? Yes. You just need to invest some time in your scouting timings on different maps and drone/ling/queen/spine micro to stop the lings. As a protoss, I usually scout with 8 probe against double zerg (minor eco loss if they play standard, instawin if they double 6 pool), so that I get the info even quicker, on short rush distance maps. 9 pylon scouting is usually good enough on shared base or longer distance maps. As a terran, you have to figure out your own timings.
On April 08 2011 08:36 Makica wrote: lol PPTouch, Nizzy , Slago you guys are out of touch with this game. You can insta gg any hellion build with a Protoss ally if you think its coming. If it doesn't come you still have a winnable game.
A zerg player can fight off a double 6 pool BY HIMSELF.
My PP team only loses to TZ when the map is terrible and we mess up.
Like I said, once people learn to play 2v2, they will know how to counter the cheese, and then the game evolves. Same thing as solo, except solo is played much much more extensively so we are farther along in solo.
As much as I agree with most of your post, I completely disagree that you can insta gg any hellion build as a protoss. Actually, I'm going to go completely against you here and say the quite opposite. It's nearly impossible to stop a well executed and nicely timed hellion build (TZ vs PZ). There's so many transitions (cloaked banshee, 3 rax marauder, eco expand, tank slow pushing) and so on. Hard to scout, and even harder to stop, even though you know what's coming. The hardest part is of course that stalkers use ages to kill hellions, and hellions fry your ally's lings like there was no tomorrow. It's insane even though you do a proper stalker-ling-bling dance, and even have an additional hatch for ling production compared to your opponents.
Please feel free to elaborate on how to "insta gg" hellion builds, cause the Europe server is completely broken due to that right now. I would also like to know what you do as a PP team, since you say you only lose to TZ. I probably regard PP as the weakest combination there is, so I would be interested in hearing more about your style, and more about how 2v2 currently works out on the NA server.
On April 08 2011 07:57 PPTouch wrote: 2v2s do not have a future in sc2 as for example: if you are TZ vs ZZ, the ZZ double 6 pools, the zerg on your team instantly dies. Then you are 1 base vs 2 base and if your tech rush fails you lose.
Hmm no. This is of course not true, as the game would have been completely broken. No disrespect, but you, and so many others here, unfortunately, lack experience and knowledge in 2v2 games and offer such simple explanations or incorrect accusations. If you scout properly, you will be able to spot a 6 pool in time so that your zerg ally can put down a pool and fend off double 6 pool alone. Is it the easiest thing in the world? No. Do you win 95%+ of the games where your ally stops this? Yes. You just need to invest some time in your scouting timings on different maps and drone/ling/queen/spine micro to stop the lings. As a protoss, I usually scout with 8 probe against double zerg (minor eco loss if they play standard, instawin if they double 6 pool), so that I get the info even quicker, on short rush distance maps. 9 pylon scouting is usually good enough on shared base or longer distance maps. As a terran, you have to figure out your own timings.
On April 08 2011 08:36 Makica wrote: lol PPTouch, Nizzy , Slago you guys are out of touch with this game. You can insta gg any hellion build with a Protoss ally if you think its coming. If it doesn't come you still have a winnable game.
A zerg player can fight off a double 6 pool BY HIMSELF.
My PP team only loses to TZ when the map is terrible and we mess up.
Like I said, once people learn to play 2v2, they will know how to counter the cheese, and then the game evolves. Same thing as solo, except solo is played much much more extensively so we are farther along in solo.
As much as I agree with most of your post, I completely disagree that you can insta gg any hellion build as a protoss. Actually, I'm going to go completely against you here and say the quite opposite. It's nearly impossible to stop a well executed and nicely timed hellion build (TZ vs PZ). There's so many transitions (cloaked banshee, 3 rax marauder, eco expand, tank slow pushing) and so on. Hard to scout, and even harder to stop, even though you know what's coming. The hardest part is of course that stalkers use ages to kill hellions, and hellions fry your ally's lings like there was no tomorrow. It's insane even though you do a proper stalker-ling-bling dance, and even have an additional hatch for ling production compared to your opponents.
Please feel free to elaborate on how to "insta gg" hellion builds, cause the Europe server is completely broken due to that right now. I would also like to know what you do as a PP team, since you say you only lose to TZ. I probably regard PP as the weakest combination there is, so I would be interested in hearing more about your style, and more about how 2v2 currently works out on the NA server.
I agree with about everything you said here. I play on the NA server. The problem is the 2v2 maps are plain terrible. Every 2v2 map favors highly aggressive non-macro play. The 2v2 ladder maps are way smaller and have less bases than professional 1v1 maps. A lot of them even have back door rocks and a big front door and expansions that are near impossible to defend.
To make it worse most of the cheeses don't even require much skill to execute so you have hordes of people vetoing any map with any hint of macro so they can quickly rank up to masters playing a gorgeillion games in no time at all. Blizzard sees the statistics on how the macro maps have the most vetoes and fewest games played and replaces them with more crappy cheese maps!
On April 08 2011 08:36 Makica wrote: lol PPTouch, Nizzy , Slago you guys are out of touch with this game.
You can insta gg any hellion build with a Protoss ally if you think its coming. If it doesn't come you still have a winnable game.
A zerg player can fight off a double 6 pool BY HIMSELF.
My PP team only loses to TZ when the map is terrible and we mess up.
Like I said, once people learn to play 2v2, they will know how to counter the cheese, and then the game evolves. Same thing as solo, except solo is played much much more extensively so we are farther along in solo.
Theres like, zero proof from you to prove that their wrong actually.
Yeah seriously. Just because you said that doesnt mean its true.
Please inform me how a Protoss can stop it without going straight forge cannons.
Pray tell, how can a non cheese zerg who 13 pools hold off a double 6 pool (thats 2 zerg spamming lings, the initial push will be 12 lings, plu more hitting the zerg)?
I think you're just a cheesy player who cheeses every 2v2, and thus thinks 2v2s are balanced.
Newflash. Theyre not.\
EDIT: I think all these guys just 4gate every game as PP
I love 2on2 games, probably because I totally lack the skills to compete on a higher level 1on1, whereas you can get quite far in 2on2 if you get yourself some experience. I like the 2on2s in clanwars, like you have them in SC2CL already, for example. It is kind of refreshing and fun to play and watch.
The YT vid you post Makica just proves nothing at all. I've been playing some forge-walloff with my mate as well, just works way better with PT, imho, if at all. You win this game because Sorcery fails to defend against the proxygates. If he is able to get to stim-tech at any point this game is lost, cause neither of you have any tech. Don't see what the vid should prove at all, as said. T_T;
I tend to agree with Richy on most of the points. Still, I don't know about the hellion/ling. It is incredibly hard to stop if it is executed well, still at least on shared bases or pseudo-shared bases it should be able to defend against it with PT/TT with wall/bunker/cannons. It's just incredibly hard to get the timings right, but still hellion/ling is quite low-eco so using some bunker/cannons should be alright.
On April 08 2011 10:45 PPTouch wrote: Pray tell, how can a non cheese zerg who 13 pools hold off a double 6 pool (thats 2 zerg spamming lings, the initial push will be 12 lings, plu more hitting the zerg)?
I think you're just a cheesy player who cheeses every 2v2, and thus thinks 2v2s are balanced.
Newflash. Theyre not.\
EDIT: I think all these guys just 4gate every game as PP
10p is much more common than 13. And usually much better overall.
And actually, SuperNinja is one of the few 2v2 players who can hold himself in a macro game.
On April 08 2011 10:45 PPTouch wrote: Pray tell, how can a non cheese zerg who 13 pools hold off a double 6 pool (thats 2 zerg spamming lings, the initial push will be 12 lings, plu more hitting the zerg)?
I think you're just a cheesy player who cheeses every 2v2, and thus thinks 2v2s are balanced.
Newflash. Theyre not.\
EDIT: I think all these guys just 4gate every game as PP
10p is much more common than 13. And usually much better overall.
And actually, SuperNinja is one of the few 2v2 players who can hold himself in a macro game.
On April 08 2011 10:45 PPTouch wrote: Pray tell, how can a non cheese zerg who 13 pools hold off a double 6 pool (thats 2 zerg spamming lings, the initial push will be 12 lings, plu more hitting the zerg)?
I think you're just a cheesy player who cheeses every 2v2, and thus thinks 2v2s are balanced.
Newflash. Theyre not.\
EDIT: I think all these guys just 4gate every game as PP
Its not like he has to hold them off without losing drones as long as he forces them to make a second round of lings to kill him hes done his job. It's all about dieing slowly as Day9 said.
If both zergs have 6pooled and then made 20 lings each there is no way they can counter any tech build from the 1 zerg's teammate.
Its why we need bigger maps not more joint nats, so that they cant double 6 pool attack one guys and then move right onto the next guys right away.
I'm primarily a 2v2 player for some reason... I dunno, my friends just like it. It's broken, stupid, and unbalanced. Zerg can't wall off so any early attack is a huge threat, so basically every zerg in teams has to do nothing but mass lings, forever.
It's all a massive rush war, a battle of who can mass the most tier 1 units and micro them the best. It's not that fun and there's no strategy to it. Most matchups have one single viable build order, anything else is an auto loss.
Honestly, 3v3 and 4v4 are actually better competitive games. At least there, if you team rush you might kill one opponent and damage a second one, but meanwhile opponents #3 and #4 have built up armies (or teched to DTs/banshees/whatever) and are going to strike back hard. 4v4 is a chaotic mess but at least teamwork and strategy are more of a factor than in 2v2.
It was incorporated into this tournament http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=182520 The Machinima invitational - i thought it was quite cool, it added a nice dynamic and proved to turn the tide in many clan wars; some players just don't understand the 2v2 dynamic.
I think 2v2 could have a future if enough people take it seriously and learn the ins and outs of the match-ups. Right now, a lot of people can lose to cheese just like the early stages of 1v1 because of inexperience and lack of organized practice.
Although, a big hurdle would be balancing. Blizzard must focus balance issues on 1v1, which could impact 2v2 negatively depending on the change. If this was going to be truly a serious competitive endeavor, it would require Blizzard to devote balance time to 1v1 and 2v2 separately. I do not see them doing this until 1v1 reaches an acceptable competitive balance state and thus have the resources to spare. And this could take a while to do.
Cheesy 2v2 will not work for long. 2v2 requires different approaches, and requires players to macro harder (than micro), and expand just like 1v1. And it is certainly fun lol.
There has been an attempt for a pretty big 2v2 tournament by SCMalaysia with some pretty big names (Huk/Select team as example) but I think they cancelled it after Ro32 or at least there are no more informations about it after that.
I'd find it cool to see some high level 2v2 games but as many people already said, it might be really hard to get some good and exciting games. On the other hand, if you ever start such a leage and you're looking for non- Blizzard 2v2 maps, hit me up ^^
Yes, 2v2s become more macro oriented in the higher levels. My team beats all kinds of cheeses (except for one) with solid scouting, macro play and responses.
The sad part about reading this thread is that a lot of people don't seem to believe that 2v2 can be played in a solid fashion (non-cheese). Even double 6pool, 5gate warpin and the fast DT-style is beatable.
What bothers me right now, is hellion/speedling. It feels imbalanced at the moment, but we are still in the process of trying to counter it. We have soft countered it with baneling stalker against lesser skilled players, but the ease and variety of transitions the terran can go into make me feel that it's broken, I think RiChY has elaborated on this already.
The current speedling/hellion vs stalker/baneling/speedling balance is off, and the map changes just made it worse. It breaks 2v2 ZTvZP at least. I believe that if a TZ team encounters an equally skilled PZ team, the TZ will come out victorious.
Apart from this, go ahead. Proper 2v2 is amazing and so fun to play and watch. It's well worth supporting it.