On April 08 2011 07:57 PPTouch wrote: 2v2s do not have a future in sc2 as for example: if you are TZ vs ZZ, the ZZ double 6 pools, the zerg on your team instantly dies. Then you are 1 base vs 2 base and if your tech rush fails you lose.
Hmm no. This is of course not true, as the game would have been completely broken. No disrespect, but you, and so many others here, unfortunately, lack experience and knowledge in 2v2 games and offer such simple explanations or incorrect accusations. If you scout properly, you will be able to spot a 6 pool in time so that your zerg ally can put down a pool and fend off double 6 pool alone. Is it the easiest thing in the world? No. Do you win 95%+ of the games where your ally stops this? Yes. You just need to invest some time in your scouting timings on different maps and drone/ling/queen/spine micro to stop the lings. As a protoss, I usually scout with 8 probe against double zerg (minor eco loss if they play standard, instawin if they double 6 pool), so that I get the info even quicker, on short rush distance maps. 9 pylon scouting is usually good enough on shared base or longer distance maps. As a terran, you have to figure out your own timings.
On April 08 2011 08:36 Makica wrote: lol PPTouch, Nizzy , Slago you guys are out of touch with this game. You can insta gg any hellion build with a Protoss ally if you think its coming. If it doesn't come you still have a winnable game.
A zerg player can fight off a double 6 pool BY HIMSELF.
My PP team only loses to TZ when the map is terrible and we mess up.
Like I said, once people learn to play 2v2, they will know how to counter the cheese, and then the game evolves. Same thing as solo, except solo is played much much more extensively so we are farther along in solo.
As much as I agree with most of your post, I completely disagree that you can insta gg any hellion build as a protoss. Actually, I'm going to go completely against you here and say the quite opposite. It's nearly impossible to stop a well executed and nicely timed hellion build (TZ vs PZ). There's so many transitions (cloaked banshee, 3 rax marauder, eco expand, tank slow pushing) and so on. Hard to scout, and even harder to stop, even though you know what's coming. The hardest part is of course that stalkers use ages to kill hellions, and hellions fry your ally's lings like there was no tomorrow. It's insane even though you do a proper stalker-ling-bling dance, and even have an additional hatch for ling production compared to your opponents.
Please feel free to elaborate on how to "insta gg" hellion builds, cause the Europe server is completely broken due to that right now. I would also like to know what you do as a PP team, since you say you only lose to TZ. I probably regard PP as the weakest combination there is, so I would be interested in hearing more about your style, and more about how 2v2 currently works out on the NA server.
He's easily a top 2v2 player and makes the top of the ladder consistently using a PP team, commonly known as the weakest race combination.
Pretty sure he knows what he's talking about.
I don't care if he's Barrack Obama's mother dressed up as the Queen of blades or Flash's younger brother, oGsPenis. Please refrain yourselves from appeal to authority arguments. If he's good, I'm sure he has some good arguments to back up his claims rather than hearing about how many pointz on tha ladraaar he has gotten in previous seasons.
On April 08 2011 10:12 Makica wrote:
Me and xSixAzide, top 5 world 2v2 team (points) since the release of Sc2. as double Protoss.
Here you go. Insta gg cheese against the Hellion build with Zerg. This game isn't of the hellion build, but that build is even weaker because the terran gets a late rax and has less minerals due to more gas early game.
Works extremely well with any ZX team. This is one out of a large bag of tricks we have for 2v2. We'd prefer a long macro game where he is more robo heavy and me more stargate/templar archives heavy, but sometimes you have to own noobs early.
Against 10 pool, the cannon is up before his zerglings are out. If they pull drones you get into a very intense micro battle ^^
Lol dude, I don't know what to say. I stopped the replay when I saw the the forge and gates going down in your opponents base. I might finish it later for the lols, but come on. Okay, I agree, if you "think", that is, if you GAMBLE on your opponents going hellions, sure, this might be a viable counter-"cheese". But that's just what it is. A cheese! It's an all-in. That's not solid play, it's rock, paper, scissors. And in my opinion, it sucks. What I'm talking about is actually scouting your opponent and reacting appropriately. If you try to play standard, it's gonna be harder. But listen, PP doesn't neccessarily belong to the category "is extremely weak against hellion/ling", cause toss doesn't have units that disappear when a hellion turns the heat on. So my arguments cannot be applied in your case. I am talking from experience based on PZ games, and I hear other race combinations have problems as well. But PZ, try it out, and see what you can figure out. It's really really hard to not fall behind.
On April 08 2011 10:45 PPTouch wrote: Pray tell, how can a non cheese zerg who 13 pools hold off a double 6 pool (thats 2 zerg spamming lings, the initial push will be 12 lings, plu more hitting the zerg)?
I think you're just a cheesy player who cheeses every 2v2, and thus thinks 2v2s are balanced.
Newflash. Theyre not.\
EDIT: I think all these guys just 4gate every game as PP
Okay, first of all, like some other guy here explained, you don't HAVE to 13 pool against 2 zergs. If you wish to play safe and not scout early, you should go an earlier pool and adapt your strategy to how early you put down the pool. If they drone up, put pressure on or expand or even tech.
But okay, it's been a while since I was double six pooled last time (I'm a toss player in at PZ team, and my ally is a really strong zerg, and he never seems to die to early dual z all-ins, since I scout early so he can put down his pool correctly). But we were double 8 pooled earlier today. Now, I am going to say that this doesn't prove that double 6 pool is as easily stopped, since the lings will hit earlier, but he did go 13 gas, 12 pool and use 3 drones for gas (and stop at 100). He then gets 1 spine and 1 queen, then 6 lings. The lings pops right after the 12 lings enter his base. So he microes, loses some drones and the spine, but his queen survives, and 6-7 of his drones lived to see another day. Okay, he has 100 gas ready for speed, I am untouched, we are ahead by quite a bit. Now listen, in this case, I actually visited our opponents base when my ally had 10 drones. I saw their pool and EVEN though we scouted an 8 pool, he droned up a bit more and went gas first, because we try to be as greedy as possible. Now, say that it was a double 6 pool and he went 10-11 pool before gas (and no gas mined) instead. I am pretty confident to say that it would be a solid hold with proper micro.
And I don't know if you were talking to me or someone else when you pointed your finger and called (possibly me) a cheeser, when I in fact am a macro oriented player, who almost NEVER cheese. We almost always put down hatch before pool and try to get into a mid/late-game with an economical and positional advantage. Since most 2v2 teams are weak or just allins poorly, we have to respond by 4 gating ever so often, but hey, the alternative is to die, and I don't really want that.
On April 08 2011 11:34 bkrow wrote: It was incorporated into this tournament http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=182520 The Machinima invitational - i thought it was quite cool, it added a nice dynamic and proved to turn the tide in many clan wars; some players just don't understand the 2v2 dynamic.
EG won that almost solely on 2v2, it definitely adds an interesting aspect to team leagues. Like in 2008 Samsung KHAN didn't have the best 1v1 lineup but they were so dominant in 2v2 that they won the team league.
I was top 3 in points as a Random in 2v2 in SEA back in December and my games were actually rather varied. I played as zerg and rarely 10pooled, though I always did get rushed. Helped me learn how to hold off any kind of pressure, and after a failed rush the games get pretty interesting.
I think 2v2 CAN have a future; I don't think it's as imbalanced as people think. I've won as ZZ vs anything, and that's probably the most "underpowered" combination unless you both 10pool.
The main problem with 2v2 is probably map size. The maps are tiny when you consider 4 players are playing on it, and the rush distances just make it more tempting to do a quick attack. I guess larger maps could help make 2v2 more interesting and less all-in oriented.
Sure it can be used as a fun thing to do for a showmatch or something, but when there is money on the line lets use the game mode that the game is balanced around.
2x2 isn't so interesting, because maps are so weird. I can't call any balanced map from current map pool except scorched haven. Every TZ use helions/p10 build on any map, any match up without scouting and it mostly works because of maps or low skill of most 2x2 players.
But 1v1 players/spectators have to stop viewing 2v2 through the lens of 1v1. It is very different. It is naturally more aggressive and lower econ, except on maps with shared bases (or 'almost-shared' bases). It is also less predictable due to the much larger space of potential matchups and openings.
Furthermore, even MC/Nestea will lose to a couple mid-masters players if they fail to coordinate. Solo decision making and solo mechanics are not the only factor when you're not playing solo.
2v2 got no future especially against the matchup T/Z, P/P got no chance at all at decent level, and that inbase proxy and photon rush wont work vs good teams, not since the ramp buff and a good scoute. so no future for 2v2 and other team games.
On April 08 2011 01:12 Beyonder wrote: I would absolutely love for 2v2s to be incorporated in to clanwars again. It was fun in BW and it was even more fun in WC3! I believe that with decent maps (read: big!) this could be quite fun. As long as you do not allow double race (e.g., 2x protoss... uhm...).
All the SC2 maps are retarded shared bases maps tho -,.-
On April 08 2011 01:12 Beyonder wrote: I would absolutely love for 2v2s to be incorporated in to clanwars again. It was fun in BW and it was even more fun in WC3! I believe that with decent maps (read: big!) this could be quite fun. As long as you do not allow double race (e.g., 2x protoss... uhm...).
All the SC2 maps are retarded shared bases maps tho -,.-
ye or there is only one natural, and not even a 3rd etc. wich makes it 1baseonly games most of the time
No, no, no. Blizzard will then try to balance around 2v2 like they are already and stupid shit will arise. The only possible way 2v2 has a future is if Blizzard decides to change 2v2 and 1v1 balance ENTIRELY. Shit specifically balanced around rushes and whatnot for 2v2 that would only apply to 2v2. That's the only possible way 2v2 has a future.
On April 08 2011 01:12 Beyonder wrote: I would absolutely love for 2v2s to be incorporated in to clanwars again. It was fun in BW and it was even more fun in WC3! I believe that with decent maps (read: big!) this could be quite fun. As long as you do not allow double race (e.g., 2x protoss... uhm...).
All the SC2 maps are retarded shared bases maps tho -,.-
That's why we need new SC2 maps for 2v2 play.
Remember we had Steppes of War in the beginning ^_^