|
On October 20 2012 03:08 emc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 02:57 arcHoniC wrote:On October 20 2012 02:54 YourAdHere wrote: Totally agree that mothership needs to be removed Good luck winning ANY PvZ late game without the mothership, not saying it should be in the game but with the current balance Z will always win after 20 minutes of game time yea, because removing the MS was the ONLY thing that was suggested here...
He was commenting on the other guys post.
I think Sase is a bit to emotionally involved in this, Every Protoss is frustrated with pvz so they just immortal sentry all-in because the meta game is all-in or passive to infestor broodlord. There is no in between. You can try and be aggressive and punish greedy thirds but Zergs are only getting better and better stopping those 7:30 4 gate pressure and it's so easily scouted (Fast+1 weapons)
I really want to see a distinction between gateways and warpgates making a strategical decision. Allowing for a slight buff to zealot/stalker and possibly removing force field or changing it so it isn't the only thing that stops protoss from dying tell colossus.
|
wow. seems way too biased from protoss point of view. though i think the mothership mechanic kinda sux. Neural isnt the problem (i mean if a protoss lets his mothership get neuraled (range 7), when vortex has range 9, the protoss deserves to lose imo)
nerfing infestor in any way would completely break all matchups for zerg atm. not that its bad. but its not good on first sight either.
|
On October 20 2012 04:07 sitromit wrote: It's funny how all these "constructive criticism" posts in support of this drivel come to the same conclusion, that Protoss and Zerg both need changes, but apparently the only problem with Protoss is the mothership, and the laundry list of needed nerfs for Zerg are several paragraphs long.
All I have to say to this is LOL.
Sure, include colossus if you think it is too good.
But answer me: What other protoss unit do you think is too strong vs zerg or in general?
|
On October 20 2012 07:21 amaDeus wrote: wow. seems way too biased from protoss point of view. though i think the mothership mechanic kinda sux. Neural isnt the problem (i mean if a protoss lets his mothership get neuraled (range 7), when vortex has range 9, the protoss deserves to lose imo)
nerfing infestor in any way would completely break all matchups for zerg atm. not that its bad. but its not good on first sight either. Yea because you want to Vortex a single Infestor coming to neural your Mothership. If you actually want to win a late-game PvZ by getting a good vortex you tend to have to poke your Mothership forward sometimes, and if you're too aggressive with your ground army it's just going to get chain fungalled and die which means you instantly lose.
|
On October 20 2012 07:28 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 07:21 amaDeus wrote: wow. seems way too biased from protoss point of view. though i think the mothership mechanic kinda sux. Neural isnt the problem (i mean if a protoss lets his mothership get neuraled (range 7), when vortex has range 9, the protoss deserves to lose imo)
nerfing infestor in any way would completely break all matchups for zerg atm. not that its bad. but its not good on first sight either. Yea because you want to Vortex a single Infestor coming to neural your Mothership. If you actually want to win a late-game PvZ by getting a good vortex you tend to have to poke your Mothership forward sometimes, and if you're too aggressive with your ground army it's just going to get chain fungalled and die which means you instantly lose.
nope. if a single infestor comes, ur collossi are gonna burn him before he can even begin to cast shit. if ur army gets chain fungaled their broodlords have to attack and then u can vortex them.
|
On October 20 2012 03:19 arcHoniC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 03:08 emc wrote:On October 20 2012 02:57 arcHoniC wrote:On October 20 2012 02:54 YourAdHere wrote: Totally agree that mothership needs to be removed Good luck winning ANY PvZ late game without the mothership, not saying it should be in the game but with the current balance Z will always win after 20 minutes of game time yea, because removing the MS was the ONLY thing that was suggested here... read whats in the spoiler, all he said was remove mothership
that's just some idiot talking, this thread is about SaSe's ideas, not some random scrub's. And SaSe isn't just calling for removing the MS, there is a ton of other shit mentioned here and I thought you should know that.
|
good ideas, definitely would add alot of intensity to game but for some reason i don't believe blizzard would make a good and exciting game like they used to
|
On October 20 2012 07:39 amaDeus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 07:28 ZAiNs wrote:On October 20 2012 07:21 amaDeus wrote: wow. seems way too biased from protoss point of view. though i think the mothership mechanic kinda sux. Neural isnt the problem (i mean if a protoss lets his mothership get neuraled (range 7), when vortex has range 9, the protoss deserves to lose imo)
nerfing infestor in any way would completely break all matchups for zerg atm. not that its bad. but its not good on first sight either. Yea because you want to Vortex a single Infestor coming to neural your Mothership. If you actually want to win a late-game PvZ by getting a good vortex you tend to have to poke your Mothership forward sometimes, and if you're too aggressive with your ground army it's just going to get chain fungalled and die which means you instantly lose. nope. if a single infestor comes, ur collossi are gonna burn him before he can even begin to cast shit. if ur army gets chain fungaled their broodlords have to attack and then u can vortex them. Yea your army gets chain fungalled and because your opponent isn't an idiot their Brood Lords are spread out.
|
*Fungal doesn't reveal dts, yet they hold them in place and deal damage.
what? really? i never noticed this or is it only in hots? ( i didnt noticed bunkers can stim more than a year later)
what the fuck is this, i hope its a missed detail from blizzard and not intentional.
|
On October 19 2012 12:40 RMonkeyF wrote: I read until the part where SaSe concluded that terran could lift buildings, zerg could see everything, and toss has nothing. Then i laughed out loud, facepalmed, and resumed the usually thinking of "How is this guy allowed to post on any forum."
Sorry for the low post count, but I was moved to contribute. I find it absolutely laughable that anyone could post anything of the nature that Sase has posted here, completely disregarding statistics or any evidence and just saying PvZ is broken. How can you so blatantly ignore WCS Asia's protoss representation and come out with something like this? I'm not even saying that the matchup is enjoyable to play in it's current state, the lategame is incredibly stale having played it from both sides but really, nerfing zerg is a proposterous suggestion when protoss has a better winrate in korea, at the top level.
|
If anything at all comes from this thread, I would hope burrow movement is made more obvious for the enemy to see.
It will be a subtle change, but a much needed one. (My suggestion is to give the animation more obvious smoke, cracks on the ground, or make the ground move a bit more.)
Other than that, hots is fixing a few of these mentioned problems with the mother ship core and making hallucinate an innate ability for the sentry, so scouting will be much easier.
|
On October 20 2012 08:14 Mozz6969 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 12:40 RMonkeyF wrote: I read until the part where SaSe concluded that terran could lift buildings, zerg could see everything, and toss has nothing. Then i laughed out loud, facepalmed, and resumed the usually thinking of "How is this guy allowed to post on any forum." Sorry for the low post count, but I was moved to contribute. I find it absolutely laughable that anyone could post anything of the nature that Sase has posted here, completely disregarding statistics or any evidence and just saying PvZ is broken. How can you so blatantly ignore WCS Asia's protoss representation and come out with something like this? I'm not even saying that the matchup is enjoyable to play in it's current state, the lategame is incredibly stale having played it from both sides but really, nerfing zerg is a proposterous suggestion when protoss has a better winrate in korea, at the top level. you're completely missing the point of the post aren't you?
|
On October 20 2012 08:14 Mozz6969 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 12:40 RMonkeyF wrote: I read until the part where SaSe concluded that terran could lift buildings, zerg could see everything, and toss has nothing. Then i laughed out loud, facepalmed, and resumed the usually thinking of "How is this guy allowed to post on any forum." Sorry for the low post count, but I was moved to contribute. I find it absolutely laughable that anyone could post anything of the nature that Sase has posted here, completely disregarding statistics or any evidence and just saying PvZ is broken. How can you so blatantly ignore WCS Asia's protoss representation and come out with something like this? I'm not even saying that the matchup is enjoyable to play in it's current state, the lategame is incredibly stale having played it from both sides but really, nerfing zerg is a proposterous suggestion when protoss has a better winrate in korea, at the top level.
Statistics are misleading.
Do you think this game is near balance because of percentages? There are way too many small things that can happen in games that do not pertain AT ALL to balance.
The truth is at the moment I believe starcraft to be at its worst point since its very early months of existence. The game used to be hyper-active with fun (but imba) units/buildings such as the speed-reaper, rax before depot, pylon warp-in distance, void ray and so many more.
What I personally feel has happened is that we've gone in the ABSOLUTE opposite direction since WoL's release. We have gotten to a point where the vast majority of units have been WATERED DOWN for the sake of balance and as such numbed the game of any inherent 'fun' it had in it, all-the-while killing the elements of the game that made it entertaining for the SPECTATOR.
Macro games are awesome, but so many timings that were in the game were just flat-out removed because they were 'semi-balanced'. These provided tension and awesomeness for new viewers to watch, not to mention variety. Now we're forced to watch PvZ and TvZ where a Z just gets X amount of queens, sits back for 12 minutes, makes drones then makes 10 infestors and presses F on enemy armies disabling any potential micro-ability (and skill).
Example: They were imbalanced then, but the usage of speed-reapers in the Morrow/Idra game at IEM in 2010 was hilariously fun and got many friends into the game. IdrA actually could've held quite easily but seeing that tension there in action was one amazing part of the game that has sadly gone missing.
TLDR; Blizzard has forsaken tension and exciting situations for 'pure balance' and has missed the mark anyway. We've been left with a carcass that's neither fun nor balanced.
|
On October 20 2012 08:24 cozzE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 08:14 Mozz6969 wrote:On October 19 2012 12:40 RMonkeyF wrote: I read until the part where SaSe concluded that terran could lift buildings, zerg could see everything, and toss has nothing. Then i laughed out loud, facepalmed, and resumed the usually thinking of "How is this guy allowed to post on any forum." Sorry for the low post count, but I was moved to contribute. I find it absolutely laughable that anyone could post anything of the nature that Sase has posted here, completely disregarding statistics or any evidence and just saying PvZ is broken. How can you so blatantly ignore WCS Asia's protoss representation and come out with something like this? I'm not even saying that the matchup is enjoyable to play in it's current state, the lategame is incredibly stale having played it from both sides but really, nerfing zerg is a proposterous suggestion when protoss has a better winrate in korea, at the top level. Statistics are misleading. Do you think this game is near balance because of percentages? There are way too many small things that can happen in games that do not pertain AT ALL to balance. The truth is at the moment I believe starcraft to be at its worst point since its very early months of existence. The game used to be hyper-active with fun (but imba) units/buildings such as the speed-reaper, rax before depot, pylon warp-in distance, void ray and so many more. What I personally feel has happened is that we've gone in the ABSOLUTE opposite direction since WoL's release. We have gotten to a point where the vast majority of units have been WATERED DOWN for the sake of balance and as such numbed the game of any inherent 'fun' it had in it, all-the-while killing the elements of the game that made it entertaining for the SPECTATOR. Macro games are awesome, but so many timings that were in the game was just flat-out removed because they were 'semi-balanced'. These provided tension and awesomeness for new viewers to watch. Example: They were imbalanced then, but the usage of speed-reapers in the Morrow/Idra game at IEM in 2010 was hilariously fun and got many friends into the game. IdrA actually could've held quite easily but seeing that tension there in action was one amazing part of the game that has sadly gone missing. TLDR; Blizzard has forsaken tension and exciting situations for 'pure balance' and his missed the mark anyway. We've been left with a carcass that's neither fun nor balanced.
All I could possibly infer from that post is that you'd rather the game be imbalanced if more fun strategies were involved which entertained the viewer, and as for the comment about percentages not accurately representing balance, if there's a trend dramatically above or below 50% then it's blatant that there's a problem far deeper than the "Small things" you're referencing. Well, unfortunately, as the player, i'd like the game to be at least reasonably fair, and it seems i'm not alone, as people are moved to create threads like this complaining about balance problems. If you think you'd genuinely enjoy playing a race which has to outplay the other races to win just because the strategies you can deploy with other races are more entertaining to observe then I sincerely hope you're never allowed to balance any game.
Also, regarding your comment about fungal, I hope you'll be removing or making drastic changes to sentries in your new imbalanced game, too.
|
On October 20 2012 07:58 jinorazi wrote: *Fungal doesn't reveal dts, yet they hold them in place and deal damage.
what? really? i never noticed this or is it only in hots? ( i didnt noticed bunkers can stim more than a year later)
what the fuck is this, i hope its a missed detail from blizzard and not intentional.
this is a suggestion for blizzard to change, Fungal does reveal DT's. Anything with a * is SaSe's Christmas list.
|
On October 20 2012 00:07 sitromit wrote: Sase's Korean TLPD record vs Z = 35%
For comparison, Rain = 70%, Squirtle = 63%, JYP = 66%.
Protoss pro who is extremely bad in matchup makes a giant nerf post, everyone jumps on the opportunity to join in on the whine fest about how every single Zerg unit, even creep tumors, are overpowered.
This thread is sad and hilarious at the same time.
vote for sticky
|
On October 20 2012 08:57 SirisH wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 00:07 sitromit wrote: Sase's Korean TLPD record vs Z = 35%
For comparison, Rain = 70%, Squirtle = 63%, JYP = 66%.
Protoss pro who is extremely bad in matchup makes a giant nerf post, everyone jumps on the opportunity to join in on the whine fest about how every single Zerg unit, even creep tumors, are overpowered.
This thread is sad and hilarious at the same time. vote for sticky
Yup, Sase I thought you were above this. I am disappoint.
|
On October 20 2012 08:15 NET wrote: If anything at all comes from this thread, I would hope burrow movement is made more obvious for the enemy to see.
It will be a subtle change, but a much needed one. (My suggestion is to give the animation more obvious smoke, cracks on the ground, or make the ground move a bit more.)
Other than that, hots is fixing a few of these mentioned problems with the mother ship core and making hallucinate an innate ability for the sentry, so scouting will be much easier.
I disagree. It's harder to see than cloak sure. But that doesn't make it bad. Burrowed infestors are one of the few late game harassment techniques that isn't instantly shut down by toss warp-ins and cannons. Make it harder and you basically let Toss expand at will.
|
On October 20 2012 00:07 sitromit wrote: Sase's Korean TLPD record vs Z = 35%
For comparison, Rain = 70%, Squirtle = 63%, JYP = 66%.
Protoss pro who is extremely bad in matchup makes a giant nerf post, everyone jumps on the opportunity to join in on the whine fest about how every single Zerg unit, even creep tumors, are overpowered.
This thread is sad and hilarious at the same time.
This makes a lot of sense.
What's even more funny is there are people who read the OP and think those suggestions are useful. Wut
|
On October 20 2012 09:03 BoxingKangaroo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 08:15 NET wrote: If anything at all comes from this thread, I would hope burrow movement is made more obvious for the enemy to see.
It will be a subtle change, but a much needed one. (My suggestion is to give the animation more obvious smoke, cracks on the ground, or make the ground move a bit more.)
Other than that, hots is fixing a few of these mentioned problems with the mother ship core and making hallucinate an innate ability for the sentry, so scouting will be much easier. I disagree. It's harder to see than cloak sure. But that doesn't make it bad. Burrowed infestors are one of the few late game harassment techniques that isn't instantly shut down by toss warp-ins and cannons. Make it harder and you basically let Toss expand at will. Zerg... Bad harass options? O_O
|
|
|
|