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On August 30 2011 06:21 waffleduck wrote: The way I see it the players race has nothing to do with skill. When comparing foreigners to Koreans I view anyone living in a team house and practicing insane amounts while living in Korea to be Korean. Like Huk for example. He is a product of KOREAN training in a KOREAN environment. His success can attributed to living in Korea and he is a byproduct of Korean training. Huk and players like him represent the Korean scene, not the foreign scene. As a counter example Select represents the foreign scene despite being born in Korea since a very large portion of this training is on the NA server.
TL;DR. You don't have to be Korean to play like them. Huk would never have made it this far being in NA therefor his success can be attributed to the Korean system.
What about players living in Korea but practicing foreigner hours like Trickster?
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On August 30 2011 01:09 MrMoose wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 01:02 RealQ wrote:On August 30 2011 01:01 scarymeerkat wrote: good post, interesting info, nice name :D i think it's great to see people doing better vs the koreans. nothing against the koreans, but the ideal scene would be one where nobody has a huge skill gap below them and every game is tight and exciting.
but it kind of bugged me. isn't set another word for a single game? would "match" not be the better term? confused me more than once... a set is match. I think game/series would be less ambiguous.
Finally, something that sounds right and should be used more. I've been so confused by all the set, match, game,....
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On August 30 2011 06:40 andrewlt wrote: What about players living in Korea but practicing foreigner hours like Trickster? They're still practicing against better players. Practicing with people in the StarTale house isn't at all comparable to grinding the NA ladder or practicing with players like IdrA, Axslav, Lz, TLO. HayprO, etc.
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Yeah... Nup. Koreans will keep Top 3 at the next MLG. Though foreigners have a decent chance of taking a place in the Top 6.
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HuK technically should be considered a Korean, since he lives in their environment and performs their practice regimen. The comparison isn't "white dudes versus koreans," since place of birth has nothing to do genetically with playing Starcraft. The comparison is "foreign training methods" versus "Korean training methods".
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On August 30 2011 06:43 Daralii wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 06:40 andrewlt wrote: What about players living in Korea but practicing foreigner hours like Trickster? They're still practicing against better players. Practicing with people in the StarTale house isn't at all comparable to grinding the NA ladder or practicing with players like IdrA, Axslav, Lz, TLO. HayprO, etc.
His results, though, show that foreigners can beat Koreans who practice as much while imbibing as much alcohol as they do. Kinda funny that some people want Fruitdealer to be invited next, but for all the wrong reasons.
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i don't think foreigners have much progress at all, it seems like Korean teams can send anyone and they win, if mvp,mc,nestea etc all came to mlg it would be even worse.
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On August 30 2011 06:45 HyperionDreamer wrote: HuK technically should be considered a Korean, since he lives in their environment and performs their practice regimen. The comparison isn't "white dudes versus koreans," since place of birth has nothing to do genetically with playing Starcraft. The comparison is "foreign training methods" versus "Korean training methods".
huk is not korean, he was not born in korea he is not of korean origin, he is not a korean citizen ...
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On August 30 2011 06:54 jax1492 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 06:45 HyperionDreamer wrote: HuK technically should be considered a Korean, since he lives in their environment and performs their practice regimen. The comparison isn't "white dudes versus koreans," since place of birth has nothing to do genetically with playing Starcraft. The comparison is "foreign training methods" versus "Korean training methods". huk is not korean, he was not born in korea he is not of korean origin, he is not a korean citizen ...
same applies to select vice versa...yet people tend to side him with the foreigners.
serious facepalm when people call what country they represent depending on what server they play on....
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Just so everyone knows/understands this, the divide between Korean skill levels and foreigners have actually been getting worse. So don't be expecting a foreigner to get into the top3, or even top6 for that matter based purely upon skill.
Too add to that, Koreans have really been gaining an interest in foreign tournaments as anyone can tell. Each MLG there seems to be more and more Koreans there on their own(not part of the exchange program). So, if the trend continues and more Koreans began to show up you can be certain they will consistently make it through the open bracket, and eventually start to be placed in the group play based on merit and not just the exchange program; this is already relevant for players like DRG and Rain who this was their second MLG and already secured group play spots.
As long as the Koreans continue to show up in the numbers they have been, you can rest assured that no foreigner will claim a top3, let alone top 6 place.
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On August 30 2011 06:57 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 06:54 jax1492 wrote:On August 30 2011 06:45 HyperionDreamer wrote: HuK technically should be considered a Korean, since he lives in their environment and performs their practice regimen. The comparison isn't "white dudes versus koreans," since place of birth has nothing to do genetically with playing Starcraft. The comparison is "foreign training methods" versus "Korean training methods". huk is not korean, he was not born in korea he is not of korean origin, he is not a korean citizen ... same applies to select vice versa...yet people tend to side him with the foreigners. serious facepalm when people call what country they represent depending on what server they play on.... I don't see how it is serious facepalm tbh. We all know its not the being korean that makes them so good, it is simply the practice regime over there. Lets say Huk wins he next MLG, what does that proof? That foreigners can win against koreans or that the korean practice regime works?
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Also in international law, citizenship dictates if you're from a certain country.
Was Ho Chi Minh French? He studied in France.
Hm...
edit : no he isn't even if he got all of his "training" in French schools and by the French regime.
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72% 80% 76% on 100games are NOT statical evidence of progress being made they could all have a true ratio of 75% if infinity # of games were made and therefore indicate no progress. Also don't forget this is not the same players from one mlg to the next.
Though it does not indicates it's stalling or getting worse. It indicates nothing actually.
Now I let you discuss which you think are better, if foreigners have any hope or what.
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On August 30 2011 01:29 Zalitara wrote: Is it just me or are a lot of people trying to squeeze as many foreigners in as they can with these weird rules? To be korean you must be korean and live in korea, to be a foreigner you just have to be born anywhere but Korea and you can practise in Korea. Don't really care, but it seems weird, and like a way to make the foreign results look better.
Here's my criteria.
In order to be a "Starcraft 2 Korean", you must meet ALL of the following criteria: 1. Both your biological parents must be Koreans. 2. Both your non-biological parents (if applicable) must be Koreans. 3. You must be born in Korea. 4. You must have either finished your army duty or are planning on completing it before March 14, 2021. 5. You must be fond of Kimchi. 6. You must be fluent in Korean language. 7. You must show zealous patriotism toward South Korea. 8. You must have a Korean Windows installed on your computer. 9. You must belong to a Korean starcraft 2 organization and NOT a foreign organization. 10. You must not post on a website named "Team Liquid" 11. You must NOT be a "White Guy" 12. You must radiate the "Korean aura". Whether or not you really radiate is entirely up to my judgment. For example, SeleCT did NOT radiate the Korean aura during MLG Raleigh, but he exuded an overwhelming Korean aura during MLG Anaheim and MLG Columbus. 13. Rule 12 will override any of the other rules combined.
According to this criteria, there were only 4 Koreans in MLG Raleigh: Moonan, iNcontroL, HayprO, TLO.
Time to recalculate that win loss ratio.
+ Show Spoiler +Back to seriously answering the OP, top 6 is definitely doable and it should have been quite doable for MLG Raleigh although things didn't turn out that way. It will obviously depend on which Koreans get invited though. When I heard of the names of Koreans coming to MLG Raleigh, I certainly didn't expect them to perform as well as the last group of Koreans who came to Anaheim.
Top 3, I imagine, would be a bit difficult, but that again depends a lot on who is coming from Korea.
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On August 30 2011 06:54 jax1492 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 06:45 HyperionDreamer wrote: HuK technically should be considered a Korean, since he lives in their environment and performs their practice regimen. The comparison isn't "white dudes versus koreans," since place of birth has nothing to do genetically with playing Starcraft. The comparison is "foreign training methods" versus "Korean training methods". huk is not korean, he was not born in korea he is not of korean origin, he is not a korean citizen ... By this logic Select's wins should be excluded from the list. The thing is that Huk is training more than a half year in a Korean team house, so as a player he is equal to Koreans. He was even listed as a Korean invite at IEM. Thats why his wins over Koreans doesn't help foreigners at all...
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On August 30 2011 01:31 {ToT}ColmA wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 01:23 CptGrackSparrow wrote:On August 30 2011 01:22 farnham wrote: why is select a foreigner when rain is considered a korean ?
we should just go with nationalities. its a objective and easy criteria in comparison to those other criterias like team (fxo is a foreign team. is fxosc or fxoleenock foreigner now ? what about liquid hero or eg puma ?) or place of practice (huk and jinro are practicing in korea. are they koreans ?) Simple answer: Select does not live and train in Korea, Rain does. Really simple answer: It's my criteria. I choose players how I want. rain is living in usa afaik (studying or some shit)
Rain only moved recently. I'd he's still considered a Korean until maybe a year later when his TSL training starts to go away.
He only moved a few months ago so he has his Korean training still fresh with him (it's like if you exercise by running 5 miles a day or w/e. If you stop exercising/running 5 miles a day for only 2-3 months you're still probably in better shape than most. It isn't until 6+ months or so when you start to lose all that training [if you don't continue training that is]).
(Also Rain is owning it up on the NA ladder. His ladder account is "BcuzofPros" or something like that and he has a 90% win ratio and is currently 4th in grand master. Will probably be 1st soon. He's about 100 wins to 10 losses).
Though I hope Rain isn't trying to practice by laddering (laddering isn't the best practice)..
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Relating korean non korean debate.
Can't you just divide it into former BW pros (+B-timers) and others?
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On August 30 2011 07:05 Sein wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 01:29 Zalitara wrote: Is it just me or are a lot of people trying to squeeze as many foreigners in as they can with these weird rules? To be korean you must be korean and live in korea, to be a foreigner you just have to be born anywhere but Korea and you can practise in Korea. Don't really care, but it seems weird, and like a way to make the foreign results look better. Here's my criteria. In order to be a "Starcraft 2 Korean", you must meet ALL of the following criteria: 1. Both your biological parents must be Koreans. 2. Both your non-biological parents (if applicable) must be Koreans. 3. You must be born in Korea. 4. You must have either finished your army duty or are planning on completing it before March 14, 2021. 5. You must be fond of Kimchi. 6. You must be fluent in Korean language. 7. You must show zealous patriotism toward South Korea. 8. You must have a Korean Windows installed on your computer. 9. You must belong to a Korean starcraft 2 organization and NOT a foreign organization. 10. You must not post on a website named "Team Liquid"11. You must NOT be a "White Guy" 12. You must radiate the "Korean aura". Whether or not you really radiate is entirely up to my judgment. For example, SeleCT did NOT radiate the Korean aura during MLG Raleigh, but he exuded an overwhelming Korean aura during MLG Anaheim and MLG Columbus. 13. Rule 12 will override any of the other rules combined.According to this criteria, there were only 4 Koreans in MLG Raleigh: Moonan, iNcontroL, HayprO, TLO. Time to recalculate that win loss ratio. + Show Spoiler +Back to seriously answering the OP, top 6 is definitely doable and it should have been quite doable for MLG Raleigh although things didn't turn out that way. It will obviously depend on which Koreans get invited though. When I heard of the names of Koreans coming to MLG Raleigh, I certainly didn't expect them to perform as well as the last group of Koreans who came to Anaheim.
Top 3, I imagine, would be a bit difficult, but that again depends a lot on who is coming from Korea.
That makes Mr.Chae foreigner. Seriously, there are so many korean who uses TL.
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On August 30 2011 07:05 Sein wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 01:29 Zalitara wrote: Is it just me or are a lot of people trying to squeeze as many foreigners in as they can with these weird rules? To be korean you must be korean and live in korea, to be a foreigner you just have to be born anywhere but Korea and you can practise in Korea. Don't really care, but it seems weird, and like a way to make the foreign results look better. Here's my criteria. In order to be a "Starcraft 2 Korean", you must meet ALL of the following criteria: 12. You must radiate the "Korean aura". Whether or not you really radiate is entirely up to my judgment. For example, SeleCT did NOT radiate the Korean aura during MLG Raleigh, but he exuded an overwhelming Korean aura during MLG Anaheim and MLG Columbus. 13. Rule 12 will override any of the other rules combined.
Good criteria.
To be considered a Korean you must be able to successfully do this anytime you want (with SC1 or SC2):
+ Show Spoiler +*This is what Flash does all the time in his SC games*
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Change it to Korean trained, and foreigner trained and it's even more of a landslide
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