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D and D+ are tough. Often times you find yourself with such a big advantage early game that your opponent is forced to abandon his plan and simply go 3 hatch speed lings all-in. Making that mental shift on the defensive side of things and being prepared to deal with it seems to be the catch. In one of my games, I was in my opponent's base micro'ing my vulture for a minute. Killing things at will, but... I realized I forgot to make a supply depot. I ended up killing one of my own marines so I could make a vessel that I didn't even need, only to lose to 3 hatch speed lings.
Anytime your opponent is acting out of desperation, that's a good spot for us, but there's still no margin for error for us if we're tech heavy. When I have the time I will rectify that and get out the games to C.
With that said, here are my reps from C to B- [url blocked], minus 2 losses at C and a few wins I had at C. 1 loss was to an early mid game all-in. I needed 2 bunkers instead of one. The other loss was due to simply being outplayed and outmacro'd (if memory serves me correct); although, I beat the player in a later rematch. These games are on one of my friend's accounts, and I was playing purely pvz before mid-c.
A few comments. I think not going 8 or 9 rax on python is a mistake. For starters, at close positions, when I go 10 rax and I scout an incoming 4 pool I still usually lose, as the lings arrive way too quickly. Due to the close proximity of the bases you can usually kill off a few drones and cause them to lose mining time. Note: I never bunker rush anyone. At the very least, you can usually intercept an overlord heading to overlook the cliff at your natural. When most players go early pool, they are looking to kill us early, and an early rax just makes us safer. Whether it's exploitable or not, I don't think many players are either going to be going for builds that can do it to us or will have the skill to do so, making it moot. Anytime you can take the initiative in a game and have it be backed by good reasoning, I think that's ideal. We're not playing against pros so putting players to the test is always beneficial. The earlier the better.
In a rematch against the player I lost to, cloudwind, that game brought up an important situation to understand. That would be related to "doom drops." You have to realize that we only want to defend against mass drops for so long. Basically, you have to view this as an inevitable base trading game and your goal is to simply to have the units to kill him off first. This usually means waiting to have enough vessels to feel comfortable that you're not at risk of ever being vesseless and having enough tanks to remain cost efficient versus things such as sunkens.
Once you think you have a good base trading army if it comes to be, you just want to be in a position to pounce on their main before they can amass units. If we can just lock down our natural and keep that safe, this should be a 100% won game for us. Even if we lose our natural, as long as we can keep some buildings away from him, we should still win.
If you keep going to your base to defend "doom drops," your opponent will keep gaining an advantage and he will have map control. There's nothing for us to gain from this. We only want to defend against minimal drops that don't put the Zerg player at great risk if it fails but puts us at risk if it succeeds. Things such as 2 or 4 lurker drops.
Also, a few things that help offset getting a later expansion than other builds could offer us. With this build, the vulture and the vessel are the mvps that have to deliver. The vulture is outside of the opponent's choke to, ofc, gather some intelligence and what not, but it also serves to delay zerg from taking a third, by being able to snipe any would be expo'ing drones. The vessel allows us to get away without making turrets, unless they 2 hatch, but then it's not a macro game, so who cares? When you don't make turrets, it's like being given minerals, so it offsets having a later expo to some degree.
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In the guide you suggest that players get a winrate of 65% on Bnet before moving to ICCup.
I disagree only because so many people on Bnet who play 1's cheat. Players can get great experience even by losing a lot on ICCup playing D- games. I know I did!
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thanks man for the book, reading it atm
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Not to uh, burst your little bubble or what have you, but your OP looked like you were a little up on your high horse, and I'm familiar with who's good and who's not so good, at least in the US region, until around summer of 2010, then I switched to SC2 and pretty much don't pay attention to BW anymore (not that I don't love it, it's the best game ever).
However, I decided to shoot LRM)Game a message, with a link to this thread, asking who you were.. because again, I've never heard of you, and an ascension as fast as you described would be note worthy indeed.
According to LRM)Game, you are "B- protoss who got raped in ISL1 and ISL2 in the group stages... he's fucking bad. Not Kolll or Morrow at all."
And judging by some of your comments and past posts here on TL... I completely agree.
Not that you can't help people, just... don't act delusional please.
Thank you.
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On October 29 2011 11:45 Ero-Sennin wrote: Not to uh, burst your little bubble or what have you, but your OP looked like you were a little up on your high horse, and I'm familiar with who's good and who's not so good, at least in the US region, until around summer of 2010, then I switched to SC2 and pretty much don't pay attention to BW anymore (not that I don't love it, it's the best game ever).
However, I decided to shoot LRM)Game a message, with a link to this thread, asking who you were.. because again, I've never heard of you, and an ascension as fast as you described would be note worthy indeed.
According to LRM)Game, you are "B- protoss who got raped in ISL1 and ISL2 in the group stages... he's fucking bad. Not Kolll or Morrow at all."
And judging by some of your comments and past posts here on TL... I completely agree.
Not that you can't help people, just... don't act delusional please.
Thank you.
So you got an opinion from one person and take that as complete fact?
Is it possible LRM)Game is biased or doesn't know every single player in the US and doesn't know their skill level? Sure he may know a lot about people within his circle of friends or who frequent his tournaments...but I'll assure you there are numerous players from the US he isn't familiar with or knows hardly anything about. And who knows, maybe the OP didn't practice for the tournaments your discussing. Unless you watch him play first hand or critique his information directly its closed minded to reject his information. Open mindedness is gathering all the information about something together and making the most logical decision based on that information. Closed mindedness is the opposite. An example of closed mindedness is getting information from one person then formulating your conclusions. This opens you up to all kinds of bias and error. Its like doing a lab to test a hypothesis with only one trial. You're going to get a lot of error and you might not be getting accurate results.
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On October 29 2011 11:45 Ero-Sennin wrote: Not to uh, burst your little bubble or what have you, but your OP looked like you were a little up on your high horse, and I'm familiar with who's good and who's not so good, at least in the US region, until around summer of 2010, then I switched to SC2 and pretty much don't pay attention to BW anymore (not that I don't love it, it's the best game ever).
However, I decided to shoot LRM)Game a message, with a link to this thread, asking who you were.. because again, I've never heard of you, and an ascension as fast as you described would be note worthy indeed.
According to LRM)Game, you are "B- protoss who got raped in ISL1 and ISL2 in the group stages... he's fucking bad. Not Kolll or Morrow at all."
And judging by some of your comments and past posts here on TL... I completely agree.
Not that you can't help people, just... don't act delusional please.
Thank you.
Not to rain on your "hating parade," but in the last WCG tournament I beat you in the final 4 and you threw a hissy fit. I can understand that in the heat of the moment, as that's part of being competitive for some, but this? What's the point? I was obviously never one of the best players, if top 5 USA is your gauge on "best." That said, how many of these "best" players actually remain in BW or talk about it? 0. So, if you have a problem with me talking about SC, then you should probably refrain from doing it yourself.
I didn't show up to ISL 2. In ISL 1, I lost to Scan who was either hacking or is really playing at a pro gamer level who really scouted something that wasn't telegraphed at all. I hear Koreans are good.... in the second game, it was a very close game that I had won if I simply floated my buildings to a safe location. I had the means to do so, I just didn't really care to do it. Anyways, it was probably the closest game in ISL ladder or group stages, so using the word rape is a bit silly.
Also for someone at your level, you fail pretty bad at logic. What kinda skill level do you think it takes to make things such at top 16 USA or top 10? If you read my home page, you will notice that I haven't been in ANY teams since 2006. It's a little hard to be noticed if you're not looking to be noticed... So, now your "argument" hinges on when did I start playing SC. If you want, I can tell you who bought me the game. I have no idea where you're coming from. Instead of getting angry over largely fictitious reasons, why not just offer better help to others. For one, I'm sure you're better at pvt than I am, going from your talk... help me out...
For the sake of realizing the irony and ridiculousness.... here's game 2 from WCG: http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=49412 versus Sennin. I won this series 2-1 and used this "fun" build every game. I probably beat this guy in the last tournament he has ever played and under the name "Playa," yet he has to ask someone else who I am. And he comes back with I'm a B- PROTOSS player. Well, at least people know what race I play... check out my pvp. It's not about a "penis" contest. It's about making sense. If you're a C rank player, you can help out people who are below your skill level. It's not about coming up with arbitrary numbers and ranks to define who is good or who isn't. We all can't be Ero_Sennin and be better than 100% of players.
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On October 29 2011 05:02 gvb wrote: In the guide you suggest that players get a winrate of 65% on Bnet before moving to ICCup.
I disagree only because so many people on Bnet who play 1's cheat. Players can get great experience even by losing a lot on ICCup playing D- games. I know I did!
I think you're overstating things a bit. Unless mineral hacking is rampant, I think around 65% is a good general rule of thumb. And if you do know who is cheating or who isn't, simply factor in the legit games. In theory, playing against D level players on iccup should be good for new players, but in reality, not only will the D players probably be considerably better, but you won't be playing against "true" D rank players for probably the majority of the time. And if you do end up as D- or whatever, it can't make anyone feel great, whether it should or not.
In short, I find little harm in making sure you can crush battle.net before taking on a much bigger challenge.
Btw, the build against Sennin was a 1 factory, acad build. 5 marines, 2 medics, with 2 or 3 tanks and vultures with mines to follow. I researched marine range but didn't get stim. I've never seen anyone do this, so naturally I had to do it and stick to it. To those that have read the book, they would be more likely to understand this stuff.
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Yesterday and today I played some TVZ on iccup. It wasn't the prettiest thing ever, but given the circumstances, I'll take it. I went 32-4 on this account:yaaawn (server went down during rematch vs "tosszerg". Btw, I absolutely have no apm in tvz without arm rests...
You can find all of the replays here. In the first loss, he simply made more lings than I thought he did; I tried to block my ramp with 1 scv, figuring that was the appropriate number. I was wrong and that game was all about timing. If my timing is on the money, he's in trouble. If I'm off and he has decent muta micro, I'm in trouble. Irradiate should finish as the first mutas enter your base, and you need to have a few turrets ready by then, also. Fail all around, but it's been a while since I've been in this spot.
In the second loss, this is just a bad loss. For one, when I have to make a vessel and tank that early in the game, I'm going to want to take my gas at my natural very fast. Then, I'm going to want to add another rax, giving me 2, and then I want to make another factory (against hydra compositions). That's just me being inactive. The next problem was, I was complacent due to thinking I had a sufficient advantage; when your opponent goes hydras and is in the middle of the map, his drones are begging for you to "eraser" them. See my replays against "tosszerg" to see how you make a mockery of these players. Also, when I went to kill my opponent's expo, I didn't realize he had another expo. If I would have known that, I definitely would have went for his natural, and then if it made sense to attack that expo I would have sent units there. Big mistakes.
The third loss is what I would consider my only real loss. It was against an A- player who used the only strategy that makes me grimace: taking an early third with his scouting drone, negating my vulture. I think he might have been conceding his natural to me, as I had killed his first overlord and I had the means to bunker rush him. I just don't bunker rush people. I feel like unless they do what he did, then the bunker rush doesn't change anything. It just reeks of impatience and is a bad habit in my eyes. In this case, whether I wanted to take his hatchery down or not, I probably should have made a bunker just so I could pick off drones if he tried to stop it (no intention of completing the bunker).
Once he has that early third, I'm not real sure what to do. The only thing that really makes sense to me is try to use vultures with mines to clear a path to take down his third with my initial marines. Using mines to cut off reinforcements and to keep you safe from a counter. Worst case scenario would be, hopefully, he has to make a few sunkens at his third. 3 bases, 1 sunken, that's just a huge problem, let alone in the hands of an A- player.
The fourth loss... I miss timed my bunker... wasn't even really close, really. If you play against the computer enough, I guess you're bound to shoot yourself in the foot and lose, eventually.
I made my pvt replays password free and the tvz replays. All I ask is that you download the replays, and if your skill in the mu increases a rank, simply sign up on the affiliate in the "book" page. It's completely free and I imagine it only takes a minute. No one should want to pay for SC coaching, yet not many can really afford to coach for free. I think not taking advantage of this is a mistake.
To be honest, given how terran players play as a whole, combined with the difficulty in tvp to begin with, I think the only skill in pvt required against the majority of players is simply knowing what to do. If you watch the replays, pvt or tvz and you don't improve a rank (if you're C or below) within 2 weeks, simply send me your replays and I'll tell you what to do differently. There's 0 reason to struggle in pvt at low ranks unless you choose to. T vs Z is always going to take some skill, but I can help you there as it's simple enough to be taught to anyone.
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Wow I've only read the first few parts but this is a great guide. I don't even play StarCraft Broodwar anymore, but I think this may help me get above Platinum :>
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Not to steer your thread off topic but I will slightly, in the fact that you magically think winning a BO3 makes you better, let's ignore the fact that when we played a BO 3 the qualifier or two before that I won and you were quite the little BM boy. That's what, a total of 6 games? Can't see much from that.
And of course I should have won, but you got away with doing stupid stuff, so congrats to you. I look at the games as me losing rather than you winning, because you should have lost, as the worse players usually should. As for you comparing yourself to the rise of Koll and stuff... it's laughable.. clearly there's a disconnect going on, because there's a big difference between him and you, and you had no such rise at all.
But you know what, if you help out one person, then I guess this whole thread was worth it, so kudos to you in the end
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On November 02 2011 04:23 Ero-Sennin wrote: Not to steer your thread off topic but I will slightly, in the fact that you magically think winning a BO3 makes you better, let's ignore the fact that when we played a BO 3 the qualifier or two before that I won and you were quite the little BM boy. That's what, a total of 6 games? Can't see much from that.
And of course I should have won, but you got away with doing stupid stuff, so congrats to you. I look at the games as me losing rather than you winning, because you should have lost, as the worse players usually should. As for you comparing yourself to the rise of Koll and stuff... it's laughable.. clearly there's a disconnect going on, because there's a big difference between him and you, and you had no such rise at all.
But you know what, if you help out one person, then I guess this whole thread was worth it, so kudos to you in the end
Are you stupid or just a good actor? When people refer to Koll or Morrow's improvement, they generally bring it up in reference to that it only took them a few months to reach B- (what has morrow won?). If you think it didn't take at least B to qualify for WCG in 2006 or 2007, you're an idiot. In 2007, I went something like 24-1 in online qualifiers under "endlesssorrows." Funny, I don't remember you as being a good player (in fact, I don't recall you). You were probably a player that I used as a floor mat if you played in WCG during that time.
You're either an idiot or incredibly ignorant, as, if you read the book, it's not real hard to make sense out of things. One, I'm using the same "fun" strat every f'ing game. A strat that is easily counterable... Two, tvp is by far my worst worst matchup. Anytime you win a pvt, if you're feeling like a boss, you're probably a clown as it takes so little skill in comparison to tvp. If you can lose to me in tvp, I can assure you I would destroy you in pvp if I were to practice it. Me off racing pvp is probably already playing at a higher level than you.
If you can't feel like a guy with a pie in your face by now, nothing will. Get your eyes checked.
ps. in 2007, I played Mondragon 4 times, going 2-2. Could someone link me to his strategy guide so I can talk out of my ass and talk about how bad Mondragon is? Thanks.
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Btw, I think it would be fantastic if players who "crush" any given matchup were to release their ladder replays and offer thoughts. For instance, I don't know "Draw," unless he has another aka, but he's dominating pvp. At this point in SC, if you haven't reached your goals, that has to be beyond frustrating. Unless giving advice is going to interfere with winning tournaments or w/e, you may as well (not to say that players such as Draw don't help already).
I just think there's so much to gain from watching all of a player's replays in ladder. For instance, I "used" to really struggle against 14 nexus in tvp, but I watched Shaman's (either him or a terran from Norway) games and realized he was attacking with 2 fac tank and bringing 12 scvs. That really blew my mind, but it's something I incorporated on lost temple which really helped me. It's just things like that, where if you're not watching a players face all of the strategies, you're really missing out on things that could potentially help you and open your mind to new possibilities.
For a while, I've always thought that if you're going to be playing SC you should either be focused on improving or coming up with original strategies or both. Else, what's the point?
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On November 02 2011 04:23 Ero-Sennin wrote: Not to steer your thread off topic but I will slightly, in the fact that you magically think winning a BO3 makes you better, let's ignore the fact that when we played a BO 3 the qualifier or two before that I won and you were quite the little BM boy. That's what, a total of 6 games? Can't see much from that.
And of course I should have won, but you got away with doing stupid stuff, so congrats to you. I look at the games as me losing rather than you winning, because you should have lost, as the worse players usually should. As for you comparing yourself to the rise of Koll and stuff... it's laughable.. clearly there's a disconnect going on, because there's a big difference between him and you, and you had no such rise at all.
But you know what, if you help out one person, then I guess this whole thread was worth it, so kudos to you in the end
man.why u just not pm him about this ? u off topic his great work,and also bm him not reason.and i agree with playa u act really stupid this time
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Too bad it's off season. This should be getting more views.
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I thought Idra and Nony were the best SC1 foreigners?
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On November 02 2011 08:20 playa wrote: Btw, I think it would be fantastic if players who "crush" any given matchup were to release their ladder replays and offer thoughts. For instance, I don't know "Draw," unless he has another aka, but he's dominating pvp. At this point in SC, if you haven't reached your goals, that has to be beyond frustrating. Unless giving advice is going to interfere with winning tournaments or w/e, you may as well (not to say that players such as Draw don't help already).
I just think there's so much to gain from watching all of a player's replays in ladder. For instance, I "used" to really struggle against 14 nexus in tvp, but I watched Shaman's (either him or a terran from Norway) games and realized he was attacking with 2 fac tank and bringing 12 scvs. That really blew my mind, but it's something I incorporated on lost temple which really helped me. It's just things like that, where if you're not watching a players face all of the strategies, you're really missing out on things that could potentially help you and open your mind to new possibilities.
For a while, I've always thought that if you're going to be playing SC you should either be focused on improving or coming up with original strategies or both. Else, what's the point?
Draw goes by the name KidCanada and etc
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On November 02 2011 11:25 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 08:20 playa wrote: Btw, I think it would be fantastic if players who "crush" any given matchup were to release their ladder replays and offer thoughts. For instance, I don't know "Draw," unless he has another aka, but he's dominating pvp. At this point in SC, if you haven't reached your goals, that has to be beyond frustrating. Unless giving advice is going to interfere with winning tournaments or w/e, you may as well (not to say that players such as Draw don't help already).
I just think there's so much to gain from watching all of a player's replays in ladder. For instance, I "used" to really struggle against 14 nexus in tvp, but I watched Shaman's (either him or a terran from Norway) games and realized he was attacking with 2 fac tank and bringing 12 scvs. That really blew my mind, but it's something I incorporated on lost temple which really helped me. It's just things like that, where if you're not watching a players face all of the strategies, you're really missing out on things that could potentially help you and open your mind to new possibilities.
For a while, I've always thought that if you're going to be playing SC you should either be focused on improving or coming up with original strategies or both. Else, what's the point? Draw goes by the name KidCanada and etc
I was fearing that, that was his AKA, as I also had no idea who that was. Over the recent years there's been some players that I know of, but really don't know their story or anything.
If he doesn't want to release his replays, that's OK, though, because I can dominate pvp, too. lol. I played 25 pvp games today, going 24-1. I think I was hallucinating during my loss... as I canceled my gas because I thought I spotted 2 gateways. Then I lost my scouting probe to zealots... and I thought I was up against a dt drop of sorts. A snowball of failure that game was.
Account: ClownBall Replays: Here
Don't ask me about pvp, I just used a fun build that I was messing around with for a few games last season. In the past, I've played some standard pvp games at b- and b, faring well. Problem is, pvp is largely tilting as it's hard to really dominate (for non kidcanadians) as there seems to be a lot of luck involved in standard play. Eg., my opponent is able to scout me, but I'm denied of scouting. I have to make observers, and my opponent, knowing this, just quickly expands and makes a million units -- only making a robo when it's needed.
The build I used guarantees you will scout your opponent and you will be able to play "the same game," as it's more of a dictating build that lets your opponent worry about the countering stuff. And, since no one is playing like this... it's an inherent advantage, and I'm bringing out the strongest units ASAP. Great strat or not, I dunno. I just find it fun.
Btw, I also added some random videos that aren't related to SC.
To the poster who brought up the best SC foreigner question, I don't have my detective glasses on, so I can't answer veiled questions. So, I'll take it at face value. Idra, nony, draco, pj, androide and A2 are probably the players that achieved the highest skill level in the non Korean scene. While you had to be good to make it to Korea in the first place, that training really kind of made them "Korean."
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so no chance of you trying SC2?
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On November 05 2011 15:09 worosei wrote: so no chance of you trying SC2?
For me to seriously contemplate playing SC 2, it would have to be on TV and would have to be more like other sports. My friend, Gretorp, made a really good blog about teams and how your passion for something can kinda hinder you from pursuing more lucrative alternatives. Something like, until there are agents involved and the general player age is pretty young, a lot of players are happy to get anything, which doesn't allow players to get a fair shake/deal.
As long as there is pressure to win tournaments and the top players are very talented, it kinda makes one think "why not just try playing poker or get a real job?" There becomes a point where you want to make sure you're not just doing something because you can, but because you want to do it and it "adds up."
Just think about how much Koreans practiced in SC. Something like 14 hours a day? Who really wants to compete against something like that? If you're serious about competing you can't ignore that you have to be playing a similar amount of hours to remain realistic about your prospects of success.
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Dear playa, I am really thankful for your strategy book, However I have been always a low/mid D player, Originally started as terran and my mechanics are still there . Every time some one plays with me TvT , My brain just freezes and I can't do a thing ,compared to my other match up . I am not sure how should I react . There was once I knew my opponent is on one base and is making tons of dropship ,yet I decided to take a third and he sees that as a opportunity to drop tanks on my base and I immediately lost despite me having the economical advantage.
I really like playing terran but TvT has always been the downside of my game . Any advice ? I am thinking of going protoss but my mechanics are really not that strong however I like the freedom I am given in protoss having observers to scout my enemy and to flank when needed if i see a opening . PvP is not really favourable for me also but I can deal with it .
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